Do you have some ideas? This might be a fun project for me to p-roc.

I can't agree with this at all. They're entirely different experiences.

TAV - released with nearly completed code which really hasn't changed much. The rules are actually very good and I think the game is decent. All my issues with avengers are related to the layout. I think the code knocked it out of the ball park. Tons of strategy, great stacking, great sound and lighting effects. Lonnie's best game for sure. A couple bugs and missing dots on wizard mode (which I've never seen) but for the most part this game code wise is a win.

Xmen - this had to be the worst code ever released on a pinball game when it came out. And the year long journey after that was horrible. But all that aside, the game in its current state is fantastic. The current code is not just good, it's great. There are also a couple small issues in how wizard mode wraps up. I am staying on v1.5 rather than v1.51 due to this but really, the rules are awesome. I don't think xmen wil ever recover from its journey and reputation that got it to where it's at now. But the package as it stands today is great. Layout has a ton of stuff going on, game features are all integrated and used well. And the rules are well integrated.

Compare this to Star Trek. It's first release wasn't as bad as say xmen. And the game as it stands has ok rules. The game is fun. Unfortunately, the code is just missing something that makes for exciting pinball. I'm not great a figuring out why it's not great. I think I might want to rewrite these rules as a fun hobby project if it doesn't get sorted out. I think the layout is one of the smoothest playing funniest layouts and the theme is a winner for me.

I'm sorry but I cannot agree with this. Woz code was not good on release. It took a long long time to get good. And I don't think the WoZ code is anywhere near as awesome as spiderman, acdc, or metallica code. I think it's on par with maybe lord of the rings or simpsons code but not better. I'm sorry but this just doesn't seem like a fair statement at all

Has Lyman ever actually said canon modes are in the works? It's my belief that he just scrapped these in favor of better ideas. The truth is, if he had implemented canon inserts (just because the designer put the inserts there) and left out say VIP pass, something the designer never conceived of, people would consider the game complete. Instead he went off his own direction and created a master piece. His reward? People complaining that the game isn't done because some inserts aren't used. Honestly, there's more in the code of Acdc as it is than most Bally / williams games. I'll take code the quality of acdc any day. And as long as people complain about acdc code, then if I were stern, I would ignore the whole lot feeling that there's no pleasing anyone.

Yes. And both are awesome now.

Have you honestly played xmen LE enough with latest code? Or are you just judging it based on how it use to play with the understanding of the changes? I think it really got awesome. Deadpool helps you enough to progress better and modes like danger room are really well implemented and fun.

Ok. Well thought out response with decent points. The three of us that bought the game out here are happy with the outcome of the code. One of us sold early and is looking to buy the game back now.

Most the games in the 90s really didn't have near the depth either. It started getting more advanced around the wpc95 times but some of those are somewhat unfinished (by the standards we apply to stern games being unfinished).

Actually avengers shipped with fantastic software and it hasn't changed much at all. It's a shame you're having issues with your game avengers took a lot of tweaking to get to play right. But they're not code issues. It's not really relevant to this thread. There are plenty of tweak avengers threads with lots of good suggestions in them. I know I got mine playing great.