(Topic ID: 297219)

Stern Trident

By Newbee

2 years ago


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    #1 2 years ago

    I have an issue with a Stern Trident sound problem. After testing the sound board SB-100 all voltages ok but have narrowed it down to the MPU. I can start the machine but with no sound disconnect J4 on the MPU and plug it back in and starts to work. As soon as I shut the machine off and turn back on there is no sound again until i unplug J4. Resoldered pins, cleaned connectors, reflowed solder etc. no change. any Ideas

    #2 2 years ago
    Quoted from Newbee:

    I can start the machine but with no sound disconnect J4 on the MPU and plug it back in and starts to work

    Could you mean J5?
    There is a "bypass" line to the LM380s (pin 1) that can turn off sound and might be what you're experiencing.
    Can you measure the voltage on pin 1 of U20 & U21 when it's working/not working and see if there's a correlation?

    #3 2 years ago

    I checked Pin#1 on U20, there is no U21, when the sound was working the voltage was the same as when it was not working (1.3 volts) and it is J4 that I unplug as it supplies the power to the MPU resets and then the sound works again.

    #4 2 years ago
    Quoted from Newbee:

    I checked Pin#1 on U20, there is no U21, when the sound was working the voltage was the same as when it was not working (1.3 volts) and it is J4 that I unplug as it supplies the power to the MPU resets and then the sound works again.

    Sorry - I should have been more clear. I know you said that you've narrowed it to the MPU, but I was talking about U20 & U21 on the SB-100. When I've had SB-100s that were intermittent with sound/no sound, it usually came down to either connectors (which you said you've reflowed) or the bypass on the LM380s on the SB-100. When the machine boots up, the SB-100 sound is suppressed until it sees a valid "write" to address 0x00A0. That triggers transistor Q6 on the SB-100 to un-bypass the amplifiers.

    So, my first step in diagnosing would be to see if I have about 8V going between Q6 and U20 & U21 on the SB-100. If that's happening, then I know that the SB-100 is getting all the address, R/W, and VMA information that it needs to properly work.

    This is a good place to measure the output of Q6
    IMG_3143 (resized).jpegIMG_3143 (resized).jpeg

    This is what the voltage of Q6 should look like when the machine resets and then plays its starting tune
    IMG_3145 (resized).jpegIMG_3145 (resized).jpeg

    #5 2 years ago

    Perfect, thanks for the clarification, will try tonight and let you know, I will look again at the sb-100 schematic as well.

    #6 2 years ago

    You are right when there is no sound there is 0 volts on the U20 and U21 pin 1, but when the sound is working there is 8 volts. I take it that you were suggesting there is an issue with the LM380 not triggering when needed

    #7 2 years ago
    Quoted from Newbee:

    an issue with the LM380 not triggering when needed

    Yes, it sounds like the "bypass" line of the LM380 is never lifting, so the amps aren't putting out sound.
    The bypass signal is generated by Q6 on the SB-100 (which is a 2N3904), and that's controlled by one of the JK flip flops on U6.
    The next part is difficult to pin down without a logic probe.
    Depending on your board revision, your board might be clearing the flip flop (bypassing the amp) with a low signal on RESET (A4J5:pin25).
    If you have a logic probe, I would look for these signals on the SB-100s U6:
    1) U6:Pin 10 should be high almost immediately after power goes on
    2) U6:Pin 6 should be low at power-on and then go high after the 7th flash of the MPU
    3) U6:Pin 9 should be low, but pulse whenever there's a sound call (these pulses are in the microsecond range, so you need a logic probe or scope to see them)

    If you see all those signals, the issue could be Q6 on the SB-100. If you don't see the pulse on U6:Pin 9, then the issue could be U1 or U2.

    All of this assumes that you have good connection between the SB-100 J1 and A4J5 pins: 10, 13, 15, 17, 23, 26, 25, and 27 (all of these are involved with the bypass signal to the amps)

    Anyway, my prime suspect at this point is U6. I've seen those go bad before.
    If you want a cheap and dirty solution, you can clip the end of R68 that's closest to U6 and tie it to 5V. The machine will make noise at startup until the 7th flash, but the sound will be okay after that. Of course if that doesn't work then you definitely have a bad Q6.

    #8 2 years ago

    Your instruction is perfect, I can follow that. I dont have a probe or an oscilloscope at this time but have access to them and get them from work. I will try the bypass to start and see how bad the noise is if that is the problem.
    Thanks a bunch for this, much appreciated.

    #9 2 years ago
    Quoted from Newbee:

    Your instruction is perfect, I can follow that. I dont have a probe or an oscilloscope at this time but have access to them and get them from work. I will try the bypass to start and see how bad the noise is if that is the problem.
    Thanks a bunch for this, much appreciated.

    No worries - let me know how it turns out.
    If you're ever interested in modding, I did a re-code of Trident last year that I think turned out well:

    #10 2 years ago

    That is wicked, thanks for sharing that. I will look you up on youtube. This is just a hobby of mine I don't get right into the re programming but might be interested in that though.

    #11 2 years ago

    Checked with the logic probe U6 pin 10 is low with power on even when reset.
    U6 pin 6 Low with power on and Low after 7th flash
    U6 Pin 9 is Low and no pulse at sound
    If I leave the machine overnight and turn on sound works fine

    #12 2 years ago
    Quoted from Newbee:

    Checked with the logic probe U6 pin 10 is low with power on even when reset.
    U6 pin 6 Low with power on and Low after 7th flash
    U6 Pin 9 is Low and no pulse at sound
    If I leave the machine overnight and turn on sound works fine

    Cool. Two questions:
    1) What Rev of the board do you have? There are some pictures here: https://www.techdose.com/projects/Stern-Pinball-SB100-Sound-Board/346/page2.html
    2) Are those readings the same if you have sound / no sound?

    #13 2 years ago

    Rev C-1 Don.t know if I've done something stupid, Changed U1 all I got was a bunch of noise. So i changed it back and now nothing. Board powers up but thats it

    #14 2 years ago

    Yes both same sound or no sound on the logic probe

    #15 2 years ago
    Quoted from Newbee:

    Rev C-1 Don.t know if I've done something stupid, Changed U1 all I got was a bunch of noise. So i changed it back and now nothing. Board powers up but thats it

    Weird. I would probably bench test U1 and see if that's the issue or if perhaps a trace got opened/shorted.

    The last thing that made sense to me in this thread was:
    > there is 0 volts on the U20 and U21 pin 1, but when the sound is working there is 8 volts

    That really suggests that there was a problem with either
    1) the cable (or connector pins)
    2) Q6
    3) U6
    4) U2
    or
    5) U1

    But for any of those things, I would have expected the signals on U6 to be different with sound / no sound. The signals you have on U6 (or had before the U1 issue), don't make any sense to me with a board that sometimes works...

    #16 2 years ago

    I knocked off a tiny piece of solder line couldn't see it with the naked eye, found it under microscope. So basically back to where I was at. I had changed Q6 and even did the 5Volt short cut from the resistor didn't work. I am going to try U1 and U2 again

    #17 2 years ago

    Have changed U1,U2,Q6. This time getting better readings on U6.
    Power on(no sound) | Reset 7th flash
    Pin10 Low | Low
    Pin 6 High | Low
    Pin 9 Low | Low

    So I think maybe U6 is the last thing, tested the cable, re-soldered etc.
    All I have is a MB74LS107 chip and was trying to find a datasheet to see if it was the same as the 74107

    Thanks again you have been an amazing amount of help

    #18 2 years ago

    I'm still not understanding why you're not getting a pulse on pin 9 -- seems like you've eliminated all the possible causes.
    Regardless, it really looks like your U6 is doing the right thing now.
    When U6:Pin 6 is high, it basically turns Q6 into a short, which mutes the LM380s.
    Then, after the 7th flash, when U6:Pin 6 goes low, Q6 doesn't short the bypass of the 380s, so you should get sound.
    Like you said earlier, when you have 0 voltes to pin 1 of U20 and U21, you have no sound. 8 volts and it works.

    I know you've replaced Q6 already, but I'm wondering if you would consider running an experiment. The top leg of Q6 (blue arrow in this picture)
    IMG_3143 (resized).jpegIMG_3143 (resized).jpeg

    Is the final stop in the chain of components that bypasses the LM380s. If you could pull just that one leg (the top one), the machine should start making noise as soon as you turn on power. Basically, there would be nothing telling the amps to stay quiet until everything is booted.

    If pulling that leg reliably gets you sound, and U6:pin 6 goes from high to low after the 7th flash, then the only problem could be R67, R68, or Q6.

    Normally, these cards are not nearly this difficult to diagnose!
    I had one catch on fire and it was easier to fix than yours.

    Screen Shot 2021-07-29 at 9.21.06 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-07-29 at 9.21.06 PM (resized).png
    #19 2 years ago
    Quoted from DickHamill:

    Then, after the 7th flash, when U6:Pin 6 goes low,

    Actually U6 pin 6 will go low almost immediately after power on. It's done in the first handful of instructions executed on boot-up.

    #20 2 years ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    Actually U6 pin 6 will go low almost immediately after power on. It's done in the first handful of instructions executed on boot-up.

    Hi Quench - here's a video of what happens on my Trident's REV C-1 SB-100 sound card (pin 6 goes low only after the 7th flash):

    I think I understand why you think that it would go low immediately. There's a line very early in the code that sends a 00 to M00A0
    CLRA *15E4: 4F 'O'
    STAA M00A0 *15E5: 97 A0 '..'
    (the machine boots to 15E0)
    But, as you can see in the video, that write instruction doesn't trigger U6.
    Rev C-1 of the sound card doesn't use the /RESET line, even though the schematics show it. I think there's an RC circuit on there building charge for a moment that delays the rise of pin 10. It's just a guess, but that's my only explanation as to why the card ignores the first write command.

    #21 2 years ago

    Ah, thanks for that. Good call. Yeah the longer delay of the RC circuit clearing U6 on power-up probably makes that very early write to $00A0 ineffective.

    I'm pretty sure I have a rev C SB-100 schematic somewhere. I'll try and dig it up tomorrow to scan.

    #22 2 years ago

    When I started the machine this morning pin 6 was high and low on 7th flash and started normally with sound(forgot to video), turn off the machine and start then locks on high with no sound, pull J4 on MPU Pin 6 goes low and then starts ok

    #23 2 years ago

    U6 was the culprit,change it out and all sound works as it should. Thanks again for all the help!!!

    #24 2 years ago
    Quoted from Newbee:

    U6 was the culprit,change it out and all sound works as it should. Thanks again for all the help!!!

    That's great news! Congrats!

    #25 2 years ago

    Now I have it running, having an issue with the flippers failing, it has a NVRAM WEEBLY board. have 43 volts all pop bumpers work flippers just fail after some use. Have to do some research

    #26 2 years ago

    That was an easy one bad PIA, had some new ones

    #27 2 years ago
    Quoted from Newbee:

    That was an easy one bad PIA, had some new ones

    Congrats again, then!

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