(Topic ID: 257038)
Linked Games
Monopoly
Stern, 2001-
Stranger Things (LE)
Stern, 2019
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Stranger Things (Premium)
Stern, 2019
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Stranger Things (Pro)
Stern, 2019
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Viper Night Drivin'
Sega, 1998
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I like that Stern has teamed up with Netflix and I think this game could be stellar. Will they incorporate the upside down? I would like to see a full size playfield under the main playfield with an ocular lens to allow viewer to see well. What also excites me is the potential sounds from the epic soundtracks from the series. I have not been this excited about sounds on a pinball machine since TNA was released. The keyboard synth gives me goose bumps when I listen to it, and really gets me excited about this theme. If this machine plays well and is fun for me, I think the first thing I would do is add a Polk sub to it. I can already picture the low bass tones punching through the sub speaker giving the player a great vibe while playing.
Quoted from Krupps4:It’s just a strong rumor at this point
The hype is strong with this one.pngQuoted from chuckwurt:I sure hope so! I originally thought a black hole or haunted house like lower playfield but that sacrifices too much of the main level of the game.
It really depends if they could do it right. If you had an ocular lens to displace then you should be able to squeeze a larger playfield in there. I did not care for the mini-playfield they did on Munsters, especially with the mini-pinballs. Would really want full size balls, and some kind of multi-layer?
I also think color changing RGB if incorporated right could be awesome for Christmas light bulbs? Probably incorporated into playfield inserts?
Quoted from thedarkknight77:I am more excited to see what Brian Eddie does.
I too am excited to see what Brian does. I guarantee it will not be a typical Stern fan layout rehashed design-or at least I hope it's not.
Quoted from chuckwurt:crazy lighting to transform the game?
That actually sounds interesting to me, they could totally do both worlds with just the change in GI lighting 
Quoted from chuckwurt:If there are magnets hopefully they are no where near the flippers.
I know some people are not fans of magnets near the flippers, but some of my favorite games incorporate magnets near flippers. I love the randomness from magnetic sligns on Ghostbusters and other games like Ripley's, X-MEN, Houdini, etc. where the ball is projected in a manner that makes you flail to keep control. I love randomness-it adds a whole other dimension to game play.
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:BoM and profit margin has been known to compromise a good theme one way or the other.
I disagree. I think it is hit or miss for Stern. Ghostbusters, Star Wars, and Jurassic Park-all turned out fantastic.
I really want to stay positive and optimistic on this one. I am really excited for Brian and think he has had some good time to get this one right. I have high hopes I guess and am excited to see what he came up with.
Quoted from mrclean:-LED blinking Christmas lights that WILL communicates with you
I keep thinking the Christmas lights will be the inserts running up the playfield and you have to make certain shots to advance message up the chain of lights in order to communicate with the other side?
Quoted from corvair61:Just locked in my spot for an LE. BOOM
Going in blind
-I like your style!
Live Dangerously..jpgI am sure Eleven will be somewhere on the playfield and magnets will be present? I also thought Star Wars was going to have magnets on the playfield for Darth Vader to use his force-but I was wrong on that one.
Quoted from J85M:Yeah no lower playfield, more often than not they suck.
The only way it would be cool is if it was done Krull style. I really do not see that happening because of the required BOM. I now have my fingers crossed that it will be changes in GI lighting as discussed. Not interested in mini-playfields.
Quoted from J85M:Magnet save
If they do a magnet save-please, please do not locate the button on the lock down bar 
Quoted from chuckwurt:Have you played Krull?
I have not had the pleasure of playing one yet. I just know that the mini-playfields are annoying to me. I like mini-pass through playfields like WH20 and Elvis but I got rid of my LUCI just because of the mini playfield.
I walked around the house all weekend depressed.(My wife kept telling me-it's just pinball) I have been chopping at the bit for Scott's next game that has been in the works for two years. I was really disappointed by the choice of theme, and it crushed my dreams. I do not watch adult cartoons and really do not see myself getting into it-as much as I really want to. Trying to shift my focus elsewhere-ie. Stranger Things. I also got a glimmer of hope for Led Zeppelin not being a re-skin, that really got my juices flowing. So many epic games coming out I really need to figure out what is good for me. Need to start thinning the herd or saving up-lots of good stuff on the horizon. Again-I really am excited to see what Eddy came up with-so excited!
Quoted from delt31:seriously - if pinball has that much of an effect on you, I would take a break. Relax and enjoy something else....
The thought has crossed my mind-this shit is worse than crack sometimes.
Quoted from Whysnow:I understand that you think of them as adult cartoons
Just not into adult cartoons-even when the humor is there. Not sure what it is but adult cartoons do nothing for me. I actually was surprised to see you get into it- I know you are not into TV. I also know that you would be willing to overlook to support Spooky-which is cool.
Quoted from Whysnow:If you want me to mail you season 1 of R&M on DVD, I would be happy to
I really do appreciate the gesture, but I watched R and M all weekend trying to see what all the fuss was about-I actually found it to be toilet humor and not entertaining to me. You have to like what is personal to you-I am big into theme(unless it is a $2300 Barbwire that plays well). There are so many games with good themes and good gameplay that we have choices now. I am starting to run out of room and really need to pick and choose wisely now. Wish I could own them all, but now I go with themes that I can relate to.
Sorry for the soapbox talk-back to our regular scheduled programming-Stranger Things.
Quoted from usandthem:User controlled magnets (Eleven's telekinesis), Starcourt Mall mini playfield, Sheriff Hopper video mode (Dodging demogorgons in his Chevy Blazer), portal to the Upside Down that you have to close.
Love the idea with player controlled magnets. I was wondering how it would be to have player controlled magnetic slings? Starcourt Mall mini playfield-please no. I don't know what it is but mini-playfields feel gimmicky to me. Feels like I am playing an old mini Tomy pinball as a kid-fun for 15 seconds. Video mode with dodging demogorgons would be cool. Would also be cool for kids to be riding BMX bikes through forest and having to hit obstacles left and right with objects, kinda like throwing the newspaper on Paperboy. Portal to upside down would be really cool with a subway ramp that feeds down to flippers and GI lighting goes berserk with cool pink-purple lighting? Man I hope we don't hype this game up too much and set ourselves up for disappointment.
Quoted from chuckwurt:I just hope Eddy is closer to shadows layout than MMs or AFMs. Can’t wait to see this thing!
Me too!
I love Stern games and they really deliver for me. As you know GOT turned out to be a masterpiece without the 'Art' and without the 'Toys'. It does make a game better with great art and more toys but for me it is mainly about gameplay. I am sure people will find something to complain about-including myself but I really think Eddy will surprise us with some good stuff and the game play will be stellar.
Do you guys ever walk through a store and see something that catches your eye-only because you think it might make a cool pinball mod? Walking through Target the other night I spotted some cool die cast Stranger Things toys: 'Billy's Z28 Camaro' and 'Sheriff Hopper's Chevy Blazer'...
Hoppers Chevy Blazer.pngBilly's z28 Camaro.pngQuoted from usandthem:Did you grab them? You know that Stern's will be flat plastics, if they even show up in the game.
I almost bought them but am waiting to see if they would be a good fit or not? Hearing there is a big difference between Pro-to Premium/LE. The McFarlane figures would also be cool if there was room. I really like the McFarlane Eleven and the Dustin and Dart...
McFarlane Dustin and Dart.jpgMcfarlane Eleven.jpgMcfarlane Starnger Things figures.jpg
Quoted from Pinballer67:you would even see some Rick & Morty spots go up for sale.
I do not believe people will bail out of R and M for another machine. Most of them are die hard fans of the show and are willing to wait year/s to get a R and M machine.
Yes because of Spooky's business model, you will see R and M spots selling for a premium. The "I want it now" people will pay a premium to be one of the first to get one and try and jump the line. I do not think Stern's competitors really pose a threat. Stern sells 10,000+ games a year, 750 machines is not even 1/10 of their business. People are constantly comparing the different manufacturers and how they should time their release dates accordingly. Stern does what Stern does and they do it well. It seems like they really do not pay attention to what the competitors are doing because they are killing it. To be honest I really like their business model. Make a game, start shipping it to distributors, then bam-announce and start selling them the next day.
-I love these times on Pinside waiting for the new release-the juice is loose.
Quoted from chuckwurt:If not today, I say before Friday this week.
Well...were waiting.gif
Quoted from Coz:I was told their is a distributor reveal tomorrow.
So does that mean we will see the leaked pics today 
Wow way to go Stern!
Very innovative and different. Cant wait to play it and I really think code will be amazing on this one. Wondering what the Pro will be like?
Great job Stern!
Quoted from chuckwurt:All comes down to how fun the rule set is
Code is going to make or break this game
Quoted from chuckwurt:The pro has no projector. No white screen. Printed art instead.
Wondering why they would put a big blank screen in pro if there is no projector?
Is there a blank screen with printed art?
Quoted from bigd1979:For the ramp?
Yea I guess, but I would think it would look out of place without the projector?
Also wondering if you get ramp wear on pf, and if plastic Demo takes tons of hits and is subject to premature wear? Also looks like Demo may not be a gimme shot-actually looks difficult getting it in that hole(that's what she said)?
Looks great-can't wait to see some gameplay hopefully Monday?
Signing off-but will leave this tasty nugget-C418 Remix...
Quoted from frolic:so I wonder if this will be held until after the new year
The cat is out of the bag-Stern will get these all delivered to distributors asap(if not already delivered) and they will still make CES the first show reveal.
Excited to see the Pro play and wondering what it will play like? Not sure about huge screen taking up valuable real estate with no projector? Could be an eye sore or could be stellar-time will tell.
Quoted from Whysnow:Give more content each day like presents.
It will give us something to think about over the Holiday.
-Is it just me, or are you thinking more about pinball releases-rather than the upcoming Holiday and presents under the tree?
-My wife asking me what I want for Christmas? I said I really do not need anything-I am set.
-Well now that I think of it-maybe I would take a Stranger Things Pinball? 
Quoted from fisherdaman:I'm sure Stranger things is going to be a huge hit for stern
I hope so and I really think it will be a great game for location pinball. I think the theme will attract multiple generations and should be a good earner for ops?
Quoted from sohchx:we dodged a bullet buying a NIB DP recently due to the current "Cleargate" fiasco. All is well currently though
Yes one thing I have learned through these years is patience. I really wanted a Jurassic Park but I am glad I held off and did not have to deal with pf replacement issues, etc.(been there-done that). Now I want a JP LE but I really do not want to take the $1000-$2000 hit on one. Most of the Stern LE's have been taking a considerable hit in resale over the years and it looks like 6 months to a year later you can get a good value on a nice low play HUO. I have too many games that I already cannot play enough of. Now I just wait until the dust settles and for the game to go through the quality control issues cycle and for the game to take the secondary market depreciation hit. In the meantime I will support local OP's with games on locations.
Quoted from PanzerFreak:I'm not sure what translite looks worse, GOT Pro or ST Pro? Would rather see pro artwork match the premium at least.
Yes I like the Premium translight, but that Pro one is fugly. Look how freaky Eleven looks all lit up in Pink-looks cheesy to me.
Quoted from captainadam_21:Did they fix the pooling?
I am more concerned with ghosting inserts,etc. With how many inserts are on this game-if they start ghosting or raising Stern will have their hands full.
Holy inserts Batman!
Quoted from PanzerFreak:Who wants to be one of the first to own a Stranger Things and report if there are any playfield issues?!
AD wink.gifQuoted from Whysnow:The labia kind of help direct it into the hole.
I dont know this show but I assume you really want to shove your balls in it to kill it?
Laughing...gif
Quoted from bigd1979:Not bad for .65 code
Lots of modes for sure, the isolation mode would be even better with a hurry up timer count down on ramps where certain ramps disappear if you do not hit them in time.
Quoted from Russell:You getting one, Pinmister?
I am interested for sure but call me crazy- I want to play it first, and want to see the Premium/LE in action in person. I have a feeling the upside down mode will be awesome with the projector. I am impressed with what I see so far, it looks like a fun game. BTW-looking forward to coming down and playing your R & M when you get it.
Quoted from screaminr:If it was up to me I would go for something like this .
That's what I am talking about-looks good.
Quoted from kermit24:Something tells me the projected content across a variety of targets and the "screen" will immerse you into the theme a lot more.
To this day I am still impressed with Klingon multi-ball laser mode on Star Trek and I really am happy I choose the LE version of that title. The projector on SRT should make it really pop, especially with upside down debree flakes flying in the air.
Quoted from Rondogg:It would be interesting to see which people posting negative comments on Stranger Things also have a place in line for Rick and Morty.
I do find it humorous how people try and make everything into a competition. Can't we all just love pinball?
We are talking about apples and oranges-and I happen to love both!
Quoted from TomGWI:I find it interesting people think this game is special when the layout has been done a trillion times.
It has been done because it is popular. Only so much you can do with a pinball table. I personally have not been able to get into JJP games because they pack too much stuff in their games with too many modes and it makes them play clunky to me. I have lots of games that are not fan layout and honestly I do not play them nearly as much as my fan layout titles. Do I love my Ripley's-absolutely, but do I play a ton more Metallica-yes. My only complaint today is the useless pop bumpers located in upper corner that do nothing. When Star Wars and GOT came out I ripped them-I felt they were just another cookie-cutter Stern with lack of innovation and art. Then I actually played them and had a huge smile on my face the entire time. That is what makes pinball great is everyone has their own preferences and taste. I like a unique table every so often, but I find that I do prefer the typical fan layout.
Code is going to make me love or just like this title. Having 40 modes, etc. is great but if every mode is the same I feel like it would get repetitive quickly. How will the video mode be? If they do not even have a video mode in beta code I am not sure how quickly a cool video mode can be produced? How will they implement the button on lock down bar into code that will be enjoyable? Hurry take your hands off flippers and bash the demo dogs? I really like some of the modes but in order to capture my interest they will need to do something with linear mode rules. They have chosen to randomize modes but now I want to see some randomness in mode progression. Here is what I am thinking...during Isolation mode have the lit shots keep multiplying every five seconds or so. The only way to reduce lit shots and battle the timer is to complete certain lit shots within a set time frame. Once you get down to last shot and complete-the game goes crazy with GI strobe effect. Or on Burn it Back mode, you need to hit one lit shot that rotates around the playfield until you reach a certain number of lit shots. They could make this game absolutely stellar with a few tweaks in code imo.
Watching video again-man they need to do something with repetitive 'Jackpot' call-out? Reminds me of Batman-not in a good way.
Jackpot
Jackpot
Jackpot
Quoted from chuckwurt:For those that are disappointed so far. What were some of the things physically that you’d wish they had done?
I really am not disappointed I am just really waiting to see how it all comes together. One thing I have noticed with certain Sterns is they seem to get better with age and really tend to grow on you.
My critic: I would have liked to see interactive magnets on the playfield-not some gimmicky backboard lock. Total waste of magnet potential with Eleven.
-Pop bumpers that again do nothing? Can we just get rid of them if they want to shove in upper corner? Weak sauce
-Does every game have to have a center button on lock down bar now? Why?
-Felt they should have done something different with Pro with huge screen covered with decal? Maybe have Demogorgon pop up out of playfield like Monger on IM? Looks a little out of place imo
-Are there too many modes and inserts? Will anyone be able to get to Wizard within 45 minutes? I like deep games, just wondering if this one is too deep(is that possible?) Time will tell
I do love the full spectrum of video and sound assets that they are utilizing and code can make this game really shine. Overall the pluses outweigh the negatives so far for me. It is on my radar
Quoted from DCP:You lucky effers in Colorado can play it TODAY!!!
Donavan I will be checking this game out this afternoon 
Quoted from chuckwurt:What were some of the things physically that you’d wish they had done?
I forgot to add onto mnpinball's point about how there should have been pop-ups like Nightcrawlers on X-MEN or Trolls on MM. Pop-up Demo Dogs would have been awesome-and a homage to MM.
Quoted from chuckwurt:I’ve played the game over 100 times and got it in the mouth of the demogorgon less than ten times
Just got some good time on the game and I hit the Demogorgon mouth on the first shot nearly every time. I actually learned the exact position from cradle and hit it with no issues multiple times.
Hitting the Demogorgon in one shot and having gate lift back up was not entertaining and was quite underwhelming.
Quoted from pinmister:Hitting the Demogorgon in one shot and having gate lift back up was not entertaining and was quite underwhelming.
Was trying to think what would make it better? Maybe if they changed to three strikes into hole? Add a shaker to increase the feeling? Or having the Premium/LE projecting upside down to immerse you into experience? Something is missing with the Pro, where gate goes down and you simply make a shot up the ramp and bam it is over? I need something to bash like Iron Monger, or Sparky or even Groot. Again this is another example of a possible code tweak that will increase the enjoyment of the game.
I played on location and it was so loud I could not hear any sounds or call-outs. Will need to experience full sounds experience in a home environment.
Quoted from chuckwurt:Make the player think twice about shooting it, but not completely avoid it either.
The stand ups located right in the middle are definitely risk vs reward shots with sdtm potential and had me second guessing when to hit them.
Forgot to mention this machine is a fast flow monster. 
I also liked that Stern changed the ugly bright yellow cards to black with Christmas lights around edges. Hopefully a small change they will continue with for future titles?
I really want this game to be stellar. I keep thinking some code tweaks will totally change this game for the better. This game has a great theme, good layout, awesome sounds, now just needs polished code. It feels flat when you can hit Demogorgon in one shot and screen just pops back up and when all of the modes feel the same. Yes there are different animations and mode themes but what about shot variety? I want it to feel like you are taking a journey like Star Wars and LOTR, not just completing generic modes over and over.
Stern if you guys are reading this here are my suggestions: Please make Demogorgon have some substance by coding to allow three completed shots into mouth(at least make it a challenge and entertaining). Also feeling a shaker will be a must on this title for Demogorgon to come to life.
Second is adding hurry-ups and randomizing mode shot progression. Have a couple modes where ramps appear or disappear with timer?, have lit shot change randomly(this would be really cool with projector on ramps alternating back and forth). Add some spice into modes so they all do not become generic and blend together. What gave me this idea was picking up a Stern NBA recently. One of the modes on the game is H-O-R-S-E. It is a simple yet amazingly fun mode where you have to complete a certain rotating lit shot to spell H-O-R-S-E. So simple, yet so fun!
Also GI during upside down mode seems a little flat? I suggest having purple GI's alternate on and off randomly to give it more depth? Right now it just changes to a light purple hugh and is not that dramatic.
This game has so much potential, and I really hope the code(including video mode) will become great! -Watching
Quoted from chuckwurt:Every mode has different shots and orders of shots to hit. Which ones specifically feel the same?
They all feel the same, yes they all have certain lit shots to hit-rinse and repeat
Quoted from chuckwurt:So does LOTR. haha.
Big difference is LOTR does not have 40 modes, if they do not do something it will get old quick for me. Hitting lit shots over and over with no variety for 40 modes does not sound like a journey to me-it sounds more like torture.
Quoted from kpg:I'll be watching it progress from the sidelines
I hear you and I will be watching as well. I really need to experience the Premium/LE in a home environment in order to make a true decision. I do prefer the Premium art the best on this one and if Cleland does a sweet music mix it will push this game over the top with sounds. Was trying to think of what mods would be cool for the Premium/LE and I actually thought it looks like a drive in movie theatre screen so maybe a drive in movie theatre sign with Billy's Camaro off to the side on top of one of the ramps?
Billy's z28 Camaro.pngQuoted from chuckwurt:I heard they are scrapping the premium and LE models because nothing works. Only Pro this time around.
Billy gif.gifQuoted from kermit24:The 12/23 launch date was planned for a long time.
Yes Gary and the executives have set schedules for releases and designers must have a working game by then. What they do not have is decent code at launch for most titles,that is what feels rushed to me. I know they are scrambling right now to get code updated for Premium/LE projector,etc. They probably had like 3 static repeating images done and knew if they released it pre-maturely it would not be taken well. Batman 66 was the worse followed closely by GOTG. Having deadlines is great to keep up with sales projections but horrible for the design team having to try and code last minute.
Quoted from tiesmasc:Definitely seems like the game needs to have adjustments for positioning of the demogorgon to make the shot makeable
Wow I keep hearing how hard it is to hit and I felt it was too easy to hit? I was successful from cradle on right flipper and shooting right before ball hit center of flipper. Maybe the machine was set up right or I was just lucky?
Reminds me of all the people complaining about how right ramp on Ghostbusters is impossible. I literally have never had an issue with hitting it? Machine not set up properly, luck, or just aiming right?
Quoted from chuckwurt:it takes multiple gullet hits
Yes we need more gullet hits or have like a ten second hurry-up timer countdown?
Quoted from bemmett:before my game gets here
Congrats on the game-now sell me your JP LE for $7500 
Quoted from bemmett:No unfortunately the sentiment on this game is positive
JP is a turd and you need to sell it to me for a good price
Jedi mind trick..gifQuoted from delt31:I actually got the ball in the hole many times
That's what she said.gifI think the Iced Blue Candy powder with some t-molding to match around back box would look sharp. Also thought it would be interesting if you could do under cabinet lighting that shines the underworld under the machine? I have a rotating green and yellow mystic light under my Ghostbusters that gives off a pretty cool effect.
Quoted from yancy:The art is vivid & colorful; let the armor be a frame.
Or, you know, go fucking crazy. Whichevs.
This game is so bright and vivid I think some powder would really make it pop. Question is-Iced Candy Blue with art blades or full chrome job with mirror blades?-bling bling
Quoted from delt31:I'm heading over to the stranger things owners thread..... Can't deal with DLC nonsense.
It's all good. This is a speculation thread and is free to discuss anything people want to talk about. DLC, R & M v.s. SRT, Pizza, etc. This thread will eventually fade away and people will move to the club thread. I find it amusing listening to all the conversations-both good and bad. We are all waiting for Premium/LE gameplay reveal so why not have random discussions to make the time go by.
Funny everyone talking about DLC and I am just concerned with Stern churning out decent code to keep up with releases and hoping they can thrive and just keep the doors open. My concern for the future is support for proprietary node boards and cpu's-not even thinking about DLC possibilities.
All this talk about the projector and if it will make the game great or not? The projector to me is the cherry on the cake, and will not make or break the gameplay. It will add to the experience for sure but what will make this game shine is the integration of code with clips, objectives, sounds and flow(the overall package). Playing the Pro with beta code in a loud location will not be a true testament to this games potential. I think this game will really be a great game for the home environment and the music and sounds will really pump through an external sub. This game cranked up in a dark room should wow people just like a decked out Tron or a TNA.
Meanwhile I am just hanging out and cant wait to see the projector in action
Waiting.jpg
Quoted from Russell:I think they’ll give it a try because of the theme, and then walk away in frustration.
Totally agree, this game will kick novice players in the nuts. Game is super fast, drops right in middle with huge risk of sdtm, if they get to Demogorgon and do not aim correctly-it will drop sdtm, if ball gets near sides with wide open outlanes from factory-good luck. On location it will be difficult to hear sounds and call-outs and not sure how lighting will affect projector, but this game should be really deep and immersive in a home environment for sure.
Quoted from Micky:Yeah that's just creepy
Eleven candle is also a little creepy...
Eleven candle.gifQuoted from frankmac:Works for me!
Aghhhhh! Looks washed out and does not look that good imo.
-Congrats by the way on the pick up!
Now can someone please make an alternative translight for the Pro owners asap!
SRT Translight.jpg
I started to notice the deep 'craters' in my Star Trek LE and thought it was a defective playfield. Since then we have had numerous discussions about dimpling or cratering and what I believe is happening is not necessarily Stern's, JJP's, or Spooky's fault. I believe the reason we are seeing a drastic difference between playfield quality between the decades has to do with the quality of the wood and changes in the chemicals used for clear-coat. Old growth forest v.s. new growth(night and day difference) forest make it difficult to source high quality specimens. EPA regulations have outlawed many chemicals that were used in the 90's for clear-coating, leaving companies to try and find alternatives(not the same). I believe the older playfields that are holding up well typically used a harder more dense plywood layer than what they are using today. Today's wood and clear coat do not feel as dense and thus the dimples become craters. People will argue that it is normal and over time they will even out. Ok that is true but what is going on is the dimples have become deeper and in turn it takes a lot longer and a lot more plays to see that playfield even out. It is difficult for a home owner to put 10,000 games on a machine to level out the craters-so in the meantime craters are here to stay and will continue to be an eye sore. My .02
Quoted from Rarehero:Cratering like this will never even out. Even after tens of thousands of plays.
Where the hell is vid1900- we have another dimplegate on our hands 
Quoted from Rarehero:We don’t need gaslighters to tell us not to believe what we see with our own eyes.
What is your solution?
I believe the manufacturers are doing everything they can to produce high quality playfields. Ghostbusters cost Stern a shit ton of money for quality control, do you not think they have done everything to avoid another debacle?
I guess I have grown to accept craters in playfields and still enjoy supporting and buying NIB machines. I put my magnifying glass back in the drawer where it belongs.
Quoted from branlon8:I am of the belief that properly selected materials will solve this.
One day a fellow friend(pinsider) and I were having this discussion about the playfield quality of today. He suggested switching to a high density plastic playfield. Would a high density polyethylene (HDPE) be a viable alternative? Definitely got me thinking.
Quoted from JodyG:but I have seen phenolic sheet hold up to some very rigorous environments.
Phenolic is a very strong substrate and I believe it could possibly be a solution to this problem?
Quoted from Rarehero:Why don’t JJP or Spooky playfields crater?
My TNA has plenty of dimples, chipped post, and it also is planking 
Quoted from Shapeshifter:I have had other QC issues with my Maiden but there really are no dimples and never have been.
I am generally curious how many layers your playfield is? Same with your STTNG Greg? As long as we are having this discussion again, let's try and figure out the discrepancies. Is it a 5-7 layer with a dark dense wood on the top, or is it a 9-11 with a lighter colored layer in the plywood? Just curious
Quoted from Rarehero:Here’s mine...does that count as 7?
Just as I thought-look at the top layer and it's color-really an old growth hardwood species-super dense. Just stick your fingernail in it-you can literally feel the difference in density compared to today's wood used in production.
Quoted from Whysnow:what?
Did you get one of the bad PFs in middle run?
I have not seen any planking. Let's see pictures of this.
Yes I believe it was one from middle run. I purchased from Suli and received an extra playfield for the defects. My point is-it is not just Stern having these issues.
Quoted from Trindawg:What do u all think about shooter lane protectors?? Since this will be my first NIB investment , I want to protect it as much as I can in high wear areas. Thoughts?
I am interested in trying out those Pinball Universe plastic protectors that Mezel Mods is offering. When you spend $5500+ on a machine you want to try and protect that shooter lane from Stern's overpowered eject mech. I have been using mylar but I am tired of changing it out, etc. Looking for something more permanent? Can someone who has used these protectors chime in. Do they work well?, Any problems with plunging balls with them? Are they all custom made depending on machine-seems like some are sold out? Is there a universal one that will work? I am very interested in spending $28 to protect my shooter lane on a NIB purchase.
https://mezelmods.com/products/pinball-shooter-lane-protector?variant=18133347565665
I may be in the minority but I believe all of the Stern games have turned out to be good games. I only have two Stern games that do not interest me-WWE and Iron Maiden. I tried to get into WWE but the layout with the ring was no fun to me and Stern's only fail-imo. Iron Maiden has been proclaimed as a masterpiece by many-I just cannot find myself to enjoy the theme with the music. I am not interested in using pinball browser to change out the music-plus it seems sacrilegious to do so? So only two Sterns that do not do it for me in 20 years-not too shabby. All of these new releases are beginning to feel like groundhogs day to me. Rinse and repeat-I am out! Look at the dimples! This code sucks! The toy is lame! I am in for a LE! Best game Stern has made! Total polar opposite opinions that are all over the board. The only game where everyone seemed to be on the same page was Metallica-not much hate for that game at launch.
What I am trying to convey is Stern games are like a fine wine-they tend to get better with age. Everyone wants to break out the flaming torches and state their opinion, but give it a year or two and this game should become another great Stern. Time will tell.
Quoted from kpg:My comment is specific to you, what was the decision to buy Iron Maiden when you do not like Iron Maiden?
I am not understanding your question? Not sure if you mis-understood my post? I did not purchase Iron Maiden(..one of the two Sterns I do not like) because of the theme and music(like nails on a chalkboard). I am sure it plays great-I am very interested in Stern doing a mirrored re-theme with Iron Maiden layout. Beetlejuice or Mission Impossible would be an instant buy for me using the Iron Maiden layout.
Quoted from Rockytop:I think it's going to show up great in game rooms.
I agree, I think it will really pop in a dark home environment.
Not too sure about areas with a lot of ambient light?
Stern may need to hand out some HD glasses(As seen on TV )
HD vision.jpgQuoted from kermit24:When you watch the video, the projector looks much better
Just watched the video and it actually does not look that bad, considering the lighting in that room.
Quoted from Potatoloco:Maybe it’s time to whip those bad boys out on the Stern Circuit
I actually saw some blue light blocking glasses at Walmart the other day and they did get me thinking. I do play at night before bed and always have wondered about the correlation with blue light and sleep disruption, etc. Plus you can look cool
I think CES is a great place to show off the Premium, hopefully we will still see some good footage. I am looking forward to seeing the upside down mode with projector.
Quoted from dsmoke1986:Pro seems like the way to go on this one. Save the extra cash
I recommend playing a game at least 10-30 games before making a true judgment call, at least wait to see gameplay video of the Premium in action before making that call. I thought I really wanted the JP Pro-before getting to play the Premium and then I got some good time on the Premium and I really liked the raptor cage, etc. much better. Sometimes Pro is the way to go and sometimes the upgrades on Premium/LE are worth it.
Quoted from Whysnow:I find the pro to typically be the better player, less issues
I think SRT is mainly going to be cosmetic much like Star Trek Pro v.s. Star Trek Premium/LE. If people just want good gameplay and no frills-by all means go with the Pro. If you want the extra eye candy and great gameplay-then you go Premium/LE on this one. Certain eye candy holds a value to me.
Quoted from dsmoke1986:I have 110 games in on my Pro. It’s the way to go IMO
Have you seen or played the Premium/LE? Does not seem like a logical comparison? People making up their minds and clinching their pearls-keep an open mind is all I am saying.
Quoted from RA77:concern is ball marks and lines on those perfect white backings, I just can't see how they expect it to hold up ?
I would probably order a sheet of mylar and cut to size for the ramps to cover over white decals from day one. I do believe a dirty steel ball will begin to tarnish the white reflective tape quickly. We will soon see how quickly they get marked up?
Quoted from f3honda4me:Mylar is probably not going to work well though because it will affect the projected images.
I have no idea if it would work or not. Seems like it still would work since mylar is clear? It may be a non-issue if Stern sells cheap replacement stickers for owners? I think it will start to look like ass really quick on the ramps with ball trails on a white sticker. It may not bother some people, but some people may not care for the look.
Quoted from BC_Gambit:it probably reflects light differently than a sticker that is designed as a projector screen?
I have a feeling that a thin clear piece of plastic will not affect the projector image substantially on the ramps. I believe the ramps just have a simple projected image-arrows pointing upwards. I do not believe the ramps will be used for video or images that would not present well through mylar. Maybe they will not get marked up that bad and you can clean them easily with some magic eraser or something? I just have a feeling that they are going to take a beating and start looking like shit quickly?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:WHY WOULD ANYBODY EVEN RAISE THIS AS AN ISSUE?!?!?!?!
Because people who are actually interested in purchasing a NIB pinball machine are concerned about it. Why do you always feel the need to try and belittle people? Does it make you feel good? Sometimes you have some truly insightful post and sometimes you are just an ass hat. Time to get off that high horse and quit calling people newbies all the time. What happened to this place is people like you come on here and proclaim you know it all(self proclaimed know it all). Why cant people express concern with a white sticker on a ramp-C'mon! Sometimes Pinside can be toxic-or a cancer like Steve Ritchie once said. We all have the passion for pinball and we like to have discussions. If you do not wish to take part in these discussions then-bye bye.
Quoted from PiperPinball:I can. What is the size of the current translight?
I think it is around 16" x 26" but you may want a Pro owner to take their translight off and measure just to verify?
Here are my thoughts on alternative translight. I like the picture with kids on BMX bikes looking up at Mind Flayer. What I would like to see is someone with an illustration app to take it a step further and make it look like art instead of a standard photo. If they can turn that standard picture and make it into an artist rendition I think it will match the game well. Then I would take that even another step forward and add a color changing RGB strip behind the translight in upper portion where Mind Flayer is located. I really think it would pop and look great.
Another alternative translight that actually matches the game really well and would tie right in with the Pro colors,etc. Would have to remove Stranger Things 3 and add just Stranger Things.
-Also would like to see 'Stranger Things' logo at very bottom of translight-below the art.
SRT Translight.jpgSRT poster.jpg
Hoping to see some video today from CES showing projector during upside down mode. Trying to visualize what it will look like?
Quoted from Rockytop:You could start a mod business upgrading the projectors and screens
I thought about this yesterday after all the projector talk. People will find a brighter-better projector and someone WILL offer to sell it as a mod. Same thing as Star Trek laser mod, someone found a brighter more vivid laser and modders were all over it. For people that are not satisfied with the factory projector illumination-they will have an option to upgrade.
Quoted from Who-Dey:Wouldn't it be cool if this game turned out to be the berries after so many people have shit all over it and Multiballmaniac regretted canceling his LE? That would be hilarious.
This game is going to take some time to mature but I have a feeling it should turn out spectacular. Check back in 6 months from now and I am sure many people will have changed their tune. If it had a shitty layout(cant fix a shitty layout)-I would be skeptical, but it has a great layout and now comes down to code integration to immerse the player into the story.
Quoted from bemmett:Onto the club thread and please all you experts on everything and keyboard warriors keep your stupid discussions in here.
There are only a few bad apples in this thread causing shit. Wish we could eject trolls from a thread-but that is not yet an option.
As for religion-I do not wish to debate and it is not allowed(nor should it be). It all comes down to respect and common decency.
-If you want to go in the owners thread and circle jerk each other-more power to you. I hope to join the club eventually if the game code meets my expectations. For now we can have open discussions and discuss both the good and the bad. What I would like to see is this thread have more civil conversations. People can agree to disagree-but don't be a douche about it and try and belittle people you do not agree with. Try and be kind and treat people with respect(deep breath)-now back to Stranger Things talk-good or bad.
Quoted from Whysnow:what are you drinking tonight
Found some of these really strong drinks called Buzz Ballz the other night at a local liquor store-they are small but they pack a mighty punch. I was surprised by how strong they were, you can get wasted quickly-also tasty.
Buzz Ballz.png
Buzz Ballz..pngThinking about Stern deciding to use the center lockdown bar button for rolling a dye during a multi-ball. Seems like Stern is trying to appease people by just throwing something in there quickly for code to show that the button does something? If you roll a certain number you kill the Demogorgan? That does not sound like very much of a challenge? I would like to see a risk reward for the center button, not necessarily 'bashing demo-dogs' but something beside a rolling of the dye?
Recap of season 1 rap song by Millie Bobby Brown-I found it to be entertaining(45 million views)...
Bad news-when you see that bloody nose-Ha
Quoted from Mrawesome44:Give it a few months and once the rose colored glasses come off the value is going to tank.
It will all depend on how good the game turns out to be(code will need to be spectacular). Lots of recent Stern LE machines have been taking a big hit within a year or so after release. Some are taking a $1500-$2000 hit shortly after initial release. I think the AC/DC LE/Tron LE days are over and nowadays LE's are simply not holding the value they once did. Now the only title coming out that may be different imo is Stern Led Zeppelin. That theme may have enough of a following to justify the LE going up in value due to supply and demand(If it is a well designed game)? The thing about Stranger Things is it is a niche sitcom that in ten years from now people will probably not care about or remember. A blip on the screen in terms of themes over the decades.
Yes people should not purchase a machine as an investment-it is a hobby. I agree 100% with this but I also do not wish to take a bath on games either-nobody does. If people who want to enjoy the game upon release and experience the code as it matures may not be able to come close to breaking even a year or so later and that is ok. Some people are willing to wait it out and purchase games at a discount a year or so later. I used to get so excited for new releases and I used to love riding the beta code train, but now I am content watching on the sidelines(playing on route) until the game matures with code and takes the secondary market hit. Still love pinball because-it is a hobby but at the same time conscious about the money- spent on the hobby. Finding the balance is key.
Quoted from Viggin900:I can't think of one game recently that hasn't
Well I am patiently waiting for Jurassic Park LE to hit my sweet spot of $7500. I may be waiting for some time because that game has actually turned out to be a stellar game. The layout is freaking bonkers and it may not take much of a hit because people want it(including myself). Anyone want to sell me a JP LE for $7500 
Quoted from Who-Dey:If they get their playfield quality up I will buy one..
I waited for qc issues as well. I can take dimpling all day but when the playfields pool-that's where I draw the line. I also enjoy going into the JP thread and listening to all the guys having to MacGyver their machines. If I wait a few more months I may just get a low play-no pooling, dialed in(By certified MacGyver expert) LE for a decent price?
mac.jpgQuoted from PanzerFreak:Jurassic Park LE and Dead Pool LE are two recent Stern's that have broken the trend of taking a $1.5k - $2k hit within 6 months on resale
I think those games are still new and to be honest I do not believe they are completely sold out with distributors yet? They are great games so-time will tell on those two?
Quoted from PanzerFreak:I've seen a couple NIB ones being offered for sale but for well over the standard price.
Those are the same guys that do that for every title-using for trade bait. I am sure if someone called around you can still find these NIB?
Quoted from PanzerFreak:The only thing really unique are the video clips which are already represented on the main display. Why is there a rotating arcade sign during every mode?
This is my main big concern for long term enjoyment in a home environment. If this game is just mainly focused on x# shots-with every mode and every mode is random then it will just be a high score game and not a journey game for me. Where is the story line with random modes? Complete this mode-complete next mode-rinse and repeat. Now add in a couple static images that are on repeat and it will make the game feel like chopping wood-really quick. I like completing objectives towards a goal-not trying to get multipliers, bonuses and completing the same mode objectives over and over. I want to feel like I accomplished something and I want variety. I think this game will be much like BM66 where it took 6 months after release just to make the game enjoyable with code. I have mentioned it several times but I want to see x# shots on modes have variety by having x# shot rotate or have single x shot hurry ups or something? I am not sure just adding cool clips and music(Cleland remix) will push me over the fence on this or not? I need more code(cowbell).
Quoted from dsmoke1986:This is def a high score game, with the tantalizing hurry up and Demo shot mixed in.
I feel like SRT is like my GOTG. A game heavy on bonuses & multipliers with rinse and repeat modes. It is a fun game but how many of these style games do I need in my line up? I feel like I would need to get rid of GOTG to get a SRT? I really like GOTG theme and music, so it would be hard for me to consider swapping them out? Now if they can do something with cookie cutter modes-it will get me interested.
Quoted from J85M:At the moment the upside down seems almost uneventful, it should be a big visual change like in the show.
I totally agree, they need to do something? The purple GI's do not illuminate that much and from the brief video I have seen the white debree flakes are not very pronounced. It may be different in a pitch black game room but in a moderately lit room-it really does not do much. I recommend a slow random on/off fade for purple GI's during mode and maybe add a strobe effect to projector with flakes in the air? I think they have the assets to make it cool-just needs execution.
Quoted from Robertstone0407:I think this shouldn’t be too hard to implement this into the game
Wow those are cool! You could use those for lots of mods. Thinking those would be really cool shining on ceiling above Star Trek.
Quoted from Robertstone0407:I’d think you could snake it into the apron and project onto the playfield. Issue would be triggering it to tie into the gameplay. I have some ideas to a usb switch
Not sure it would work for SRT. Debree flakes need to be floating around and moving. That projector just projects a still image. Would be cool for illumination under or above the machine?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:the guy was a huge abusive douche and we never saw an inkling of kindness or any sort of affection
That's like the pot calling the kettle black(an idiom used to accuse the person of being guilty of the very thing they are pointing out.)
Looks like Levi and Billy have a lot in common-I keed I keed
BTW-I loved Billy's character, he did a fantastic job portraying the rebel even though he was an abusive douche.
Pot and Kettle.pngQuoted from TheLaw:Douche is a term used for somone
Douche is the term used for someone that always has to thumb down everything-Mr. poopy pants
Douce Chill Tobias.jpgQuoted from iceman44:I hate to break the news to you. ALL resale value of ANY Nib these days is going down
Next post-No chance here(for JP LE)?
Ice I am confused? One post states that any NIB value is going down, but next post-JP LE will not? Or it will not get down to $7500 or less? There are 3 sitting on marketplace at $8500 OBO(one has been listed for over a month), they will eventually go down to around $7500+/- as more supply hits the secondary market and the market softens due to lots of new releases. I give it another 60 days and I think I will see my sweet spot.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Steve can't hear anything
I thought the same exact thing. Even if it was cranked up he would have to tilt his head in one direction to hear anything.
If this game turns out to be fun for me-I think I like the Premium art the best and I might want it customized or upgraded to pop like the LE model does. Has anyone contacted Steve with Pinball Refinery to custom build them a Premium? If so can I live vicariously through you and get the details of the build? I am probably talking about this way too early because Premiums will not ship until after LE's-in late Feb. or March?
Quoted from Shane75:Anyone know what time the Dead Flip stream starts today of the Premium ?
Wondering how he will stream? Glass off-in a pitch black room? Or Stern factory with lots of above ambient lighting? I am sure people will complain either way. It has been said numerous times but I agree that people will need to judge this one for themselves with their own eyes. Perceptions have too much variance, especially from second hand video images.
Quoted from bgwilly31:I think this game is code Dependent more so than any other stern game in recent history. With the lack of toys the entire game depends on the code and the projector. And it really seems they are very early on code for the projector, at least im hoping they are. So im looking forward to more as they explore more ideas on how to utilize the projector.
You hit the nail on the head-my thoughts exactly. Code will make or break this game
I got some more time on the Pro yesterday and as much as I want to love this game(absolutely love theme-which is huge for me)-it fell flat for me. I still need to play the Premium/LE to see if projector adds much, but as it sits now-it is in need of a major code and sound upgrade. The code seems like a hodgepodge of random movie scenes/clips mixed in with a few static images. Stranger Things Logo on repeat with theme song going in and out with random sounds. Modes did not seem special in any way, they all feel the same with hit 5 lit shots-rinse and repeat. Now Stern states 'No video mode-sorry' I think that is bs and proves the point of how rushed this game was out of the gate(should finish games instead of trying to make a set release schedule-shaking my head).
I thought I liked the layout, but I am beginning to question that. The center stand-ups are no fun shooting towards because of the fast sdtm rejects. The outer loops should flow well, but they actually disrupt the flow(especially going into pops). Ok now to the demogorgon main toy/shot. This toy takes up half of the game and in my opinion should be a challenge to kill or destroy. I really am not a very good pinball player and I had zero issues hitting the demogorgan on first or second shot from cradle position and aiming. I heard Jack say it is easier from cradle left flipper-tried that and had no problem hitting it. Then for shits and giggles I did a post pass to right flipper-and bam nailed it on first shot. I really think it just comes down to controlling the ball in a cradle and just aiming properly. I felt it was too easy and not a challenge(again it made the game feel flat to me).
Let's talk about dimpling-I do not believe we have touched on that topic yet. The SRT I played looked like the moon-really an eye sore. Is it normal-will it eventually even out-sure I guess but it looks like ass. There was a new Elvira sitting next to SRT and it had minimal dimples-night and day difference between the two. I will note that the Elvira did have planking. I really think it is a crapshoot with Stern's playfields. I looked at a picture of my Star Trek(attached pic-look at how thin top layer is) with horrible craters and it looks like Stern used a playfield with top layer plywood being sanded down and using a lighter softer wood substrate. Some that do not crater as bad appear to have a thicker darker layer on top of plywood-more dense-less craters. I do believe Stern needs to try and find a vendor that can produce more consistent quality-I have no interest in playing the playfield lottery.
I know I am the OP of this thread and I should be a fan boy and say 'Everything is awesome!' but I have to tell what I really think about the game. This game is all going to come down to code and sound/music/call-out integration to be its saving grace. I will reserve my true judgment for six months from now when the game has the time to get polished more, but they will need to wow me to get me interested in this one. My other issue is this game is falling in between two epic Stern titles/themes-Jurassic Park and TMNT. I already want a JP LE-just waiting for price to drop more, and from the sounds of it TMNT looks like it could be a game changer. I also want a Cactus Canyon being announced at Texas pinball festival. When you have alternative choices with games that interest you, it forces you to prioritize what game will be the 'next' game to join the line-up. Unfortunately SRT is not on my radar and I do not have any interest at this time 
GEDC4651.JPG
Quoted from chuckwurt:Disagree. I sat on a pro, glass off putting the ball on a cradle on each flipper ten times each. I legitimately missed maybe once or twice. The other times I was dead center right to the mouth but the ball traveled too high every time.
For me it just was aiming properly, hitting on first or second shot and having the gate go back up for the main attraction/toy seemed very underwhelming to me. I have played two different SRT Pro machines now, so not sure how much of a set-up difference there could be? Again- I am not a very good player
Chuckwurt I know you are the official cheerleader for SRT(I am surprised Who-dey did not step up to the plate this time) and I hope your LE turns out to be everything you expected, but it does seem like you have had your rose-colored glasses on for SRT-even weeks before reveal. You were in from day one-so I can understand clinching the pearls and trying to defend it(Hope Stern gives you a bonus check for promo).
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:Well Macho weighed in
Man does Macho bring back some memories for me-those were the days!
Oh Yeah!
Macho..gif
Macho.gifQuoted from iceman44:if I don’t love it after 3 months I’ll sell it.
With all due respect Ice you do that with almost every game. I think you like the flavor of the month club and talking or being a part of new releases-which is all good. Looking at your collection makes me think you like to ride the new game train-hop aboard-toot toot.
Quoted from Yoko2una:I can’t stand playing GOTG.
The only reason I still have GOTG is because I love the theme, layout and music. Code is a hot mess and cookie cutter modes are not very entertaining. SRT is TBD
Well Ice I know one thing for sure-with all those new titles you will be getting in soon you will need to amp up your hype for these games and start defending them like you are trying to save someone's life. You definitely have the passion-Mayhem is coming for those who dare to argue with you about any of your new games.
Mayhem is coming.pngQuoted from Rockytop:Do you know where you are Ice?
You're already in the jungle...you'll be in on GnR.
Of course he will be, just getting him talking in the hype thread and he will get right on the new game train. By that time he will have probably gotten rid of JP LE(the best game ever according to Ice) and moved onto the next best game ever. Just giving you shit Ice-love you man 
Quoted from FLpinball:If the bottom of the coin door is not hitting that properly upon closing. That might be the reason you are receiving that 48v error message upon boot up.
I have had to bend that tab on the coindoor before to ensure it pushes the switch in all the way.
Quoted from Pinballer67:IMO, they have no choice but to release games on schedule and shore up the code as they go.
I thought about this the other day. It is a catch 22 situation-where Stern needs to keep a set release schedule and needs pre-sale orders and hype to sell LE models,etc to support their current business model. But what I was thinking is they just need another month or two to get the code polished to the point where it is nearly complete. Why can't they add another month or so to set release schedules and try and get ahead of it? Why not be proactive instead of reactive? I have said this before but I would like to see Stern choose a handful of operators that get a deep discount to be the first to demo and beta test new games at a few locations. What that would do is help eliminate the majority of defects and flaws seen in early production and would allow feedback to designers/programmers that need input on what works and what doesn't. Now Stern would lose out on the 'hype' opportunity and people being forced to go in blind. Could it drastically affect sales(especially LE models)? -Not sure but I feel it is worth a shot.
How do I think Stern can finally get ahead of it with games with polished code upon release? By either allocating more time(just for code) or not trying to do three cornerstones a year. Stern has a lot of assets at their disposal, including older classic Stern tables. Why not give more time and resources to try and release two totally complete dialed in cornerstone games a year while re-releasing some classic Stern single level games from the past that have already been designed and dialed in? Give up one cornerstone and substitute with a classic Stern game re-issue. I also think there is a demand for some of these older tables and Stern should capitalize on them to balance their business model. I also feel sorry for the designers and programmers that work for Stern-I can't imagine the stress involved in trying to get a game polished last minute with the masses watching.
Quoted from chuckwurt:They give them a timeline of release, then it’s on the team to have their release date code ready then a plan for when the rest will be implemented after release.
I would love to hear from Stern designers on what the true schedule is? Do they have a year or more? How many months does it take for design/layout? Execution of build? Polishing code?
I think trying to come up with innovative toys or mechs seems like it takes up most of the design teams time frame. Batman 66 is a perfect example of this. Gomez trying to get the rotisserie dialed in last minute while trying to throw something in for code to get it pushed out the door for release. SRT seems like the exact same situation with just trying to get the projector mech dialed in-code coming second. It seems if you want innovation(custom mechs)-code tends to suffer.
Quoted from Guinnesstime:It’s location ready.
I disagree. These games have not been beta tested properly-not only with code but with factory defects-that should have been addressed prior to producing 100's on a run for sale to put on location and in homes.
I saw a post yesterday that got me feeling sorry for a fellow pinsider and a great operator. He has a SRT located 70 miles from his shop in another city. A known defect for the post sleeve pressure fitting coming off now has him having to send one of his techs to drive down to fix the problem. I figure probably two-to three hours of time spent? Does Stern offer a warranty claim ticket to such operators for such defects-no. Operators are the one's losing their time and money to repair these defects that should have been addressed with a few beta machines-not 100's on a set run schedule.
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