Why all this talk about playing in the dark when absolutely no one here has ever played the game yet? We have no idea how well it does or doesn’t light up PF screen wise while playing in the light? Of course Stern has thought all these scenarios through and solved the issue before releasing the game. Sure it is shown being played in the dark, but as with almost all their promo videos; the games are being played in the dark in order to highlight the game only.

When actually standing over the machine, would think there will be no issues seeing the PF projected screens even in a lighted room, but we will see when we actually are able to play it. Video taken of projected video screens, never translate well through a video camera lens and always appear washed out to some degree. Video taken of a CRT screen show patterns rolling up the screen, that human eyes don’t detect, for example.

If I were Stern, I wouldn’t have much to do with the Kman, as he sort of compliments ST, but then blasts it and he’s not even played it yet. He says if he buys it, he’ll have to play it under a black sheet to see the screens. How can he say something like this??? He’s not ever played the machine and has no idea whether it will be “washed out” as he states. No manufacturer of pinball is going to make a machine that has to be played only in total darkness to be seen properly. Can understand why Stern has nothing to do with him or any other Manufactering company as well, for that matter. Save erroneous statements, till after flipping the game. He’d be a great deal more credible that way. Although do like listening to his show.

Isn’t that light reflection?

You are absolutely correct about 25 year old games being very very shallow code wise. After all, they were meant to be only quarter munchers with relatively quick play involved on location. I know, some people cherish AFM, MM, MB and the like, but a friend and I played all three and lit everything up in one game a piece 3 times. After a few times doing that; boring to say the least and the call out jokes become tedious hearing them over and over.

Cannot figure out why, other than nostalgia, that these games are so cherished by some. They are simple and even the creator Brian Eddy says that, so why do people think these are above reproach and continue to rate them so high compared to modern day games??? Stern, JJP, Spooky modern day technology coding does circles around these old outdated games (remember windows 95 simple super simple operating system had just begun, during those games creations). To be fair they are still fun to play, but in a HUO environment they grow old very quick.

It’s like saying the old 8 bit Pacman, Space Invaders, Donkey Kong etc. (they are fun still, but technology didn’t allow them to be as good as today’s machines) games are better or as good as the current day mega large game marvels being created in current day video games.

That’s one of the main caveats of ST, almost 50 modes! AFM, MM, MB have very few modes and only are revered because nostalgia has a way of keeping some people thinking they’re so great. If they were produced today for the first time, everyone would be complaining at how shallow the coding is and would refuse to spend $9k on any one of them.

Over 40 plus modes (actually closer to 50 modes) was reported by Jeff in This Week In Pinball. So Jeff is the reliable source where everyone is getting that number and no they are not counting simple hurry ups.

Listen to the stream where Brian Eddy explains what a deep coded game ST is with tons of modes to last a long time in the home environment. It is not just 20, but almost 2 and a half times that number. Remember this is early code at the moment.

Wouldn’t think Jeff would be that far off? But we will all see when the game code reaches 1.0. It is a far way off of that now.

You’re guessing again as usual. Here is the actual posting in “This Week In Pinball” by none other than Jeff the editor:

“Rules
They have not finalized how many MB will be in the game, at least 5, maybe 6. There are over 40 modes – close to 50 – as they are trying to keep it interesting for a long time for those that purchase for their home. The wizard modes are “very deep” into it, and there are lots of goals along the way.”

So quit guessing and read, “close to 50 modes”.

Right on cue. Knew someone would say this. Of course nostalgia dollars are going to be spent on these old games. There are enough people that like them, but make these same non themed games today and watch how sales will not be so kind. That alone makes your statement ironic and hilarious. Most people won’t risk spending 9k on a no name game today, unless a pinhead and sales will be small. Just look at Black knight SOR for example.

Look no further than Dialed In a nonthemed game to see how bad sales would be. Dialed In is every bit as good and in many ways even better with a great deal more tech in it and certainly many times deeper code, but being an original theme has kept it from selling in the big time.

AFM, MM, MB and the like are pure pinhead nostalgia games. Ask anyone that is not a pinhead and they will not care about those titles, although if they saw them might put in a quarter or two, just as they would on Dialed In.

In this day and age, it is big name IP titles that sell, which is obviously why pinball makers choose them and almost never make original titles. Too risky indeed and not enough demand. Back in the 90s, the landscape was much different being a location only driven market.

Wouldn’t disagree, but a name brand IP, will gain more attraction as an entry point every time over a non-themed original.

Don’t hate these old games. They are still fun! They only hold up because they have 25 years of time on their side. People enjoy looking back at their youth and their layback life as a youth, playing pinball in the arcade. We all think fondly of that time. But shallow games don’t hold up well in a HUO environment, because of shallowness and becoming boring is the point, unless there is a huge IP to back that game up.

It has been proven over and over that people will not keep in their collection games that become monotonous to some degree unless it has a big name IP attached to it.

I agree with your assertion that prices are way too high and less is being put into games as well.

Wrong why? Because your beloved old timer games say so? No one says they are not good designs, cause they are. It is only being very shallow and original themes that would not cut it into today’s market, that is why your continued assertions are plain silly and wrong. No manufacturers are going to take a chance on these type of titles today, because pure business acumen and sales logic wouldn’t allow them to do so. Just look at the poor sales of a fun playing game like Oktoberfest if you have a difficult time understanding this point. Sales have been very poor to say the least.

Never said people don’t want them. Pinheads do still enjoy and want them. That is the reason CGC is in business, but even they are going to go with a rumored licensed theme soon.

Excellent art, design does not sell a game to anyone but pinheads that remember them from their youth. See the results of Cosmic Carnival, it has excellent art. Re-read my posts for you to understand. Your still “conflating”. Do you sell these games or have stock in them? Lol

Would like to hear your pinball story sometime. Not seeking contention over this apparently touchy subject. Enjoyed our discussion and appreciate your opinion. Always good to hear what others think and that’s what makes this forum so much fun. No insults intended on my part, simply think that old games are way over rated. And as Ricky Nelson’s penned in one of his most famous songs, “if singing oldies are all it’s about, I’d rather drive a truck.” Think pinball is somewhat that way too. Can’t we reach for better than 25 years ago and are doing better? Even the designers of 25 years ago think we can and are doing much better. Heard George Gomez remark that he can’t believe MB is still up there.

Kieth Elwins first 2 layouts, game rules and depth of code are simply superior in every way to the oldie goldies. If it isn’t why don’t we call it quits in pinball right now? The oldies are still fun, but imo, don’t hold a candle to modern day, Stern’s, JJP’s, AP’s and Spooky titles coming out now. It shows how out of whack Pinside top 100 ratings have become. It is nothing more than a popularity contest. Don’t you think the modern day games should all be ranked much higher? They are simply higher tech and design in every way than the old machines of long ago. Just about everything improves over time, or people would not be buying pinball any longer. CGC would become the only company in town, just copying machines made more than a quarter of a century ago. Seems like quite a boring uninspiring future, if that were really the case.

All the best to you and I hope we do meet sometime. Dinner on me.

On the money my friend Panzer. Insane prices is correct! Happy New Year!

I so agree with you! TMNT is going to rock from the rumors I’m hearing too. If it looks good:

1. Zombiyeti doing art
2. John Borg designing
3. Lead software engineer? Does anyone know who that is rumored to be?
4. All the original cast doing call outs.
5. Toys and ramps going in and out.
6. User controlled ball/lane diverter - This is awesome if true - ala The Shadow
7. Is there a better pinball song than 80s TMNT?

I’m in on this one, cause it seems they’ve fixed issues on the PF and such. Welcome to 2020!

Jack does a good job live streaming, but I don’t get why Stern does it this way??? It is not a controlled narrative. It should be done similar to the PAPA videos, with the designer only playing the game in a controlled environment. Without a side chat going, of a bunch of people, both with good and bad comments, all live. No industry does live reveals of new products this way. Live streaming almost always, does not show any game in the best light (no pun intended for ST projector).

A controlled presentation, showing the game in the best way possible, with a designer/programmer making comments, while a pro is playing the game, after editing out bad takes, would yield far better results. Can you imagine the movie industry live streaming an unedited movie before showing it in the theater, with viewers making live comments??? It would be disastrous!

So agree with this. Very bad move by Stern selling as an add on, an almost necessary part of the game. I know if this were to continue, I’ll be looking to other companies for pinball. It is difficult to not be upset at Stern for doing this. Seems like they didn’t want to raise LE prices to $9,400.00 or $9500.00, so they raised LE’s $100 and pulled an integral part of the game to sell as an add on to get that price anyway.

Brian Eddy was right when he said during the last ST stream, that ST is a very controversial machine. I’m hearing that Stern is failing miserably with this title and I for one hope people reject this as acceptable or it will become the new norm. Unfinished code, unfinished mechs, unfinished whatever, they can tack on later, to raise prices. How well has this approach worked out for EA games? They are failing miserably with the “loot bag” add ons on one hand, but because sport fans have few other options, they still are able to sell them in some sports titles. Hope pinball doesn’t follow suit. We stop buying, Stern stock holders will be telling them to stop price gouging and start building value in pinball machines for a fair market price. Competition could really rock Sterns world for this colossal marketing blunder.

Stern needs to look at how to work smarter at building pinball machines with newer technologies. This could reduce costs overall and keep the customer happy with reasonable pricing. Continuing price raising, with less and less being put in a machine, just kills the home market. Location based Stern Pro market, will be fine. Stern Pre/LE’s are now becoming way overpriced to even think about buying, because 500 of anything is not too limited, in the near $10k price range (with tax, now over $10k). Come on Stern listen to us your customer base.

This is solid proof Stern recently put out, that TMNT Is coming soon (see the turtle left of the pinball machine?):

83DD864E-0912-4327-9D17-D304BB014A4D (resized).jpeg

Think this is the real reason it was not added in the package to begin with. Kman mentioned it and it makes sense now and I’m not as upset, although LE buyers should get it for no extra cost.

The reason: UV is considered very dangerous, i.e., tanning beds UV light etc. If Stern would have included this in the original machine, they would have issues all over the world with anti UV laws. It might cause issues with the whole machine being affected by the UV light kit. Sell it as an extra customer installed add on and Stern skirts around all those potential issues.

If this is a one off occurrence and not setting up a DLC type precedence, then I’m okay with this one off, if it is in fact the issue.