When asked what version of code they were playing on, they were quite coy. Something along the lines of, "This is today's code". Didn't want to give a number but seems it was newer than what shipped.

I respect your opinions and you know a lot more about game rules than me. But IMO just because a game is shallow (AFM, TNA, Tron) doesn't mean the rules are not as good/better than very deep games you can have your opinion but to me AFM and TNA might be very shallow but they have a special something that just is right and hard to duplicate. Just having 10 or 20 or 40 modes doesn't mean something it that much better than something with just a few modes.

Of course tho I am not that great a player so getting to Portal or TA is not easy thing to do. If I was breaking through AFM on the daily then maybe I'd say it's rules are too shallow but to me they are almost better because it's not like some games like Woz or TWD which I never get close to the end type modes.

All fair points. My main point was to say there’s more there already with STH. Is it better? I like it more right now, but others might need more of the added flair to bring it all together for them.

I can see that this game has great bones and it’s only going to get better. Can’t wait to see it evolve.

When will LEs ship? Anyone?

I believe somebody said January here, but I don't know how accurate that information is.

It’s good you mentioned this. That why I think this code will be good for all skill levels. That first Total isolation is only 13 shots away and some cool modes to play along the way. For the better players they know after that there are 8 more modes and 2 more total isolation type modes to play. Not to mention the other 5-6 tasks you must complete to get to the final showdown.

But again, can they capture those same moments and humor that makes AFM so great? Not sure. It will be tough.

Trent told me maybe February.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but Chuck knows his rules better than most people. My point is that sometimes a pin has just the right amount of rules and that it doesn't need 300 made shots to get to the end. But at the same time it would be interesting to see if a game like AFM was updated with a separate set of rules or side missions whatever it might actually be better than it currently is.

I think we need to separate two things AFM (code) and AFM (layout). IMO at the this point AFM holds the cards in both categories. just my 2c (some of that might be nostalgia where I would say Joy Division is better than Radiohead doesn't mean it's a fact, Radiohead might be a better musical act but to me some things are better can't put my finger on it but just are.

Not saying Stranger Things is better than AFM right now. It's basically lifting the layout, and code to a certain extent and then building on that with additional modes to make it deeper. Brian said on the podcast literally the same thing. He wants it to be a deeper AFM. A deeper AFM is better (for me) than the current AFM. Why wouldn't I want more? Then throw on Stranger Things vs generic alien guy and you have a weiner.

AFM is possibly one of or the greatest game of all time.

Yes, they need to get some funny stuff in this game.

Hopefully custom Hooper call outs include some funny stuff!

Game is awesome for newbies - kind of like AFM - what happens if I get the wall down?

There is a demogorgon bash toy behind it that you have to jump shoot a ball into it's mouth to complete the mode. It's pretty rad. There is a stream from deadflip from when people from Stern played it. You see a lot of modes played in it. Check it out!

Sold my shallow AFM. Fun while it lasted

I like my shallow MBRLE better

STH theme much better than AFM for me.

Much deeper code, better theme and immersion.

A better version of AFM. #2 rated pin of all time

Thank you Santa

Forgot to mention the cleland code also does put the real actors voices in the game instead of the fakes stern used. The modes did change a lot since the start of the games not just shoot flashing light. Want to get your upgrade finish modes to get huge bonus and the second levels of modes.

There isn't much humor in Stranger Things - it's a drama. It's never going to be as funny as AFM or MM because those games are basically parody farces.

Why is the code only being compared to AFM? Isn't MM basically AFM with better toys and mode stacking?

there is def enough humor in ST to require it to be in the stern pinball machine. They can achieve this by putting in some funny one liners in the modes or something like that.

Not a ton - just need something.

Everyone keeps saying it has 'deep code'. No. It does NOT have deep code. We've seen it, it is not deep at all. Until the code is much further along, and actually near/finished, it's all fluff. It doesn't matter how many things they SAY they plan to put into it, it isn't there until it's there. Many people are tired of paying those prices based on 'hope' and waiting years for updates if at all. For those who are happy with it, get it, play it, have fun.

It’s got burn the kid mode though. That’s pretty awesome.

The kids are hilarious especially Dustin. Get lots of their banter in the game and the humor will be there.

The sound effects in this mode are wild.

I guess it's ok for 90s games to have shallow code (or retro 80s game like TNA) but when a 2019 game tries to have shallow code like Munsters it's not a good look. I suppose it's like cars where a 60's Mustang doesn't handle like a modern car or have the brakes or the tires that get the performance or much int he way of modern convenience (maybe a radio and AC), but people love the 60s era cars for whatever reason and yet the modern car is better in every way people will still say the 60s car was better. Might be same with pinball machines, I do agree that 90s type games had a lot more physical tricks and toys but the new games (Tspp and beyond) have a lot more code to play around with.

Fair enough - I think it comes down to the word “shallow”. It’s being misused in terms of description & a benchmark. Shallow used to mean a game didn’t really offer the player much to do or any interesting strategy...it inferred that the programmer put enough in there for the game to function, but not much in the way of creativity to keep you coming back. Your example of TNA is perfect. TNA isn’t remotely shallow. It’s easy to understand, but has so much challenge, nuance and creativity in it that it makes you want to keep playing it forever. It takes a real creative flair to take a limited piece of wood in a box and give it so much to understand and enjoy.

I really don't see Stranger Things as a better theme than funny generic Martian pin but that's just me. Stranger Things is serious drama. Not saying it's bad but that sometimes the funny or goofy theme translate better to pinball.

Switch test diagnostic?

Yea, it makes it more lively usually. That being said, ST lends itself to being a good theme because it has monsters. It also hits on a plethora of nostalgia for most people. Almost anything with monsters can be used in pinball/games. It's all about how you insert said assets. This game should be a home run if done right. There is enough subtle dialog/character humor that can be put in it, and save the drama for the monster battles, etc.

must admit i'm more than dissapointed which what i've seen... but OK, let's wait PREM/LE version as this game is based on the projector...

in the other hand, it took me just to play 1 and only 1 ball on JP3 to know that i wanted one home (exact same feeling for my son)

MM has probably the single best interactive toy in all of pinball. (IMO). The stranger things toy pales by comparison, it is indeed much closer to AFM for the toy.

I agree, and this is why AFM should be above MM on the Pinside rankings.

Speaking of which, I have a new idea for a pinball machine.

Dodgeball

The game has no playfield glass, and as you play it, you have hurry up modes that you have to hit certain targets within a time limit or the game starts throwing pinballs at your face.

Fact is this.

In your game room, picture AFM and Stranger Things sitting next to each other lit up. Rest of your machines are dark.

A group of 10 guests come over, none of which have touched a pinball machine ever or for many many years.

They look over and what do each of them say?

Oh Look! An Attack From Mars pin.. let's play! LOL - negative.

They will see a Stranger Things branded pin and want to play it for that reason alone. They will actually be interested in trying pinball because of the theme. The layout won't be intimidating or tough to understand.

For people like me who use their pins as entertainment for guests, it's a homerun and will interest people in actually playing them.

Interested to see how this earns compares to Jurassic Park.

I wonder if there should be different scoring systems for tournament play and just overall enjoyment for anybody / casual players here on pinside.
Casual players like often long playing pins with good theme integration and novel toys vs score balancing, strategy and difficulty for tournament players.

Tournament players like to hold the balls indefinitely to set up shots. Games need to integrate point penalties for ball cradling. Easy enough to do. No ball hits + flipper held X over 1 second = start penalties.

That's an interesting concept! Adds a new strategy element!

I meant in my above post actually the pinside rating though, sorry for the confusion.

There are lots of game adjustments that allow for exactly what you are saying.

Sorry, yes, I realized that, it just made me think of that idea.

Man this is a dumb idea. Like, even for pinside.

Hey you know what? For pro baseball we should make it that the batter isn’t allowed to hold his bat and needs to swing away at everything. It’s cheating otherwise. Nfl teams shouldn’t be allowed to huddle either. It’s dumb.

Dialed in throws a wrinkle into multiballs with the energy surge to the flippers. It’s cute but doing something like this all the time would ruin games and you wouldn’t see them in tournaments at all. Not sure how that helps anything.

There’s tons of ways to make tournament games play shorter that don’t involve such ridiculous ideas. Remove rubbers from posts, open outlanes, make the rules harder....anybody who actually plays in tournaments knows this. Stranger things will be a fine tournament game just like everything else and players will still be allowed to cradle the ball.

Ya sorry, I meant the pinside rating.

Look, I'm not happy about me being right any more than you are.

Apparently you aren't a fan of basketball...or any sport with 'holding up the game' penalties.

I think there should be a casual mode that is objective based instead of score based. My kids and non pinball friends respond to objectives so much more than what any amount of “score” shows up on the DMD or lcd, thus when I have a casual pinball night majority of my games get put on settings that allow objectives to be easily achieved.

Using Iron Maiden as an example, putting the power features on their lowest setting and having a visual count of their progress towards the multiball is extremely fun and rewarding for these types of players.

WWF royal rumble does exactly this during multiball and other modes.

There is a timer for in between plays in NFL and timeouts. Actually adds a strategy element e.g. no huddle offense and so on. That is actually a real world application of the suggested concept.

Every time there’s a stream a bunch of people here who never play in big time tournaments lament how easy the game looks and how it will take hours to play in tournaments.

It’s simply not true. Bar league? Maybe but that’s bar league. Any real tournament with competent TDs the games will be setup appropriately

And if a game is too easy for you at home, you can do the same things. In my experience most home buyers WANT their games to be easy, because they think that’s what their kids, souses, and guests want.

Fully agreed, what I was getting at is, I wouldn't dismiss the concept out if hand. Imagine one machine with that rule option set up in a tournament as an additional strategy point for that game. I think that would add more depth to it and not every machine is probably suitable for it either.

Nothing about making it easier or harder or being good or bad at it. Watching tournament play is like watching paint dry. Cradle ball 3-5 seconds, take shot, cradle ball 3-5 seconds, take shot, repeat repeat repeat. Just play the game. You want to see who is good at the game? It's like a constant hurry up mode.

I don't care how you set it up at home. I just want it to be more entertaining to watch the streams!

What if many of the modes feel the same? That's how I feel with my BM66...a game packed with modes. They don't *all* feel the same, but many do. I also felt Stern Star Trek modes all felt the same.

Equating the mode count with depth doesn't make sense to me.

Most DMD era to modern pins are objective based. Start modes, finish modes, destroy the castle, sink the ship, etc. I could tell you every objective in LOTR and how it relates to advancing to the end...I’ve had the game for over 10 years...I couldn't tell you what scores what...but it doesn’t matter, as objective = score. I know more jackpots =more score. Finishing modes = score + elf gifts which = score. The best games are the ones designed with some obvious things for casuals to do & nuance for the pros who want to dig deeper. No need for two separate rule sets if a designer & programmer knows how to craft a great pinball machine design & ruleset.

That's a game I need to get my hands on some day. I've played it a handful of times over the years and really enjoyed it.

This game does not play easy by default out of the box. It plays like a normal difficulty pinball machines. It’s fair.

Makes sense, but most of my non-pinball friends don't enjoy playing, so I have a hard time keeping too many games around that aren't loved by pinballers. I find most non-pinball friends will appreciate the licenses/beauty, but ultimately have no interest in firing up a game.

I’ve probably played 10 of the main story modes on this. Maybe two of them feel similar. Even on this early code. That’s a good sign.