(Topic ID: 257038)

Stern Stranger Things


By pinmister

5 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 7,137 posts
  • 642 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 57 days ago by pinballfan2000
  • Topic is favorited by 96 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Are you interested in a Stern Stranger Things pinball machine?”

  • Yes, I am interested if it plays well and has polished code 481 votes
    39%
  • No, I am not interested 439 votes
    36%
  • Maybe, not a huge fan of the franchise but maybe if it plays well 100 votes
    8%
  • I like pizza 200 votes
    16%

(1220 votes)

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Topic index (key posts)

13 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items. (Show topic index)

There are 7137 posts in this topic. You are on page 125 of 143.
-12
#6201 3 months ago
Quoted from anathematize:

And this is the first salvo across the bow in pinball.

First? Where have you been? Stern has been selling Accessories for their games since Ghostbusters, TWD, etc.

21
#6202 3 months ago
gARY (resized).jpg
#6203 3 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

First? Where have you been? Stern has been selling Accessories for their games since Ghostbusters, TWD, etc.

This goes beyond an accessory really. Many people were already complaining about how the differences in pro vs le/prem didn't justify the price difference. This was built into the game from the beginning and left off. This is not an accessory. Even if you try to spin it that 'well it saves you some money if you don't want it', I don't buy that point of view. It's a cash grab. Maybe the others were too, but it wasn't as blatant.

I'm sure many people will buy it and enjoy it (I will admit it looks badass), but it is just the beginning.

19
#6204 3 months ago

stern meme (resized).jpg

45
#6205 3 months ago

This really is the beginning of DLC. Already installed by being part of the pf already. Now you're essentially unlocking by buying this kit.

Complete bullshit. Anyone describing this as an add on like a shooter rod is already lost. This is literally part of the code/gameplay and clearly should have been included as prem/le.

I'm starting to really get sick of Stern's abuse along with the Stern army apologists who support this garbage.

#6206 3 months ago
Quoted from Zablon:

This goes beyond an accessory really. Many people were already complaining about how the differences in pro vs le/prem didn't justify the price difference. This was built into the game from the beginning and left off. This is not an accessory. Even if you try to spin it that 'well it saves you some money if you don't want it', I don't buy that point of view. It's a cash grab. Maybe the others were too, but it wasn't as blatant.

Seriously, this is a LIGHTING feature. What next, DLC code updates to enable Multi-GI effects? Toys that are on the playfield and don't move or do certain things until you unlock with code?

What a bunch of bullshit

-21
#6207 3 months ago
Quoted from Zablon:

And here come the apologists.

No, the one being objective.

I don't think they should be doing it... but I'm not going to rewrite history or reality to try to justify my stance.

Truth is Stern has been selling accessories or keeping things out of games to sell as add-ons for years. Ghostbusters side rails anyone? Toppers for games with plugs built-in and ready for them?

This is not new. People are wound up that it was something planned and released later. That's not new... I guess people are just oblivious?

14
#6208 3 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

No, the one being objective.
I don't think they should be doing it... but I'm not going to rewrite history or reality to try to justify my stance.
Truth is Stern has been selling accessories or keeping things out of games to sell as add-ons for years. Ghostbusters side rails anyone? Toppers for games with plugs built-in and ready for them?
This is not new. People are wound up that it was something planned and released later. That's not new... I guess people are just oblivious?

Problem is, where does it stop though? I get bling and accessories, and things to change how the machine looks.. like some people do putting dolls and shit on the playfield.

But this is something clearly that should have been included with the Prem/LE.. its so basic but seems like it was clearly designed with it and directly is interactive with the gameplay. I do NOT support where this is going right now. Not cool. A slap to the faces of people who pay a premium for the upgraded models.

Gary told me once he looks at pinball machine modders like guys who have Harleys and customize them. But dude... this is like Harley having a headlight and you having to pay $279 after the purchase to make it turn on

#6209 3 months ago
Quoted from Zablon:

This was built into the game from the beginning and left off.

Yes, just like the ghostbusters siderails... just like the toppers for years now...

You don't think Stern has been analyzing what should be an accessory and what should be built into the base product since they got into the accessory game?

fasttimes.gif

#6210 3 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

No, the one being objective.
I don't think they should be doing it... but I'm not going to rewrite history or reality to try to justify my stance.
Truth is Stern has been selling accessories or keeping things out of games to sell as add-ons for years. Ghostbusters side rails anyone? Toppers for games with plugs built-in and ready for them?
This is not new. People are wound up that it was something planned and released later. That's not new... I guess people are just oblivious?

I truly understand what you are saying, but this really does feel like a different beast.

#6211 3 months ago

$10k by 4th of July...literally

#6212 3 months ago
Quoted from kpg:

Problem is, where does it stop though? I get bling and accessories, and things to change how the machine looks.. like some people do putting dolls and shit on the playfield.

It's not really different from buying a LE because you wanted the powder coat vs hammered finish, etc. It's just another form of packaging and go to market.

Apparently some people have made up this false expectation that an LE was an 'all inclusive' offer now... all while Stern has been selling them add-ons for years.. including for LEs.

Quoted from kpg:

But this is something clearly that should have been included with the Prem/LE..

Based on what? Couldn't we make that argument for a ton of 'obvious' mods out there in the market?

Quoted from kpg:

Gary told me once he looks at pinball machine modders like guys who have Harleys and customize them. But dude... this is like Harley having a headlight and you having to pay $279 to make it turn on

Obviously many people thought this was something 'built in' and being asked to pay to turn it on. It's not.. it's a bolt on kit that takes advantage of what is already in the PF art.

-15
#6213 3 months ago
Quoted from Zablon:

I truly understand what you are saying, but this really does feel like a different beast.

The only difference is that it leverages something that was already in the game (the PF art).

You could make the argument that games that were pre-wired, pre-cut, etc for other accessories are the same.

Truth is.. it's an emotional response (not a rational one) to people seeing Stern monetize another optional feature instead of rolling it into the existing price.

It's the surprise that people are acting out on.. compounded by the idea that it's 'enabling' something already there... not the rational facts in front of them.

13
#6214 3 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

It's not really different from buying a LE because you wanted the powder coat vs hammered finish, etc. It's just another form of packaging and go to market.
Apparently some people have made up this false expectation that an LE was an 'all inclusive' offer now... all while Stern has been selling them add-ons for years.. including for LEs.

Based on what? Couldn't we make that argument for a ton of 'obvious' mods out there in the market?

Obviously many people thought this was something 'built in' and being asked to pay to turn it on. It's not.. it's a bolt on kit that takes advantage of what is already in the PF art.

It IS manifestly different than a regular accessory though.

Before you buy an LE, Premium or Pro you can look at a feature matrix to work out what you’re getting and what you’re missing for your money. If you want powdered rails - there it is on the list, LE/Prem only, etc.

If this was an all in one kit that ADDED UV to various parts of the playfield you could argue that it’s purely a personal choice, like an addon “skin” for a character in a game.

The fact is, for the playfield to be UV reactive means that they knew they were going to be releasing this kit for some time, specifically held it back from the LE (at least) and worst of all didn’t tell anyone that it was coming - and therefore stopped people being able to make an informed purchase.

As it stands it’s a pretty major playfield feature, and essentially creates an LE+ spec.

How you can equate that to an accessory I do not know, unless you’re being deliberately obtuse, or an apologist, no offence.

11
#6215 3 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

The only difference is that it leverages something that was already in the game (the PF art).
You could make the argument that games that were pre-wired, pre-cut, etc for other accessories are the same.
Truth is.. it's an emotional response (not a rational one) to people seeing Stern monetize another optional feature instead of rolling it into the existing price.
It's the surprise that people are acting out on.. compounded by the idea that it's 'enabling' something already there... not the rational facts in front of them.

Ok Gary

#6216 3 months ago

sitting on the fence gonna grab me an le with topper and uv mod next year fo 5900. please buy all this stuff!!

-13
#6217 3 months ago
Quoted from Durzel:

It IS manifestly different than a regular accessory though.
Before you buy an LE, Premium or Pro you can look at a feature matrix to work out what you’re getting and what you’re missing for your money. If you want powdered rails - there it is on the list, LE/Prem only, etc.
If this was an all in one kit that ADDED UV to various parts of the playfield you could argue that it’s purely a personal choice, like an addon “skin” for a character in a game.
The fact is, for the playfield to be UV reactive means that they knew they were going to be releasing this kit for some time, specifically held it back from the LE (at least) and worst of all didn’t tell anyone that it was coming - and therefore stopped people being able to make an informed purchase.
As it stands it’s a pretty major playfield feature, and essentially creates an LE+ spec.
How you can equate that to an accessory I do not know, unless you’re being deliberately obtuse, or an apologist, no offence.

Your arguments do not hold up.

They know what features will be part of the game and which will be held back as accessories ahead of time. This is nothing new
They often include hardware and design elements in the base game to support accessories. This is nothing new.

Neither of those things are necessarily disclosed or advertised to buyers when they rush to buy on day one. This is nothing new.

The idea that it leverages existing art is not some magical breakthrough that changes the whole goto market. The kit adds and changes materially significant parts of the game.

People are just butthurt they think they should have gotten this feature for free -- not that Stern has changed how they do things or how things are sold.

People just live in their happy little bubbles I guess...

19
#6218 3 months ago

We heard you the eleventh time.

#6219 3 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

The only difference is that it leverages something that was already in the game (the PF art).
You could make the argument that games that were pre-wired, pre-cut, etc for other accessories are the same.
Truth is.. it's an emotional response (not a rational one) to people seeing Stern monetize another optional feature instead of rolling it into the existing price.
It's the surprise that people are acting out on.. compounded by the idea that it's 'enabling' something already there... not the rational facts in front of them.

The reason this is different to me is that it kinda makes the "upside down" what it should have been from the factory. I get that it's an add on, so no big emotional reaction from me. However, this seems like a gameplay difference and not just a bling thing.

#6220 3 months ago

First of all...this is pretty cool. Great effect! Can't wait to see it in person. Looks amazing on the video.

As for the extra cost drama...geez. It's no different than a shaker motor. Yes, the machine is set-up to utilize it if you choose to enhance your game with it. If not, the game is still fully functional. Would it be awesome if it was included...yup. Should at least the LE have had it...I kind of agree with that too. But there is an obvious cost to the additional hardware required to light it up, so it's not a surprise they are charging for it.

Stern is really screwed no matter what they do. They include it and people will complain about paying for features they do not want. Do not include it and people complain they have to pay for extra features they want. No possible win.

My opinion...and mine alone...this is a cool innovation (which we all keep wishing for), and adds a badass enhancement to the game. I love it. If I ever pick up a Stranger Things, I will happily pay the extra what...~4% for something that will give me a much larger percentage of extra enjoyment. Don't like it or do not think it's worth extra $$? Then don't buy it and enjoy your machine just the way it is. It's not worth the stress and anger so many people seem to be feeling because of this.

-1
#6221 3 months ago

OMG, they knew about this all along..... LOL

#6222 3 months ago
Quoted from Jediturtle:

First of all...this is pretty cool. Great effect! Can't wait to see it in person. Looks amazing on the video.
As for the extra cost drama...geez. It's no different than a shaker motor.

Or 3 shaker motors.

#6223 3 months ago
Quoted from Guinnesstime:

Or 3 shaker motors.

Yeah...I do think it's about 3 times cooler for the playfield to glow during a special mode than just shake once in awhile.

#6224 3 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Your arguments do not hold up.
They know what features will be part of the game and which will be held back as accessories ahead of time. This is nothing new
They often include hardware and design elements in the base game to support accessories. This is nothing new.
Neither of those things are necessarily disclosed or advertised to buyers when they rush to buy on day one. This is nothing new.
The idea that it leverages existing art is not some magical breakthrough that changes the whole goto market. The kit adds and changes materially significant parts of the game.
People are just butthurt they think they should have gotten this feature for free -- not that Stern has changed how they do things or how things are sold.
People just live in their happy little bubbles I guess...

Are you seriously comparing this to an accessory plug for an as yet unknown add on in the future?

If Stern released a motorised demo down the line, and wanted to charge for it, more power to them.

UV ink does nothing without blacklight, so either you’re suggesting they added an invisible playfield feature in the new world order of them cutting BOM costs everywhere else, or - more believably - they designed and produced the PF knowing they were going to release an addon *to make it work* and didn’t tell LE customers they were going to do it.

It’s not a plug for a to be released topper or something, it’s a feature built into the playfield and specifically held back from at least the LE machine, to offer it as a DLC afterwards.

12
#6225 3 months ago
Quoted from Jediturtle:

First of all...this is pretty cool. Great effect! Can't wait to see it in person. Looks amazing on the video.
As for the extra cost drama...geez. It's no different than a shaker motor. Yes, the machine is set-up to utilize it if you choose to enhance your game with it. If not, the game is still fully functional. Would it be awesome if it was included...yup. Should at least the LE have had it...I kind of agree with that too. But there is an obvious cost to the additional hardware required to light it up, so it's not a surprise they are charging for it.
Stern is really screwed no matter what they do. They include it and people will complain about paying for features they do not want. Do not include it and people complain they have to pay for extra features they want. No possible win.
My opinion...and mine alone...this is a cool innovation (which we all keep wishing for), and adds a badass enhancement to the game. I love it. If I ever pick up a Stranger Things, I will happily pay the extra what...~4% for something that will give me a much larger percentage of extra enjoyment. Don't like it or do not think it's worth extra $$? Then don't buy it and enjoy your machine just the way it is. It's not worth the stress and anger so many people seem to be feeling because of this.

Not a shaker motor. Not even comparable.

This "mod" was designed specifically for programmed modes in the game. This is like charging extra for the GI to change colors in Iron Maiden or Metallica during crank it up mode, not with the Premium or LE games.. but an add-on.

This is not an "accessory" like a shaker.. it feels literally like a piece of equipment they didn't finish on time for the release of the game.

They ship with unfinished code, now.. unfinished hardware? That is how it feels. No way to argue that.

#6226 3 months ago

The rage will die down and then you will accept it as the norm, just like with Stern's price increases on the games themselves. 8 years ago: Pros-4K, LE's $6500 shipped. Today: Pros: $5700, LE's $8800 shipped. The prices have outpaced inflation, while features and quality control have bitten the dust.

#6227 3 months ago

Someone tell me how you download a mod kit.........

#6228 3 months ago
Quoted from kpg:

Not a shaker motor. Not even comparable.
This "mod" was designed specifically for programmed modes in the game. This is like charging extra for the GI to change colors in Iron Maiden or Metallica during crank it up mode, not with the Premium or LE games.. but an add-on.
This is not an "accessory" like a shaker.. it feels literally like a piece of equipment they didn't finish on time for the release of the game.
They ship with unfinished code, now.. unfinished hardware? That is how it feels. No way to argue that.

Wait...shaker motors are not specifically programmed into the game? Wow...that's some magical stuff then!

#6229 3 months ago
Quoted from JustEverett:

I'll post my thoughts about this here since DeadFlip moderators decided to remove them from the chat on the video (sorry if I was slowing down your hype train). Yes, the lighting effect looks good, but how can a company make such a shameless cash grab. They clearly designed the lighting effect into the playfield art, then nearly two months after release release a mod for $280. This should have been included in the prem/le models. I can see selling it as a mod for the pros. I just don't get how Stern does this to their customers. What is their company's reputation worth? $280?

Don't exaggerate- it's only $279

20200212_224341 (resized).jpg
#6230 3 months ago
Quoted from Jediturtle:

Wait...shaker motors are not specifically programmed into the game? Wow...that's some magical stuff then!

Yeah, obviously. But come on dude. This is not even remotely the same thing as a shaker that can be fitted in all pinball machines. Apples and Oranges.

#6231 3 months ago

I'm going to buy them all and resell them for $1k.

#6232 3 months ago

Would you guys be happier if the playfield didn't have UV reactive ink and if this accessory didn't exist? You bought the game without knowing that this was even a possibility and now you can add a cool lighting feature to your game for around the price of a Pinstadium kit. You aren't any worse off than you were before and now you have a nice opportunity to make your game even better than it was before. It's not like this was promised to you on the Spec sheet when you bought the game.

#6233 3 months ago

Shaker motors are listed as options when purchasing a pinball machine.

This was not listed. In fact it is now being sold after the fact and in mid March none-the-less.

People previously speculated that STH was released prematurely as a knee-jerk reaction to RaMs sellout success. Again, whatever the case it seems like they rushed the game out the door knowing it should ha e these lights and just decided to say screw it, sell it to them later when they are ready.

#6234 3 months ago
Quoted from kpg:

Yeah, obviously. But come on dude. This is not even remotely the same thing as a shaker that can be fitted in all pinball machines. Apples and Oranges.

Hey it's all good man. We just have different opinions...no worries. Either way it's a damn cool enhancement. Would have been awesome if they could have included it. I'm glad it's at least an option since they didn't.

#6235 3 months ago

3 years later....

What, you bought it without artwork? You expect the playfield to have artwork? You should be happy they even have the option. It's no different than when they used to actually give you balls with the game. You always replaced the balls anyway.

#6236 3 months ago
Quoted from Jediturtle:

Hey it's all good man. We just have different opinions...no worries. Either way it's a damn cool enhancement. Would have been awesome if they could have included it. I'm glad it's at least an option since they didn't.

Honestly its an awesome enhancement. I felt like the Upside mode was very weak and they didn't integrate it well.

Now it makes total sense... what pisses me off is they saved what should have been a normal mode effect as a $279 "mod"

I think long term about stuff. Long term, and seeing where Stern's head is at, this is not cool. Pins will start to feel like a bare bones cheap Mobile game that you need to pay to unlock stuff all the time. This isn't what pinball is about. This is headed down a path I never wanted to see...

#6237 3 months ago
Quoted from kpg:

Honestly its an awesome enhancement. I felt like the Upside mode was very weak and they didn't integrate it well.
What pisses me off is they saved what should have been a normal mode effect as a "mod"
I think long term about stuff. Long term, and seeing where Stern's head is at, this is not cool. Pins will start to feel like a bare bones cheap Mobile game that you need to pay to unlock stuff all the time. This isn't what pinball is about. This is not headed down a path I wanted to see...

And the only way to stop it (even if it leads to the demise of a company) is to speak with your wallet. No matter how much the loyalists may not care how much they take it up the rear, there aren't enough of them to keep a company afloat. It sounds like we may be over reacting, but long term outlook is always where this is pointed. If they had sold the kit with UV patches, even if it was planned from the beginning, this would spin better than it does as they are selling it now. Sure maybe the intent is the same, but the customer would be none the wiser.

23
#6238 3 months ago

You know what would have been a sick ass reveal?
-If Stern told you instructions to a menu easter egg where it turned on pre-installed black lights. THAT would have been a sick ass reveal.

This was just a sales gimmick designed to take advantage and desensitize the masses as to what type of production behavior should be expected.

#6239 3 months ago
Quoted from Lamprey:

The reason this is different to me is that it kinda makes the "upside down" what it should have been from the factory. I get that it's an add on, so no big emotional reaction from me. However, this seems like a gameplay difference and not just a bling thing.

My first reaction to seeing it was... I was kinda shocked no one had suggested doing it by now! Since UV is common in pinstadiums, etc.. It was one of those 'so obvious, shocked we missed it' kind of moments.

#6240 3 months ago
Quoted from kpg:

Honestly its an awesome enhancement. I felt like the Upside mode was very weak and they didn't integrate it well.
Now it makes total sense... what pisses me off is they saved what should have been a normal mode effect as a $279 "mod"
I think long term about stuff. Long term, and seeing where Stern's head is at, this is not cool. Pins will start to feel like a bare bones cheap Mobile game that you need to pay to unlock stuff all the time. This isn't what pinball is about. This is not headed down a path I wanted to see...

This is why I would be aggrieved as an LE owner. It’s gameplay driven, and UV suits the upside down aspect of the theme well.

Something this strong essentially creates an LE+ spec in my mind, it will be conspicuous in its absence on “regular” LEs now (yes, that’s now a thing)

#6241 3 months ago
Quoted from Durzel:

Are you seriously comparing this to an accessory plug for an as yet unknown add on in the future?

Unknown to who? You seem to think this is some new conspiracy where STERN KNEW!!!! Uhh.. they always know.

Quoted from Durzel:

If Stern released a motorised demo down the line, and wanted to charge for it, more power to them.
UV ink does nothing without blacklight, so either you’re suggesting they added an invisible playfield feature in the new world order of them cutting BOM costs everywhere else, or - more believably - they designed and produced the PF knowing they were going to release an addon *to make it work* and didn’t tell LE customers they were going to do it.

That's exactly what they did... and HAVE BEEN DOING FOR YEARS. Just because you were oblivious to it doesn't make it not true. Reviewing features during design and deciding what things should be in, should be accessories, or should be dropped. Putting ink in the art is no different from putting brackets, wiring, or software into games for accessories.

Pssst... they knew they were going to make a topper too... but THEY DIDN'T TELL YOU!

Quoted from Durzel:

It’s not a plug for a to be released topper or something, it’s a feature built into the playfield and specifically held back from at least the LE machine, to offer it as a DLC afterwards.

It's not DLC. It's an accessory kit that includes an apron, lights, plastics, wiring and is supported by the game software.

These arguments do not hold up to any logical challenge. You could be crying bloody murder about Stern holding back on shaker motors, toppers, whatever

#6242 3 months ago

I can feel the sting for the LE owners, as this feature should have been included. As a Pro owner, I am happy to be able to add this feature to my game and not be snuffed.

#6243 3 months ago
Quoted from FYMF:

Shaker motors are listed as options when purchasing a pinball machine.

This was not listed

Neither was the Black Knight Topper... Nor the SW Topper... and the list goes on and on and on

#6244 3 months ago

I think the take-away Stern should learn from this is... their marketing this as a 'secret feature' backfired. Instead of revealing a new potential... they caused their buyers to feel deceived.

#6245 3 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Neither was the Black Knight Topper... Nor the SW Topper... and the list goes on and on and on

You keep comparing it to toppers, but this is built right into the pf. It was designed to be seen, and now owners have to pay an additional amount to "unlock" this secret feature. It's not the same as an addon topper or mod.

#6246 3 months ago
Quoted from cleland:

I can feel the sting for the LE owners, as this feature should have been included. As a Pro owner, I am happy to be able to add this feature to my game and not be snuffed.

I think that totally makes sense for the Pro owners.

This added feature along likely would have made some Pro buyers plop down the extra cash for a Premium or LE if it had came with it. So there are two sides of the coin here, now ALL models can get this upgrade... but it really should have been included in the LE at minimum just like a shaker is.

The topper argument doesnt hold up as we all know that even LE's dont come with it, and it has zero effect on the gameplay itself.

This was a feature likely designed from the beginning, and some asswipe at Stern came up with the idea to not include it with the BOM and make it an add-on. Not cool.

#6247 3 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

I think the take-away Stern should learn from this is... their marketing this as a 'secret feature' backfired. Instead of revealing a new potential... they caused their buyers to feel deceived.

The fact that they even have to 'learn from this' shows how absolutely out of touch they are with their customer base.

Any competent marketing person would have seen red flags all over the reveal of this 'super secret feature.'

Or - worse yet - Stern perceives the vast majority of their customers as complete suckers who will welcome this with open arms and open wallets.

Both options are depressing af.

#6248 3 months ago

For me personally, there's a big difference between cosmetic things on the cabinet and a topper on the backbox compared to something that is part of the gameplay itself under the glass.

The feature is pretty cool and looks great when it happens, but the Upside Down is also a huge part of the Stranger Things and as of now, it doesn't feel like one will get the full experience intended for this pin by Brian Eddy unless they shell out additional money.

#6249 3 months ago
Quoted from JustEverett:

You keep comparing it to toppers, but this is built right into the pf. It was designed to be seen, and now owners have to pay an additional amount to "unlock" this secret feature. It's not the same as an addon topper or mod.

So being on the PF is some magical difference now? The complaints are identical... what the feature *is* really doesn't change the argument.

They planned this - Yes... they always do
They didn't tell us - Yes... as frequently done, product launches come out in waves
They put stuff in and hid it - Yes, they do this all the time.. and why owners can plug that shaker, topper, 3rd party mod, etc right in..
They are charging for what *I* think should have been included - Uhh.. welcome to 2014 onward

14
#6250 3 months ago

On the bright side, you don’t have to write an essay about why you deserve it.

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From: $ 20.00
Cabinet - Other
Rock Custom Pinball
$ 59.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Hookedonpinball.com
9,099 (Firm)
Machine - For Sale
West Des Moines, IA
Trade
Machine - For Trade
San Francisco, CA
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