(Topic ID: 71415)

Stern ST - Boring to watch? (Strategy talk now!)


By FrederikFrost

6 years ago



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  • Latest reply 6 years ago by EricR
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#1 6 years ago

Hello folks.

After watching several videos from Papa, and their livestream today I've found myself sitting here thinking, that I just don't enjoy watching ST at all. I don't know how why, as I in general love watching those tournaments (not as much as playing myself obviously > ) but ST just doesn't seem to do it for me. I think I got the rules down quite well, and I understand what's going on, but I just feel, meh. Other machines I've seen doesn't do this, be it Bally, Stern, Williams or whatever.

Does anyone else have that feeling about this machine in particular?

(Note, I bet ST is A BLAST to play, though I don't know as I don't have that kind of funds- this topic is merely discussing watching the machine).
EDIT: This is NOT a bash ST thread.

#2 6 years ago

Its boring to listen to from what Ive seen. As far as play I think it looks great though. The ramps remind me of SM and the spaceship toy is cool. I just wasnt to into the movies but I think Stern did a good job.

#3 6 years ago
Quoted from FrederikFrost:

Hello folks.
After watching several videos from Papa, and their livestream today I've found myself sitting here thinking, that I just don't enjoy watching ST at all. I don't know how why, as I in general love watching those tournaments (not as much as playing myself obviously > ) but ST just doesn't seem to do it for me. I think I got the rules down quite well, and I understand what's going on, but I just feel, meh. Other machines I've seen doesn't do this, be it Bally, Stern, Williams or whatever.
Does anyone else have that feeling about this machine in particular?
(Note, I bet ST is A BLAST to play, though I don't know as I don't have that kind of funds- this topic is merely discussing watching the machine).
EDIT: This is NOT a bash ST thread.

Might not be your game and that is okay.

I had a JD that I couldn't stand. The rules seemed rather boring to me and just couldn't get into the game. Everyone has there favorites and ones they dislike. I couldn't imagine watching someone play it either. Would be torture.

#4 6 years ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

Might not be your game and that is okay.
I had a JD that I couldn't stand. The rules seemed rather boring to me and just couldn't get into the game. Everyone has there favorites and ones they dislike. I couldn't imagine watching someone play it either. Would be torture.

Maybe, though I think it looks great to actually play, with all the flow ramps etc, but watching it might just not be me.

#5 6 years ago

Disclaimer: I am not attempting to turn this into a WOZ versus ST battle as this is about something other than playing the pin.

That said, I do believe that the LCD's biggest contribution is to the other players/watchers. While the argument about what an LCD contributes to play is yet to be settled, the LCD seems to add to the experience of watching someone else play ... and this contribution will continue to grow as the use becomes more widespread and focused.

No doubt ST would be more fun to watch with an LCD.

#6 6 years ago

I hated watching them hold the ball until the mode was over.

#7 6 years ago
Quoted from BowlingJim:

I hated watching them hold the ball until the mode was over.

Yeah that may be something that takes some of the buzz off. Timing out modes is not for the viewers pleasure, Thats for sure! :=)

#8 6 years ago
Quoted from FrederikFrost:

Yeah that may be something that takes some of the buzz off. Timing out modes is not for the viewers pleasure, Thats for sure! :=)

Did you watch Bowen's tutorial? Might be better than watching the finals from Expo.

#9 6 years ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

Did you watch Bowen's tutorial? Might be better than watching the finals from Expo.

Yeah, I liked it as introduction, and I actually thought it was solid! Ever since then I have just been disappointed in tournament play :< It's been used a lot lately in tournaments but it just have me tab out and do something else, unlike most other machines, where I actually find myself drawn to watch.

I guess it's just not my game to watch.

#10 6 years ago

I find it quite enjoyable to watch. Better than something like MM or DM or TAF for me.

To each their own I say.

#11 6 years ago

What you mean you don't like watching players stand and time out modes?

That seemed to be the strategy in ST today. Play Space Jumps, try to bring 3rd mode into multi, and time out modes to reach Kiwasaki multiball. I've brought up concerns about ST software in three different threads, and everyone keeps ignoring how simple and stale the software is right now.

I think you should be forced to complete a mode to get credit for it. Needs a lot of rule enhancement but that'd be a good start.

#12 6 years ago
Quoted from mechslave:

What you mean you don't like watching players stand and time out modes?
That seemed to be the strategy in ST today. Play Space Jumps, try to bring 3rd mode into multi, and time out modes to reach Kiwasaki multiball. I've brought up concerns about ST software in three different threads, and everyone keeps ignoring how simple and stale the software is right now.
I think you should be forced to complete a mode to get credit for it. Needs a lot of rule enhancement but that'd be a good start.

Don't you know the 6 mode totals are part of KM MB.

#13 6 years ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

Don't you know the 6 mode totals are part of KM MB.

Yep, but they were still doing it. They play 2-3 modes, maybe a 4th during Vengence MB. If you aren't in Super Ramps or a multi, then they'd time the other modes out. I know, your jackpot total will be less. But that's what was happening. Re-read the thread title to see what we're discussing.

#14 6 years ago
Quoted from mechslave:

Yep, but they were still doing it. They play 2-3 modes, maybe a 4th Vengence MB. If you aren't in Super Ramps or a multi, then they'd time the other modes out. I know, your jackpot total will be less. But that's what was happening. Re-read the thread title to see what we're discussing.

Who ended up winning today?

#15 6 years ago

this thread is boring to read.....

-2
#16 6 years ago
Quoted from magnoliarichj:

this thread is boring to read.....

Then don't

#17 6 years ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

Who ended up winning today?

I believe Bowen won. Zach, Bowden...not sure who was 2nd/3rd. And Jeff Palmer (pinball corpse) was 4th. I was watching it on iPad while big screen had the Dolphins v Panthers going.

#18 6 years ago
Quoted from mechslave:

What you mean you don't like watching players stand and time out modes?
That seemed to be the strategy in ST today. Play Space Jumps, try to bring 3rd mode into multi, and time out modes to reach Kiwasaki multiball. I've brought up concerns about ST software in three different threads, and everyone keeps ignoring how simple and stale the software is right now.
I think you should be forced to complete a mode to get credit for it. Needs a lot of rule enhancement but that'd be a good start.

While it's important to get to Kalahari Multiball, that's not the end-all, and the rules make that mode more valuable depending on how you've performed to that point.

The software is not simple or stale in my opinion. The ability for players to go for Level 2 or Level 3 modes immediately adds another dimension to the ruleset, literally. I don't understand why people are bashing these rules, to me they are pretty fun and solid. Are there potential improvements, sure, but you could say that about any game, any time.

#19 6 years ago
Quoted from mechslave:

Yep, but they were still doing it. They play 2-3 modes, maybe a 4th during Vengence MB. If you aren't in Super Ramps or a multi, then they'd time the other modes out. I know, your jackpot total will be less. But that's what was happening. Re-read the thread title to see what we're discussing.

This is not actually what happened, at least not in my own play. I know other players were timing out to get the multiball, but they sacrificed point value to do so. In the first-edition software this was a good plan, but I don't feel it is the best way to play the game for score in the current version.

#20 6 years ago
Quoted from bkerins:

This is not actually what happened, at least not in my own play. I know other players were timing out to get the multiball, but they sacrificed point value to do so. In the first-edition software this was a good plan, but I don't feel it is the best way to play the game for score in the current version.

Well, I think you just play a little bit more of modes than most of us, but you still timed out Nerd yesterday on your winning game

I think alot of it comes down to game state. If ball one and two are good, I will play modes more, but if I am on ball 3, timing out to get to multiball seems to offer more reward for the risk. This will only get better (if) the software is completed and Kobayashi offers something after it's finished.

Regardless, timing out modes to a certain extend is certainly something nearly every tournament player is doing.

#21 6 years ago
Quoted from bkerins:

The software is not simple or stale in my opinion. The ability for players to go for Level 2 or Level 3 modes immediately adds another dimension to the ruleset, literally. I don't understand why people are bashing these rules, to me they are pretty fun and solid. Are there potential improvements, sure, but you could say that about any game, any time.

I don't understand the 2 and 3 deep modes, like Space Jump II and Space Jump III.... what's the advantage to going 3 deep? You'd get Super Ramps but you also get it with the normal 3 in a row, which gets you that much closer to Kobayashi?

Of all the matches yesterday, the games on ST were definitely the most boring, and every player (I believe) timed out modes in their games on it. Every game on ST looked to roughly go the same strategy towards Kobayashi, by way of Space Jumps/Save the Entr/Prime Dir, bringing a mode or Super Ramps into the main multi, and then timing out the final 2-3 modes on the other side of the triangle. Definitely more "boring to watch" than the other games, no doubt, and since all the games followed roughly the same strategy involving timing out modes, it felt stale.

#22 6 years ago
Quoted from mechslave:

I don't understand the 2 and 3 deep modes, like Space Jump II and Space Jump III.... what's the advantage to going 3 deep? You'd get Super Ramps but you also get it with the normal 3 in a row, which gets you that much closer to Kobayashi?
Of all the matches yesterday, the games on ST were definitely the most boring, and every player (I believe) timed out modes in their games on it. Every game on ST looked to roughly go the same strategy towards Kobayashi, by way of Space Jumps/Save the Entr/Prime Dir, bringing a mode or Super Ramps into the main multi, and then timing out the final 2-3 modes on the other side of the triangle. Definitely more "boring to watch" than the other games, no doubt, and since all the games followed roughly the same strategy involving timing out modes, it felt stale.

Sorry, you are wrong. Completing the 3rd version of any if the modes will give you 2x shoot multiplier.

#23 6 years ago

Maybe rather than turning on instant info if you are standing there with a ball cradled they should just start playing something like the Jeopardy theme really lound to try to shame and embarass, and at the very least annoy, time out players.

Or they could code the game to give less of an incentive

And the 3 deep modes don't make sense to me either. What is the point of going 3 deep (do the points escalate nicely?) vs just going for KM multiball?

#24 6 years ago

I alos like tou watch tournaments but I prefer games with a short balltime / hard games, like flash gordon...

ST modes are also all the same...

#25 6 years ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

Maybe rather than turning on instant info if you are standing there with a ball cradled they should just start playing something like the Jeopardy theme really lound to try to shame and embarass, and at the very least annoy, time out players.
Or they could code the game to give less of an incentive
And the 3 deep modes don't make sense to me either. What is the point of going 3 deep (do the points escalate nicely?) vs just going for KM multiball?

Shot Multiplier .

#26 6 years ago

Boring to watch any pinball unless I am playing and it was especially BORING reading this thread!

#27 6 years ago

The other thing people need to realize is that Kawasaki multiball is 2 ball only, and unless you pick up the add-a-ball, the points to be gained in that mode are a number of shots into it. It isn't easy to extract the millions of point built up thru the modes just by flailing around with 2 balls, that Kahuna MB can come to a very quick end, making all that timing out even more incorrect for strategy.

Also, the second and third levels give some serious points as well if you can make the shots as combos. Well over 1 mil per shot on tier 3 if you can keep it going. At Expo my biggest scores came from bringing multiballs into tier 2 and 3 modes and keeping combos going. Only issue is that the doubler on the shot after tier 3 completion only lasts the ball, not the game like super ramps does. Super ramps is basically ~8-9 mil sitting on the table (undoubled) for the rest of the game whereas the doubler can disappear immediately.

What I'd like to see as super aggressive strategy is getting a ramp doubler thru tier 3 (using multiballs to make tier 3 achievable) then getting super ramps going by timing modes out. You should be able to pick up super ramps at almost 4 mil per shot on combos. The safe way to play that would be to get 2 done on Save the enterprise, 1 on space jump, then complete save the enterprise 3 (with a MB preferably) which will double right ramp, then time out prime directive on the same ball.

#28 6 years ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

Sorry, you are wrong. Completing the 3rd version of any if the modes will give you 2x shoot multiplier.

LOL It was a question, how can I be wrong when I simply asked what it does? Ok, so playing (or timing out) 3 modes deep will give you a shot multiplier. I didn't see anyone trying to do that, so the path towards Kobayashi with mode time-outs is the preferred strategy.

The point remains. ST was the most boring of all the games to watch. Every game, at some point, on ST involved watching a player stand around and time out modes. And it was the only machine whose rules encouraged mode time-outs, which I hate.

I feel the rules would be less stale if mode completion was required to get credit for a mode. And if it was actually difficult to accomplish... like you have to hit two combos in certain amount of time (hit a shot which lights another shot for a couple seconds), chase a shot around, lighting the shots for mode completion is qualified by one initial (tough) shot or combo, etc. Things like that. Those are interesting to me. These modes seem to all merge together a bit and just don't seem very interesting. Hey, it's an opinion! There's nothing I saw which is as interesting as Fireball Frenzy or Seek and Destroy, or ....pick almost any mode in LOTR or TSPP. To me, the way you can time outs modes and complete them makes a ruleset seem stale by comparison, and yes I know, I know, you won't get as much credit for it in the final multiball. Adding that helps, sure, but I'm not overly impressed by this ruleset yet.

#29 6 years ago
Quoted from mechslave:

I feel the rules would be less stale if mode completion was required to get credit for a mode. And if it was actually difficult to accomplish... like you have to hit two combos in certain amount of time (hit a shot which lights another shot for a couple seconds), chase a shot around, lighting the shots for mode completion is qualified by one initial (tough) shot or combo, etc.

Tier 2 and 3 missions are like this. Tier 2 has a required amount of shots for completion in a time limit with your progress saved on time expiry, and Tier 3 has a required amount of shots in a time limit that resets if you run out of time.

I'm not overly impressed by this ruleset yet.

Lets keep in mind this is the second large tournament ST has been in. Strategy right now is basically similar to "Warmachine all day". Timing out for Kuahara MB is simply the safest basic strategy right now. One tweak to software or a realization of a player that there is less risk elsewhere will change things. Look how many unique approaches ACDC is offering up now, and I would say ST already has more potential for scoring strategies.

One unique thing no one mentions is there being a finite number of big points (or shots rather) on the board in a lot of these modes: KM multiball, Super spinner, Super ramps, etc.. all have 'X' number of shots on the playfield that you really need to collect on combo, or else you just waste the opportunity.

#30 6 years ago
Quoted from FrederikFrost:

Does anyone else have that feeling about this machine in particular?

I do.
I love watching acdc, metallica, mm and all the others. This one just feels boring. Of course i will have to play one first before i can know if the gameplay is good or not.

I bought Tron without ever playing it first. The videos were a blast to watch and the machine just felt right. After i get it, turned out it was way better than i expected.
As for ACDC, i am crazy about it just by watching you guys play.. will buy one for sure one day.
ST just feels a little boring as for rules. This one falls into the category "will never buy unless i try it first."

#31 6 years ago

Ok, so completion of prime directive I, space jump I, and save the enterprise I give super ramps. Can someone please post the following:

1. Which 3 level 1 mode completions give super spinner (I think it's the bottom three of the triangle) - I can then figure out which 3 modes' level I completion gives super pops

2. Shot Map correspondences: what level III mode completions yield which shot doublers (it was posted that save the enterprise III completion doubles right ramp)?

3. Are those correspondences from question 2. the same for cobbyoni palou shots (so save the enterprise III doubles right ramp and I am asking if the right ramp during cobbyoni palou awards accumulated save the enterprise mode points) ?

4. Are level II and level III mode points added to cobbyoni palou shots or only mode points accumalated through level I ?

5. Not a question, but on MET coffin can be brought in after sparky is started. same with snake and gravemarker (commentators at PAPATV said you have to start coffin first to stack it with another mb).

Thank you.
solarride

#32 6 years ago

Easy software fix: freeze the timer if you cradle. Ever try timing out a TOTAN fireball?

#33 6 years ago
Quoted from SolarRide:

5. Not a question, but on MET coffin can be brought in after sparky is started. same with snake and gravemarker (commentators at PAPATV said you have to start coffin first to stack it with another mb).
Thank you.
solarride

You are thinking of Met pro. Prem/ LE you cannot.

Also since the shot doublers on ST go away at the end of the ball unlike the captains chair modes the mode timeout to KM is the only viable strat. If Lonnie changes it to stay the whole game or X amount of shots you will see more strategy variation.

#34 6 years ago

Yes, I have only played the MET pro. Thank you. With regard to star trek strat as of v1.3, I was thinking that you could leave one mode completely unstarted (not even level I). Complete level 2s on the remaining modes, and then level III of a ramp mutliplier (like save the enterprise) and then start level 1 of unstarted mode, time out and start coobyoni paluo for 2x doubled right ramp and plus super ramp, plus mode II accumulated points on shots (assuming these aggregate for coobyoi shot points).

Quoted from sk8ball:

You are thinking of Met pro. Prem/ LE you cannot.
Also since the shot doublers on ST go away at the end of the ball unlike the captains chair modes the mode timeout to KM is the only viable strat. If Lonnie changes it to stay the whole game or X amount of shots you will see more strategy variation.

#35 6 years ago
Quoted from SolarRide:

Ok, so completion of prime directive I, space jump I, and save the enterprise I give super ramps. Can someone please post the following:
1. Which 3 level 1 mode completions give super spinner (I think it's the bottom three of the triangle) - I can then figure out which 3 modes' level I completion gives super pops

Correct

2. Shot Map correspondences: what level III mode completions yield which shot doublers (it was posted that save the enterprise III completion doubles right ramp)?
3. Are those correspondences from question 2. the same for cobbyoni palou shots (so save the enterprise III doubles right ramp and I am asking if the right ramp during cobbyoni palou awards accumulated save the enterprise mode points) ?

The KM multiball shots correspond to the doublers. I don't know them off the top of my head, but pull a video of KM multiball and the colors will show you where the doublers will fall (to my knowledge)

4. Are level II and level III mode points added to cobbyoni palou shots or only mode points accumalated through level I ?

Don't know. Wouldn't surprise me either way. I don't know if anyone can confirm at this point, or even confirm what the Kalamazoo Magoo multiball is for tier 2 or 3.

#36 6 years ago

You guys are cracking me up with the mode names in this thread

#37 6 years ago

Thank you SLC. I should have realized the color correspondence.

Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

Correct

The KM multiball shots correspond to the doublers. I don't know them off the top of my head, but pull a video of KM multiball and the colors will show you where the doublers will fall (to my knowledge)

Don't know. Wouldn't surprise me either way. I don't know if anyone can confirm at this point, or even confirm what the Kalamazoo Magoo multiball is for tier 2 or 3.

#38 6 years ago
Quoted from bkerins:

While it's important to get to Kalahari Multiball

The what?!

#39 6 years ago

He meant Calamari.

-1
#40 6 years ago

i agree with op. slow grindy gameplay. looks satisfying to play but i turn the streams off when it comes on.

i personally wish these companies would do a lot more to encourage/reward playing fast.

#41 6 years ago

Are the Calamari and Nerd modes stackable?

#42 6 years ago

I thought I've seen it all with ideas for new threads but this one takes the cake. Need to write a book on how many ways to bash ST and Stern. Maybe a Dilbert book.

#43 6 years ago

Ok, for those that are color blind, I took the liberty of freezing

at 15:52 and came up with

Shot Doubler and tekkamaki maroon correspondence map (can be placed right next to the song bonus chart of someone's website if they want ):

Prime Directive: Left saucer
Klingon Battle: left ramp
Save the Enterprise: Right ramp
Space Jump: right orbit
Destroy the Drill:Warp Ramp (Side Ramp)
Nero:Left Spinner

Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

Correct

The KM multiball shots correspond to the doublers. I don't know them off the top of my head, but pull a video of KM multiball and the colors will show you where the doublers will fall (to my knowledge)

Don't know. Wouldn't surprise me either way. I don't know if anyone can confirm at this point, or even confirm what the Kalamazoo Magoo multiball is for tier 2 or 3.

Post edited by SolarRide : Dtd had wrong shot assignment

#44 6 years ago

No.

Quoted from molspin:

Are the Calamari and Nerd modes stackable?

#45 6 years ago
Quoted from mechslave:

LOL It was a question, how can I be wrong when I simply asked what it does? Ok, so playing (or timing out) 3 modes deep will give you a shot multiplier. I didn't see anyone trying to do that, so the path towards Kobayashi with mode time-outs is the preferred strategy.
The point remains. ST was the most boring of all the games to watch. Every game, at some point, on ST involved watching a player stand around and time out modes. And it was the only machine whose rules encouraged mode time-outs, which I hate.
I feel the rules would be less stale if mode completion was required to get credit for a mode. And if it was actually difficult to accomplish... like you have to hit two combos in certain amount of time (hit a shot which lights another shot for a couple seconds), chase a shot around, lighting the shots for mode completion is qualified by one initial (tough) shot or combo, etc. Things like that. Those are interesting to me. These modes seem to all merge together a bit and just don't seem very interesting. Hey, it's an opinion! There's nothing I saw which is as interesting as Fireball Frenzy or Seek and Destroy, or ....pick almost any mode in LOTR or TSPP. To me, the way you can time outs modes and complete them makes a ruleset seem stale by comparison, and yes I know, I know, you won't get as much credit for it in the final multiball. Adding that helps, sure, but I'm not overly impressed by this ruleset yet.

Sorry. I misread your post and apologize.

#46 6 years ago
Quoted from mechslave:

I don't understand the 2 and 3 deep modes, like Space Jump II and Space Jump III.... what's the advantage to going 3 deep? You'd get Super Ramps but you also get it with the normal 3 in a row, which gets you that much closer to Kobayashi?
Of all the matches yesterday, the games on ST were definitely the most boring, and every player (I believe) timed out modes in their games on it. Every game on ST looked to roughly go the same strategy towards Kobayashi, by way of Space Jumps/Save the Entr/Prime Dir, bringing a mode or Super Ramps into the main multi, and then timing out the final 2-3 modes on the other side of the triangle. Definitely more "boring to watch" than the other games, no doubt, and since all the games followed roughly the same strategy involving timing out modes, it felt stale.

I won't disagree with the similar player strategies. One purpose of going II or III deep is that the modes are worth more points -- Klingon II and Nerd II are very big -- and completing a III lights a shot doubler. A player who is sitting well toward Kobayashi should consider playing a II or III mode instead to boost a shot value or just to cash some points.

It's interesting that there's been bashing of the game as a mode-timeout fest, when the same general concept was used in Star Trek TNG. In that game, there are 7 modes and an eighth final mode, and your performance in the 7 modes determines the relative value of the final mode. Players who are close to Final Frontier will frequently start a mode with the express purpose of timing it out.

#47 6 years ago

Two comments:

First, I wish there was a way to time out modes without waiting. I think that having there be a reasonable decision point on the game between playing or not playing modes is an interesting rule: I just wish it didn't take 30 seconds. Use the punch it! or start buttons, maybe, to immediately set the mode to 'final shot'?

Second:

Quoted from SolarRide:

Shot Doubler and tekkamaki maroon correspondence map (can be placed right next to the song bonus chart of someone's website if they want ):

Prime Directive: Left saucer
Klingon Battle: left ramp
Save the Enterprise: Right ramp
Space Jump: right orbit
Destroy the Drill:Vengeance Target
Nero:Left Spinner

Sk8ball commented in an earlier thread that the doubler for DtD was actually the warp ramp. He was hoping he could cash in some sweet vengeance at double scoring and was sad.

#48 6 years ago
Quoted from bkerins:

It's interesting that there's been bashing of the game as a mode-timeout fest, when the same general concept was used in Star Trek tng.

Yeah, for me personally, it's about making the ruleset better, not bashing it. I love the shots and the theme, and I'd maybe like to own one someday. So when I comment on the ruleset, I'm trying to find ways to make it better, ie. worth my precious money and sacred space in the future.

I do like the idea of going 3 deep for a shot doubler! Right now, I think if they just made the shots a little more varied for modes, and required completion (not just a 'final shot') in order to get credit for the mode, then those two things alone would fix many common complaints. And it'd also shake the nick "Time-Out Trek."

For purposes of this thread, it was more about what would make it more interesting to watch, and those same sorts of fixes would apply to that as well.

#49 6 years ago

The damn Khaleesi Multiball for cryin out loud! You know what he meant!

#50 6 years ago
Quoted from Excalabur:

Sk8ball commented in an earlier thread that the doubler for DtD was actually the warp ramp. He was hoping he could cash in some sweet vengeance at double scoring and was sad.

This is correct. No 4x vengeance scoring Would like to see the Captains Chair awards stack when you finish with a corner mode. So if I complete PD mode to finish the left and right sides I should get Super Ramps AND Bumpers. Would definitely add some strategy rather than just blowing out the right side awards ASAP.

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