(Topic ID: 329565)

Stern Split Second No flashes Playfield GI on No backbox lighting

By MarkAnderson

1 year ago


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There are 341 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 7.
#51 1 year ago
Quoted from sparky672:

I agree with both of these statements. Very very unlikely every winding in the transformer is blown. And besides, the voltage for some of your lights is still coming from someplace.
Are you sure you had your meter set to read "AC", not DC volts? Depending on the meter and absent any offset voltage, when reading AC using the DC setting, it shows zero.

I definitley had it on AC. I was able to get 120 out of the wall outlet. It was connected to the wall and the lugs. I tested it with the new rectifier board attached. I will test again maybe there was unseen oxidation buildup on the lugs that prevented a connection. I will install a new battery in the DMM also.

#52 1 year ago
Quoted from yamangold:

Took a look at my split second this morning, my transformer is quite different than yours, part # 37-9718. note it has lugs 16, 17 & 18 which are missing on yours?
the manual also shows a jumper between 1-3 and 9-11 for 115V.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

I can see on the top of yours in the photos that it is a 16b-3 which is the earlier less than 3 flipper version of mine.

#53 1 year ago

At the moment I am using 7 and 6 for a input as stated above. Is it possible that I should be using 1 and 5 as shown in the following diagram ?

Pinside_forum_7080920_0 (resized).jpgPinside_forum_7080920_0 (resized).jpg
#54 1 year ago

6 is an output did you mean 1 and 5?

#55 1 year ago
Quoted from MarkAnderson:

At the moment I am using 7 and 6 for a input as stated above.

As long as the schematic is correct, that would explain zero volts.

#56 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

6 is an output did you mean 1 and 5?

Currently as instructed in previous posts I was using 6 and 7 and getting nothing. after finding the diagram I think I need to use 1 and 5.

#57 1 year ago

Possibly didn't read all of post 49 ? regarding changing the lug joiners?

6 & 7 will always be the same for J2 on the rec board for incoming AC, it's where 6 & 7 join to the transformer that matters.

#58 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

Possibly didn't read all of post 49 ? regarding changing the lug joiners?
6 & 7 will always be the same for J2 on the rec board for incoming AC, it's where 6 & 7 join to the transformer that matters.

You may want to go back and fix post 35:

Quoted from Rikoshay:

... join your mains AC power to lug 6 and your AC return to lug 7

#59 1 year ago
Possibly didn't read all of post 49 ? regarding changing the lug joiners?

Yes you are correct !

#60 1 year ago
Quoted from sparky672:

You may want to go back and fix post 35:

thanks for pointing this out sparky672 , I have corrected it from using the words 'lugs' to 'pins'.

apologies to MarkAnderson if this, which I feel it did, put you off.

#61 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

thanks for pointing this out sparky672 , I have corrected it from using the words 'lugs' to 'pins'.
apologies to MarkAnderson if this, which I feel it did, put you off.

Thank you for all the points in 49. I think that they are all good points. I am going to go complete them all. I never take the points of someone who is more experienced than I as criticism.

#62 1 year ago
Quoted from yamangold:

Took a look at my split second this morning, my transformer is quite different than yours, part # 37-9718. note it has lugs 16, 17 & 18 which are missing on yours?
the manual also shows a jumper between 1-3 and 9-11 for 115V.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

I have 17 and 18. I dont see 16 at the moment but I think that it is there.

#63 1 year ago

now reading post 56 I understand what is happening, and sorry to have mislead you.

1. change jumpers on transformer to suit your incoming mains, this means removing joiner 9 to 11.

2. add new jumper from 5 to 7

3. remove yellow wire (that goes to J2 pin 6) from lug 9 to lug 7 on the transformer

4. apply your mains to lugs 1 or 3 (tied together) and the other 5 or 7 (tied together) and the ground to a transformer leg.

5. with mains attached and meter on ACV I hope to see you report correct voltages

#64 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

thanks for pointing this out sparky672 , I have corrected it from using the words 'lugs' to 'pins'.
apologies to MarkAnderson if this, which I feel it did, put you off.

No issues. Had I been thinking and not doing the cookbook method I should have figured it out. I am happy for the help.

#65 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

now reading post 56 I understand what is happening, and sorry to have mislead you.
1. change jumpers on transformer to suit your incoming mains, this means removing joiner 9 to 11.
2. add new jumper from 5 to 7
3. remove yellow wire (that goes to J2 pin 6) from lug 9 to lug 7 on the transformer
4. apply your mains to lugs 1 or 3 (tied together) and the other 5 or 7 (tied together) and the ground to a transformer leg.
5. with mains attached and meter on ACV I hope to see you report correct voltages

I am happy for the help.

#66 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

now reading post 56 I understand what is happening, and sorry to have mislead you.
1. change jumpers on transformer to suit your incoming mains, this means removing joiner 9 to 11.
2. add new jumper from 5 to 7
3. remove yellow wire (that goes to J2 pin 6) from lug 9 to lug 7 on the transformer
4. apply your mains to lugs 1 or 3 (tied together) and the other 5 or 7 (tied together) and the ground to a transformer leg.
5. with mains attached and meter on ACV I hope to see you report correct voltages

I still have the rectifier board connected with no fuses. I connect the power to 1 and 5.
2 & 6 I get 50 VAC
8 & 10 I get 0 VAC
17 & 18 I get 6.6 VAC
13 & 14 I get 7.6 VAC
15 & 16 I get 12 VAC

Thoughts on the 0 at 8 and 10?

#67 1 year ago
Quoted from MarkAnderson:

I connect the power to 1 and 5.

And you also have 1 jumped to 3, and 5 jumped to 7, right?

#68 1 year ago
Quoted from sparky672:

And you also have 1 jumped to 3, and 5 jumped to 7, right?

Yes 1 jumped to 3 and 5 jumped to 7 and I checked both tabs for continuity after soldering. I removed the existing jumper between 9 and 11.

#69 1 year ago
Quoted from MarkAnderson:

Yes 1 jumped to 3 and 5 jumped to 7 and I checked both tabs for continuity after soldering. I removed the existing jumper between 9 and 11.

Power it down and test the resistance of the windings at lugs 8 to 10. If you're getting zero volts, I would expect open windings (infinite resistance) here... and that of course would be confirmation of a failure.

#70 1 year ago

was by some chance your meter set to a lower AC setting that didn't read the high voltage of 170 VAC?

#71 1 year ago

also check the lugs of 8 and 10 and make sure the windings are definitely making contact with the solder lugs.

you can follow the winding back a little from both lugs and if there, you can scrape back some of the coating to ensure continuity, if the wire is bare still check.

#72 1 year ago
Quoted from sparky672:

And you also have 1 jumped to 3, and 5 jumped to 7, right?

Yes and removed the jump from 9 -11.

#73 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

was by some chance your meter set to a lower AC setting that didn't read the high voltage of 170 VAC?

It was set to 200 VAC.

#74 1 year ago

What is your resistance reading from 8 to 10 ?

#75 1 year ago
Quoted from sparky672:

What is your resistance reading from 8 to 10 ?

I put the meter on Ohms and touch the black to red and it goes down to almost nothing a very small number. Then I touch the black on 8 and red on 10 the terminals for 8 and 10 and it shows a 1 and there is no change I just moved them around to see if there was any issue with oxidation on the terminals that might be preventing a reading. Then I switch them just to check red on 8 and black on 10 and it still says 1. I took a light activated continuity sensor and tested it from one pin of the tester to the other and got a light. Then I touched one pin of the tester on 8 and one pin of the tester on 10 and there was no light no matter how much I moved it around on the terminals that have oxidation on them.

#76 1 year ago
Quoted from sparky672:

What is your resistance reading from 8 to 10 ?

At the moment I am checking the lugs of 8 and 10. I also making sure that the windings are definitely making contact with the solder lugs. Will post results in 5 min.

#77 1 year ago
Quoted from sparky672:

25¢ per foot seems expensive for 18 AWG stranded wire in PVC. With the bulk discount, that's about double what industrial suppliers are charging. On the plus side, you can get 10 colors in any length so there would be very little waste. Buyer beware, and shop around.
Pinball suppliers are great for pinball parts, but this generic stuff can easily be obtained elsewhere. Is this your store? I only ask because the website does not say much about them, and the limited inventory focused on pinball makes me wonder if it's one of those temporary niche stores. The company name is generic but the inventory is pinball focused. Not necessarily a problem, but when something new pops up, one should be careful.
I wonder if anyone still makes wire with the 3 colored stripes like in an old Gottlieb? Or maybe not; by color code, not counting 000 and 999, that would be 998 unique stripe combinations.

Just wanted to add that this is rockwell store. He's local to me and a stand up guy. Here is his thread about the store:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/comin-soon-pinball-wire-

#78 1 year ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

Just wanted to add that this is rockwell store. He's local to me and a stand up guy. Here is his thread about the store:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/comin-soon-pinball-wire-

what is an rockwell store?

#79 1 year ago

i have experienced transformers that won't give a reading, or correct reading unless they have a voltage drop (load). I don't believe Bally/Stern to be this way but you could try putting your fuses back in and connecting J2 and checking the test points?

worst case scenario is maybe someone nearby can confirm your displays are good, you sell them if so and buy a LED set of displays for example:
https://www.wolffpactech.com/

still odd that that winding is open but you seem to have done all I can think of to test the transformer, you've done well.

#80 1 year ago
Quoted from MarkAnderson:

what is an rockwell store?

Rockwell is the Pinsider that owns the Wire-bot store that you were discussing earlier in this thread.

#81 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

also check the lugs of 8 and 10 and make sure the windings are definitely making contact with the solder lugs.
you can follow the winding back a little from both lugs and if there, you can scrape back some of the coating to ensure continuity, if the wire is bare still check.

There is definitely oxidation so I will scrape back some of that to see if it makes a difference. I don't see much of a winding to follow. I look at the other lugs and don't see a winding to follow either. They all have wire wrapped around the base of the lugs that I would assume must be the winding.
Its about 14 or 16 gauge It is kind of a silvery color solid not stranded. Would the winding wires be a small gauge like a wire on a flipper coil or thick like a 14-16 gauge or something in between? I don't see any wires going to the other lugs either. On the 10 lug there is a very thin wire that protrudes out of the wax paper. It looks like it might have been soldered to the 10 lug at one point in time but it does look like it has been severed over time. I have a Stern Catacomb with the exact same transformer (16b-6). I will look at the Catacomb transformer to see if it is obvious that there is a wire missing on the Split Second.

#82 1 year ago
Quoted from MarkAnderson:

what is an rockwell store?

Quoted from FatPanda:

Rockwell is the Pinsider that owns the Wire-bot store that you were discussing earlier in this thread.

It is true. I am @rockwell. Wire-Bot is my store

#83 1 year ago

Can you post a clear pic from above of where the wire comes from the windings and join to lugs 8 and 10 ?

None of the wires are stranded that are used for the windings in the transformer that I'm aware of.

#84 1 year ago

Do these work?

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#85 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

Can you post a clear pic from above of where the wire comes from the windings and join to lugs 8 and 10 ?
None of the wires are stranded that are used for the windings in the transformer that I'm aware of.

Do you think that it is possible to find the broken wire and pull it out and solder it together?

#86 1 year ago
Quoted from MarkAnderson:

Do you think that it is possible to find the broken wire and pull it out and solder it together?

Have any thoughts on this? https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/transformer-refurbish-suggestions

#87 1 year ago
Quoted from MarkAnderson:

Do you think that it is possible to find the broken wire and pull it out and solder it together?

First, I want to mention it is great that you got to all expected voltages except for lugs 8-10. This is possible to pull out the wire and get it repaired. BUT, I would not worry about THAT because, according to your post here--->

Quoted from MarkAnderson:

Then I touch the black on 8 and red on 10 the terminals for 8 and 10 and it shows a 1 and there is no change

So, you got a "1 ohms" resistance reading on lugs 8-10. THAT means the wire is actually connected just fine. If there is an internal issue you would be HARD PRESSED to repair it without some experience with such things. First, you need special magnet core wire and it's hard to "turn" multiple windings manually and get everything correct. PLEASE don't assuming you need a new transformer until you exhaust all other options. They are hard to find and expensive.

Does you meter go ABOVE 200VAC for testing? Perhaps the voltage expected there is over 200VAC ? Although the chart here says it should be 170VAC...

from my experience, it could actually read at something like 205 or event 215. For example, if your meter is set to 200 and the volts are 210, you would get no reading.
Screen Shot 2023-03-07 at 12.42.41 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2023-03-07 at 12.42.41 PM (resized).png

#88 1 year ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

First, I want to mention it is great that you got to all expected voltages except for lugs 8-10. This is possible to pull out the wire and get it repaired. BUT, I would not worry about THAT because, according to your post here--->

So, you got a "1 ohms" resistance reading on lugs 8-10. THAT means the wire is actually connected just fine. If there is an internal issue you would be HARD PRESSED to repair it without some experience with such things. First, you need special magnet core wire and it's hard to "turn" multiple windings manually and get everything correct. PLEASE don't assuming you need a new transformer until you exhaust all other options. They are hard to find and expensive.
Does you meter go ABOVE 200VAC for testing? Perhaps the voltage expected there is over 200VAC ? Although the chart here says it should be 170VAC...
from my experience, it could actually read at something like 205 or event 215. For example, if your meter is set to 200 and the volts are 210, you would get no reading.
[quoted image]

Interesting I will change it to 750 VAC and try it.

#89 1 year ago

that's what i suggesting in post 70.

I reckon and hope your transformer is fine.

I don't suggest trying to recondition it.

#90 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

that's what i suggesting in post 70.
I reckon and hope your transformer is fine.
I don't suggest trying to recondition it.

You did suggest it and I did try it and it didnt work at that time and I did try it again today and it still did not work. I did it again just in case I missed something.

#91 1 year ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

First, I want to mention it is great that you got to all expected voltages except for lugs 8-10. This is possible to pull out the wire and get it repaired. BUT, I would not worry about THAT because, according to your post here--->

So, you got a "1 ohms" resistance reading on lugs 8-10. THAT means the wire is actually connected just fine. If there is an internal issue you would be HARD PRESSED to repair it without some experience with such things. First, you need special magnet core wire and it's hard to "turn" multiple windings manually and get everything correct. PLEASE don't assuming you need a new transformer until you exhaust all other options. They are hard to find and expensive.
Does you meter go ABOVE 200VAC for testing? Perhaps the voltage expected there is over 200VAC ? Although the chart here says it should be 170VAC...
from my experience, it could actually read at something like 205 or event 215. For example, if your meter is set to 200 and the volts are 210, you would get no reading.
[quoted image]

Rikoshay suggested this back in post 70 and I did try it at that point. I tried it again when you suggested it. I have the rectifier board attached and it has working fuses in it but I would imagine the rectifier board is not relevant? I connected it to 120V mains line. I assume that it is not relevant if one line is hot and the other is the return I randomly connected one of the lines to 1 and the other to 5. I plugged the mains line in and tested lugs 2 to 6 and I got 50VAC when the dmm was set to 750VAC. Then I touched 8 and 10 several times but got nothing. I went back to test 2 and 6 just to make sure that I had electrical contact and I did have 50 vac again.

#92 1 year ago

Can you definitely see the transformer windings for lugs 8 & 10 come out from insulation wrapping and confirm they are definitely soldered to the lugs? Assuming yes and this must be driving you around the bend?

Almost anything is possible but I can't understand what would break continuity for that winding.

You have tried continuity and have applied voltage, both with the same results unfortunately.

Are you able to scrape the coating off the wires using say a hobby knife, where they come out from the wrapping? Just gently enough to reveal the copper wire. To be able to see shiny copper wires, as close to where the wires disappear, without tearing the wrapping and trying again?

Another thought is to desolder the wires from the lugs and ever so gently pull on the wires, one at a time to see if the wire may just pull out, explaining the lack of continuity, but I still doubt it. There's no reason I can think of that would cause the wire to break just shy of its connection to the lug.

#93 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

but I can't understand what would break continuity for that winding

I don't believe continuity is broken, because I think he previously stated that he read 1 ohm between 8 & 10. Then again, I am not entirely sure he took that reading with the transformer isolated from the corresponding circuit.

#94 1 year ago
Quoted from sparky672:

I don't believe continuity is broken, because I think he previously stated that he read 1 ohm between 8 & 10. Then again, I am not entirely sure he took that reading with the transformer isolated from the corresponding circuit.


I will do the other things that @rikoshsy suggests. I will check again on ohms on 8 - 10. Do I pull the fuses before I check the ohms on 8 to 10 ?

#95 1 year ago
Quoted from MarkAnderson:

Do I pull the fuses before I check the ohms on 8 to 10

Yes. According to your schematic, if you pull out fuse F2, then transformer winding at lugs 8-10 will be isolated from the machine for a proper reading.

#96 1 year ago
Quoted from sparky672:

Yes. According to your schematic, if you pull out fuse F2, then transformer winding at lugs 8-10 will be isolated from the machine for a proper reading.

Thank you good idea. I pulled fuse 2. I put the multimeter on 200 ohm scale. I scraped the crap out of the two terminals and I touched 8 and 10 and it changed to 13.2. it has never changed before when I touched 8 and 10. It was either scraping the oxidation or less likely when I pressed 8 and 10 it the pressing made a terminal that was unconnected connect.

#97 1 year ago
Quoted from sparky672:

Yes. According to your schematic, if you pull out fuse F2, then transformer winding at lugs 8-10 will be isolated from the machine for a proper reading.

This is like chasing a automobile electrical issue.
I just tried to replicate the numbers and I get nothing. It's on 200ohm scale I touch the probes together and it approaches zero. Then I tough the lugs and there is no change. Before the resistance was about 13 ohm's.

#98 1 year ago
Quoted from MarkAnderson:

I just tried to replicate the numbers and I get nothing.

Double check the integrity of your DMM meter leads... sounds like a lead may have an internal broken connection or where it plugs in could be flaky. Not uncommon. Your DMM also relies on an internal battery for resistance readings. Make sure it's good.

Whenever I get flaky readings, I check to make sure my leads are fully seated into the DMM; sometimes they pop out halfway.

#99 1 year ago
Quoted from sparky672:

Double check the integrity of your DMM meter leads... sounds like a lead may have an internal broken connection or where it plugs in could be flaky. Not uncommon. Your DMM also relies on an internal battery for resistance readings. Make sure it's good.
Whenever I get flaky readings, I check to make sure my leads are fully seated into the DMM; sometimes they pop out halfway.

. I finally figured out that it's a flaky connection between the lugs on 8 and 10 and the windings. If I press really hard on both windings almost to the point that I start to worry I'm going to break them off I get resistance. I still haven't identified which lug because it's so intermittent.

#100 1 year ago

great news!

you could try adding some solder to both lugs to help the winding take hold of the lug and ideally make the fault disappear?

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