(Topic ID: 235445)

Stern Spike Node Board Schematics Troubleshooting and Discussion

By JodyG

5 years ago


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    Post #147 Link to individual Stern PDFs of Spike schematics Posted by HighVoltage (5 years ago)

    Post #171 PDF of the available schematics. Posted by PinMonk (5 years ago)

    Post #411 Fault and current measurements go to the microcontroller. Posted by mbwalker (1 year ago)


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    #325 2 years ago
    Quoted from megadeth2600:

    I don't mention that because there are many, as in hundreds, of off the shelf switching regulators out there to choose from that will easily accept 48V and regulate it down to 5V @ about 80% efficiency with a cost no more than $2.00 USD.
    Here are 17 from Texas Instruments that could have been designed into any Stern node board that required 48V in and 5V out with a max output current of 2.0A ... these are the results of a cursory search too ... I'm positive there are several more ... and this is just TI. Vendors like ST Microelectronics, Analog Devices, Maxim, etc all have their own regulators available that meet or exceed requirements. I'd guess that there are at least 250 devices out there on the market that will be available until at least 2030. More if you don't care about a part's end of life. Also, many of these parts are footprint compatible ... you have a wide range of choices.
    https://www.ti.com/power-management/non-isolated-dc-dc-switching-regulators/step-down-buck/buck-converter-integrated-switch/products.html#p238min=1.5;48&p238max=48;100&p634min=-3;5&p634max=5;92&p451max=2;2.5&p212max=11.704312114989733;100

    A Vin/Vout difference is only considered for efficiency purposes when evaluating a switching regulator ... you tend to only insure you are not exceeding a maximum input voltage. Vin/Vout difference is more of a linear regulator constraint (and a 36V difference in that case would be horrible) ... however, a switching regulators can still regulate 5V from a 48V source with 50% efficiency if the output current is in the microamp range. Of course, current demand will be much, much higher (which results in a much much higher efficiency).
    As an example, Stern's 520-6976-72A node board uses a Monolithic Power Systems MP24943DN ... it has a max input voltage of 55V which is plenty of margin. Again, only efficiency is impacted when comparing the output voltage to the input voltage (this is not a linear regulator). Looking at the curves on the datasheet linked below, the node board will have a conversion efficiency around 75% to 80% assuming an output current of about 0.5A to 1A.
    The regulator also has output overvoltage protection as well as a thermal shutdown mode. If something goes wrong with a linear regulator, you're out of luck until a fuse blows ... you tend to destroy other parts before the fuse opens (mainly driver transistors ... and possibly a pre-driver or logic IC). The switching regulator simply turns off.
    https://www.monolithicpower.com/en/documentview/productdocument/index/version/2/document_type/Datasheet/lang/en/sku/MP24943/document_id/1966

    I remember there being problems in the early days of Spike, but I haven't heard such complaints myself for a few years now. That isn't to say that there isn't a problem ... I could very well be wrong. I just haven't seen many people complaining about node board failure. I think those early problems were due to vibration and connector issues and not the regulators themselves.

    I'll agree with that. It's all of the linear voltage regulation/conversion after the transformer that I dislike. These days, it is a waste of power and money to convert mains voltage to 48VDC solenoid voltage using linear conversion and regulation.

    That is after 10 years of continuous, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week operation with near or at zero mean time between failure. That is a pretty good torture test. They don't get downtime ... at all. Some places will operate the equipment more than 10 years since the telecom grade core and edge routers routers are designed to be scalable and require a substantial investment up front.

    While I sound like a Stern fanboy defending their electronics, I am anything but that. They disgust me anymore. However, I don't think that their electronics will be a problem two decades from now. I suspect mechanical engineers and machinists will be saving the pinball machines of today in the future ... I find the quality of Stern's basic mechanical assemblies to be garbage anymore. I have never had more issues with coil stops and flipper links in my life. If they're cheaping out on that stuff now, wait until they apply the same kind of idiocy to assemblies that are specific to a particular machine. Their profit margin on pinball machines is ridiculously high ... they can *easily* afford to maintain acceptable quality ... however, they don't ... they seem to cut costs and raise prices on everything anymore. Disgusting.

    This is a super interesting discussion, I would actually love to have failure data on recent build of node boards. There is an on going debate where people claim "Stern Spike system reliability is crap", and i'd like to have factual data to assess whether this is right or wrong

    it is not in the interest of Stern to have self dying machine. They need to fix their reliability, as it has a financial impact, so I doubt they just left it "like this", but I could be wrong.

    #330 2 years ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    When I worked for Chrysler, they had a formula for how many warranty repairs were acceptable vs spending more money on the cause of the failure up front.
    I can assure you a lot of large manufacturing concerns have similar formulas and they look at how many parts sold after the sale as well. Selling replacement parts after the warranty period has expired is very profitable in some industries and due to increased volume can lower the BOM of a new machine if still in production. win-win.
    One of the reasons Mercedes Benz purchased Chrysler years ago was to force them into using Benz parts. With millions of Chrysler being churned out it reduced the cost of some Benz parts to pennies (scale) which Benz continued to charge an arm and leg for because the box had "Benz" on it not Chrysler.

    I don't dispute that fact at all, it's actually standard business practice. There's a reason why professional notebook are more reliable than consumer grade notebook for example, and that all boils down to warranty term and the exact calculation you are referring to.

    But a car is not an electronic board. The cost of failure is not in the component cost, it's on the design. And unlike car, pinball machines are still a relatively niche business, it's not likely you have millions of Spike machines out there to justify having spare parts generating a constant revenue flow. At least unless you essentially piss off your customer base, which is not really good practice.

    So I'd still like to get a sense of the actual real world failure rate of Spike 1 and Spike 2 systems, now that the system should have reached maturity. Early failures are expected (design errors, manufacturing errors, business choice - ie cost), but it is in the interest of Stern that machine do not fail while under warranty.

    Reading through the threads, I have a sense that Spike 2 machines seem more reliable than Spike 1.

    #331 2 years ago

    Following up on this, has anyone taken a look as whether the NXP UC bootloaders are readable from a functional node board, and could be replicated ?

    Anyone up for analyzing the protocol (I know I will, just buying a reliable RS485 snooper just for the fun of it)

    #334 2 years ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    At $460 a pop I can assure you there is a tidy amount of profit in a node board.

    Per unit profit, sure. It's actually massive.

    But steady overall revenue for the company to warrant pissing off your entire customer base ? That's where I disagree.

    Quoted from Markharris2000:

    RS485 is a just simple connection scheme that has been around 50 years or more, so a cheap sniffer could probably easily decode what's going on under the playfield. It would be interesting academically to see just how it programmatically works. I suspect a simple command/response protocol of their own design, but easily captured. Note: I believe their license agreement prohibits any such reverse engineering of it.

    I just turn on the pin, never signed a EULA

    This got me intrigued to be fair, so I digged up a little and indeed there is a licence agreement (need to Google for it though).

    The terms clearly articulate "no reverse engineering", however I kind of fail to see how they can actually enforce it, given that, well, I did not sign it... Nor has anyone who is playing the machine at home. For it to be enforcable, it would need to 1/ identify the individual who signed and 2/ be applicable under the law of the country you live in

    But anyway, it's a purely academic exercise of course

    #336 2 years ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    Haaaa.
    Seriously.
    I swear half the posts on Pinside are about some running defect or other with a new pin. Playfield pooling and chipping, half-assed code, poor quality control. And yet when Stern announces a new title people are like TAKE MY MONEY. They sold out Mandalorin LE without a full gameplay video being shown.
    Insane to me. Nothing is going to change with this dynamic running.

    Well you should take a look at JJP GnR playfield thread then

    I'm not a Stern fanboy by any means, and yes QC is an issue. But it's one thing to have a QC issue, and quite another to actually take the decision to not fix design flaws in electronic circuits with the intent of generating revenue from spare parts.

    Guess the distributors and operators are the one who can tell whether they have a lot of RMA on node boards relatively to older products (ie SAM).

    Anyway, we slightly deviated from the original thread intent

    1 month later
    #341 2 years ago
    Quoted from Fubar:

    The protocol has already been decoded by the MPF guys. It's a simple protocol where the MPU initiates all transactions and addresses a single node at a time (except when polling).
    No need to buy a sniffer either: it's easy to intercept the serial port traffic in the linux distro.

    The link you provided points to how to use Spike using MPF, using the USB-serial connection to the main CPU node board, but I did not really see a decoding of the bus traffic, unless I missed it ?

    Also you mention you can intercept the serial port traffic, but if I understand correctly this is not exactly the bus traffic, right ?

    I'd more interested into details on the bus traffic itself and the protocol used (speed, parity, handshake sequence, command sent, etc)

    #344 2 years ago
    Quoted from PinFever:

    and the not so funny thing is mass produced it is like $30 a board.
    even if 14 in a game it is only 420$ where is the Rest of the 7k Pro cost at. 35$ dollar Power supply/50$ dollar lcd screen/ 2 pieces of glass 80$ some wood/ Some coils and hardware / Lic. Labor . we at 2500 yet? ha
    At one point 11-23-2020 they had all The Tech and schematics up for all boards .
    i guess they changed their minds because all links are dead now.. Perhaps scared of a new Pinball browser . If people want tech that bad they can buy a game and reverse engineer it. so wtf?
    [quoted image]

    Schematics are still up on Stern website (at least those that were available before), are you referring to the same content?

    4 months later
    #348 1 year ago
    Quoted from megadeth2600:

    I don't mention that because there are many, as in hundreds, of off the shelf switching regulators out there to choose from that will easily accept 48V and regulate it down to 5V @ about 80% efficiency with a cost no more than $2.00 USD.
    Here are 17 from Texas Instruments that could have been designed into any Stern node board that required 48V in and 5V out with a max output current of 2.0A ... these are the results of a cursory search too ... I'm positive there are several more ... and this is just TI. Vendors like ST Microelectronics, Analog Devices, Maxim, etc all have their own regulators available that meet or exceed requirements. I'd guess that there are at least 250 devices out there on the market that will be available until at least 2030. More if you don't care about a part's end of life. Also, many of these parts are footprint compatible ... you have a wide range of choices.
    https://www.ti.com/power-management/non-isolated-dc-dc-switching-regulators/step-down-buck/buck-converter-integrated-switch/products.html#p238min=1.5;48&p238max=48;100&p634min=-3;5&p634max=5;92&p451max=2;2.5&p212max=11.704312114989733;100

    A Vin/Vout difference is only considered for efficiency purposes when evaluating a switching regulator ... you tend to only insure you are not exceeding a maximum input voltage. Vin/Vout difference is more of a linear regulator constraint (and a 36V difference in that case would be horrible) ... however, a switching regulators can still regulate 5V from a 48V source with 50% efficiency if the output current is in the microamp range. Of course, current demand will be much, much higher (which results in a much much higher efficiency).
    As an example, Stern's 520-6976-72A node board uses a Monolithic Power Systems MP24943DN ... it has a max input voltage of 55V which is plenty of margin. Again, only efficiency is impacted when comparing the output voltage to the input voltage (this is not a linear regulator). Looking at the curves on the datasheet linked below, the node board will have a conversion efficiency around 75% to 80% assuming an output current of about 0.5A to 1A.
    The regulator also has output overvoltage protection as well as a thermal shutdown mode. If something goes wrong with a linear regulator, you're out of luck until a fuse blows ... you tend to destroy other parts before the fuse opens (mainly driver transistors ... and possibly a pre-driver or logic IC). The switching regulator simply turns off.
    https://www.monolithicpower.com/en/documentview/productdocument/index/version/2/document_type/Datasheet/lang/en/sku/MP24943/document_id/1966

    I remember there being problems in the early days of Spike, but I haven't heard such complaints myself for a few years now. That isn't to say that there isn't a problem ... I could very well be wrong. I just haven't seen many people complaining about node board failure. I think those early problems were due to vibration and connector issues and not the regulators themselves.

    I'll agree with that. It's all of the linear voltage regulation/conversion after the transformer that I dislike. These days, it is a waste of power and money to convert mains voltage to 48VDC solenoid voltage using linear conversion and regulation.

    That is after 10 years of continuous, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week operation with near or at zero mean time between failure. That is a pretty good torture test. They don't get downtime ... at all. Some places will operate the equipment more than 10 years since the telecom grade core and edge routers routers are designed to be scalable and require a substantial investment up front.

    While I sound like a Stern fanboy defending their electronics, I am anything but that. They disgust me anymore. However, I don't think that their electronics will be a problem two decades from now. I suspect mechanical engineers and machinists will be saving the pinball machines of today in the future ... I find the quality of Stern's basic mechanical assemblies to be garbage anymore. I have never had more issues with coil stops and flipper links in my life. If they're cheaping out on that stuff now, wait until they apply the same kind of idiocy to assemblies that are specific to a particular machine. Their profit margin on pinball machines is ridiculously high ... they can *easily* afford to maintain acceptable quality ... however, they don't ... they seem to cut costs and raise prices on everything anymore. Disgusting.

    Interesting discussion and feedback

    If you were to assess Spike2 design from the schematics, what would be your take on it in terms of reliability ?

    To me, the major issue is repairability, but this is clearly an architecture choice to favor manufacturing cost over repair.

    7 months later
    #379 1 year ago
    Quoted from paul_8788:

    I wonder if a Spike 2 CPU could run a Spike 1 game. Theoretically nothing stopping it. Might require a recompile of the Spike 1 code though. Might be a longer term solution for Stern rather than supporting/supplying Spike 1 nodes. Of course right now their approach seems to be not supporting it at all, so faint hope...

    I had thought about that, but the DMD is the issue... I don't think Spike 2 CPU board has the DMD connector.

    However for the other node boards (ie not the CPU) , I would tend to think that Spike 2 boards could be used. When taking a look at the available schematics, the ucontroller portion is pretty much identical between all, with just a node ID defined through switches. The boards are reprogrammed by the CPU board at first boot, and the rs485 protocol is electrically identical. Of course there might be some specific node boards which do not exist with spike 2, that could be a problem

    #388 1 year ago

    Conceptually, it's far less of an engineering effort to port Spike 1 code to run on modern Spike 2 CPU board, DMD issue aside, than creating another CPU board with a more recent CPU just for the sake of spare parts.

    DMD could be USB driven (after all, that's what PIN2DMD uses in virtual pinball), so from the HW standpoint they would not need to redesign any new board, everything is pretty much out there already.

    Now whether they want it or not is another story... But if they don't have a solution for existing Spike 1 owner whose CPU board fails, this is a customer PR disaster waiting to happen. So really... they should.

    #393 1 year ago
    Quoted from ChrisHibler:

    Ashram56 Agree with you and I'll say that it's already a disaster, and Stern's lack of attention to it is making it worse. A client asked me to repair her SPIKE "0" MPU for a "Transformers, The Pin". After doing the research, the buck converter they used at the time is obsolete, either pricey to obtain or unobtainable, and there is no pin for pin suitable replacement. The part is an A8498.
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
    https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisHiblerPinball
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

    What is Stern official statement to this customer request for a replacement board ? Do they simply ignore it ?

    #395 1 year ago
    Quoted from ChrisHibler:

    The customer didn't go into the details.
    She mentioned only that she'd been trying for two years to get it fixed.
    Perhaps I'll call Stern myself.
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
    https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisHiblerPinball
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

    Just curious, what are the warranty legal terms that would apply in the US ? It can't be considered as a consumer product with one year warranty only, right ?

    2 weeks later
    #405 1 year ago
    Quoted from Tuukka:

    The overcurrent protection does not help if a driver transistors gets shorted for some reason. A fuse would protect coil and board traces from burning.

    Why ?

    On 520-6935-10 for ex, based on my understanding of the schematics, the overcurrent protection IC actually acts like a fuse. GND for the transistor is not directly connected to physical GND, it has to go through the overcurrent IC. So if overcurrent protection kicks in, physical GND is disconnected from all transistor GND pins. So no reason to fry a trace, even if a transistor is short to ground.

    Or am I missing something ?

    #407 1 year ago
    Quoted from mbwalker:

    Looks like Stern uses the ACS711, which is a Hall Effect sensor (i.e. current sensor). There's IP+ and IP- lines going into the chip, with IP+ being the input, IP- going to ground. The ACS711 monitors the current (via the Hall Effect) on the IP line and if it's excessive, the chip throws a fault on the nFault pin. The VIOUT pin is the actual current measurement output (i.e. spits out an analog voltage that is proportional to the current). I didn't go thru the schematic to see where the VIOUT and nFAULT fault lines go (i.e. it could be hardware shutting the supply off or it could be software based). So there's two thing Stern is looking at likely to indicate a current problem: 1) The current measurement itself, 2) A fault.
    [quoted image]

    Ah yes you are correct indeed, my understanding was incorrect.

    #412 1 year ago
    Quoted from mbwalker:

    I took a closer look. Looks like the two current lines (fault and the current measurement) go to the microcontroller on the node board.
    I spotted another nFAULT line, so they must be all be tied together (i.e. any one fault can trip a fault). The other fault appears to be for the LEDs.
    [quoted image]

    Looking at the schematics, it's clear that in case a transistor is shorted, the board will get damaged. Anything outside will be SW controlled, meaning the uC will detect overcurrent through the sense IC, and will prevent any of the output to toggles

    I personally think that at least a fuse would have been an additional safety net.

    3 months later
    #460 10 months ago
    Quoted from fuzz:

    I currently have a bricked Spike 1 game that is only 8 years old that has a board issue with no replacement available.
    Stern indicated they were not prioritizing "older games" any longer
    would not tell me if one would ever be reproduced either

    It's a rather insane statement from Stern, knowing that the board are "locked" because of the specific bootloader (at least on Spike 2). Either they release information to allow third party vendors to step in and build board, either they support it themselves. Maybe once many owners with defective machines are starting to complain and collaborate to issue a class action, they will move in the right direction.

    In France we have a law that enforces that spare parts availability is legally mandatory for at least 5y after the LAST unit has been sold on the territory. Unfortunately, this means that their legal obligation ended in 2022 (since it's safe to assume they sold GB up to 2017). Unless some of the other "The Pin" (Spider Man The Pin for ex) pinball have been sold afterward

    #463 10 months ago
    Quoted from fuzz:

    exactly why im trying to get exposure on this and find others that have suffered this problem

    Maybe you did already, but if not : did you start a thread on Pinside, specifically requesting owner with defective Spike board and non available replacement to register ? And maybe start a public document listing the owner and their issue, with the date of the issue, and what was Stern response ?

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