Well sure yeah...there is that.

I looked at your collection. Stern's Spike system is a little different than what you may be used to. When I brought my Munsters LE home and saw that switch in a accessible difficult to access position my first response was WTF !??. I have worked around that problem, as have others.

Here is the inside of the backbox. There is more paperwork than machinery in here. It all plugs in with computer type cables and connectors. There is no MPU, no SDU, and no LDA and no multitude of connector pins to fuck with. I had to remove my back box for transport. It involved unplugging 6 computer style cables, 2 of which were hidden under a metal shield that was attached with 2 nuts.

IMG_1215 (resized).JPG

I don't know what all this board does but it does have a USB connector that is used for updating the software.

IMG_1221 (resized).JPG

I don't know what this box does, either.

IMG_1220 (resized).JPG

This box is the power supply. There is only one fuse in this pin and you are looking at it. On the bottom of this box is the on/off switch. When I saw this I understood what Stern was doing and while I would like to have a switch in the usual place on the cab floor, it is not that big of deal.

I said this box is the power supply. There is no transformer as we all know it/them. The only thing inside my cabinet are a nice sized, great sounding speaker and a coin box.

IMG_1216 (resized).JPG

People are saying Stern is building cheap machines. Maybe 2-3-4 years ago but I can't speak to that. My Munsters does not feel cheap.

Let's look at where Stern is cost cutting/ saving money.

With the switch on the power supply box, all Stern had to do was rout one hole in the bottom of the back box for the rocker switch. The cost savings?

No hole had to be measured and drilled in the bottom of the cab.

No wire had to be harnessed up and run from the switch to the cab floor. There would be at least two wires at least 6 feet long that did not have to be bought and inventoried. Running wiring from the back box to the cab requires a connector and connector pins and someone to install the pins. A separate switch would have to be purchased and inventoried.
===============

Next up is the new style of lockdown bar and receiver. The lockdown bar is, for the most part, unchanged. But the receiver has been replaced with two lockdown clamps which work quite well. A receiver, anyway you cut it, is an expensive item. There are some moving parts and each of those parts need to be purchased and inventoried.

I worked factory assembly production for a lot of years. Trust me, if something has to be assembled, someone is always going to scrap something. A lockdown receiver is one of those items that could have a costly scrap rate. Solution: Replace the receiver with 2 simple, inexpensive clamps.
=====================

The lights in the back box are located on that circuit board. On each side of the board are 4 surface mount LEDs. So, 4 bright LEDs are all it takes to light up the back box.

IMG_1221 (resized).JPG

All of the LEDs under the play field are multi-color surface mount LEDS on wafer boards. So, no more #44 lamp sockets to have to screw on to the play field that need to be soldered to the braided wire. You don't need the braided wire anymore, either. So, no more #44 sockets to purchase and inventory. And tubs and tubs of #44/#47 bulbs, and tubs and tubs of LED bulbs do not have to purchased and inventoried.

And instead of some half-assed toolbox lid clamp to hold the back box in to position while you try to fish some bolts inside the back box to lock it to the cab, there are now two heavy duty steel bars located on the bottom of the back box. All you do is rotate the back box into position and the 2 steel bars set down inside the cab and you lock them in with 2 bolts; There is no more fishing around inside the back box trying to get 2 or 4 hold down bolts installed.

This is all I can think of for the moment, but there is a whole lot more going on here than just relocating the power button to the bottom of the back box.

Yeah, why doesn't the knight move? Heck, in reaction to certain events the knight ought to step out of the trench and run around the playfield blocking your shots and doing his best to kick the ball down the center or into the outlanes. And whenever he loses track of where he's standing for a second, you can flip him onto the upper playfield and release all the balls in the catapult on top of him; Pro players get to scramble his brains when he lands in the pops.

Exactly. You get it, why can't some of these other fanboys? Anyway, I would settle for an extra solenoid or servo at this point.

As far as the power button in the back is concerned, all I use is a 30$ WiFi smart strip and an app on my phone to turn things on or off. Hell hook it up to an echo dot and turn it on by voice command.

Just keep seeing you post the same complaint thread after thread. A toy doesn't need to be "bashed" to be good. Is Wolverine a better toy because he twists and you can hit him? Is the saucer from AFM lame because there is a target bank in front, and then only targets underneath it? Or for that matter the martians? ONLY TARGETS.

I don’t post that often. I must have an admirer.
True, not every toy needs to be a bash toy. But I can look at most features in a machine and see their shortcomings. Those shortcomings are more glaring when it’s the only feature in the whole damn game.

I don't think wolverine moves. I believe he is strictly a bash toy.

The fact is that Stern is number 1. That means everyone is hunting for them Stern dollars, trying to take as many of those Stern dollars for themselves. Stern should be doubling down on R&D, don’t let the other guys catch up, cuz if they do, then your in for trouble. Customers will always look for the next hot thing, and they’re beginning to find that in other places then Stern.

Every industry leader has to work hard to stay there, or they will be over taken by another company that provides a better service. IMHO Stern has their work cut out for them, maybe not today, but the competition is coming up quick. There might not be ONE competitor yet, but the market is becoming more saturated and Stern will continually have a more difficult time holding onto those Stern dollars.

Yeah and wheres that exactly?

Some people would say they have been playing the long game ... how many years have they been in business?
I agree some of their new machines look bare, but it would not take much with their current resources to up their game if they feel they need to.
IMDN is one of the best machines I have played in recent times and it basically has 0 toys and if full of flat plastics.

Competition is always good for the consumer.
I hope AP continues to produce fun machines while at the same time upping their video/artwork packages.
Suncoast looks off to a great start, one of the best looking pins I have seen since ghostbusters - Just hope it plays well
DeepRoot - best of luck. I have high hopes but who knows if they will come through
JJP - making great games since day 1 - just seems to take them forever
Spooky - every new release seems to be getting better and better

If these companies can chisel some market share from Stern, maybe it will push them to adjust and innovate.
Stern has the talent, manufacturing and financial capacity to really create any quality of machine they want - they just have to want
And if they want to, it would not take long at all for them to pivot.

Fckn love pinball!!!! Great time to be in this hobby. I hope all these companies succeed and the hobby continues to grow.

People use this in an argument which I'm not really understanding why.

Stern went out of business once, Williams was number one and got out after decades of being in business, Gottlieb was number one for decades and closed doors.

"Stern is doing great, they have been in business x number of years" it isn't a great argument.

I'm not wishing ill on Stern. They have the number one spot for the moment and one hopes they improve on their product to stay there.

I know this sounds strange especially on this site but isn't that a good thing? I wouldn't want every game to be a loaded mess of toys and crap. Geez thank sweet innocent baby Jesus for BK3 and Tron and IM I mean I need both full and deep and simple and fast. Just like with women.

What exactly do they need to improve? Just asking. Am I the only happy with Stern pins? Jesus TWD, BK3, DP, IrMd man the list is long of great games. What is the deal with you guys and this constant distain for Sterns current model. I just don't get it.

Their imaginations.

Why do people always say this, like it's a 1960s social study class about the evils of communism?

Before "competition" Stern NIB games were about $3700 delivered. The single most made complaint in pinball is that prices are too high. Every time we get a new pinball company prices go up. Thanks competition!

Code for one; unconscionable that you sell a pin and it isn't fully functional right out of the box.

Ghostbusters STILL isn't correct, when did it come out? People state BM66 was a train wreck out of the box and only now starting to shine, ditto for Munsters.

Node boards failures seems also to be a concern.

Just for the code issue alone I will not buy a new Stern, mentioned it earlier in the thread you are better off waiting a few years once it is resolved if ever for your title of choice. I will not support a company with my dollars who releases unfinished product.

So, you don't buy NiB pins then. Has any company released this unicorn you speak of?

He must be an EM collector.

Back in the EM days, nobody was UNCONSCIONABLE enough to release an incomplete game!

Just so you all know here's the list of things that UNCONSCIONABLE:

Murder
Perpetuating a Ponzi Scheme
Stealing from orphans
Releasing a pinball machine and then updating the code later

1) Some titles have fewer issues than others.

2) I would feel more comfortable buying a NIB pin from other companies than Stern on the code issue. Why do people think it is acceptable to spend $7500-$10,000 on a pin and it does not have all the features as promised?

Would you buy a new car only to find out after the radio and heater don't work, but might after a code update to the body control module? Just wait 24 months?

You asked my opinion, you got it. Of course now I get attacked for bringing up a perfectly valid reason for not jumping on the new Stern pin bandwagon. whatever.

That's not what you stated in your post. This is what you said:

I asked, what company provides that?

I think you can still get a Stern Star Trek NiB or Iron Maiden, both with completed code.

I don't believe that is acceptable.

Purpose of the thread is to discuss Stern's shortcomings, not to get into a fanboi pissing contest.

Just doing a board search for "code" and the bulk of Stern complaints are on that subject which is the basis of my opinion.

Bash toy complaints are subjective

So no problem right? Unless you are interested in a Ghostbusters of course. Which I am. Then you are ass out. Why should I buy a Deadpool then? Same company churning the product out. Poor service IMHO.

Than we are in agreement.

Where does Stern promise features? I'm serious. I know some things are said by Stern employees, things listed on a flyer, or an insert but not sure those are "promises". I don't recall ever seeing a list of rules from Stern or any idea of what is to come in any update. Stern always delivers a "working" pinball machine. It flips, lights up, and does all the things a pinball machine should do. I don't know how you are comparing that to a radio that stops working in a car. If a new Stern breaks down and fails to boot, Stern always takes care of that just a like a manufacturer with a new car under warranty. Code is different per every machine and only Stern determines when that code is done. Stern may decide one game will not have a wizard mode or decide it's not worth their resources to fix certain bugs. As the consumer, you have to make a choice on whether the product Stern is selling is right for you when it comes to features, code, quality, and price. You take a risk buying a game at 0.50 code just like you would buying a video game at an early build status. I don't see why people have to buy the first game off the line and not wait a few months to see how things develop.

Ghostbusters 1.13 code problems, well past 0.50 release.

You asked about promises? Right there on Stern's site.

https://sternpinball.com/2019/06/04/stern-of-the-union-address-june-2019/

"Ghostbusters code update remains in our schedule."

Game has been out since March of 2016. 1.13 is the last release.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/ghostbusters-v113-bugs-and-features

BUGS REMAINING:
-----------------------------------------
- Disabling slimer motor on an LE / Premium caused 100% reset when reaching the Slimer phase of "He Slimed Me"
- Puts up a "FREE PLAY/PRESS START" attract mode screen in the middle of some modes for a few seconds. USUALLY it's in the Extra Ball animation, but has happened elsewhere. [PREMIUM]
- [Prem/LE] If you lock two balls, the game ends and you start the next game without letting it clear the subway, when you lock the next balls in the NEW game, it will not pause for the lock animation. Ball goes in, lock animation starts, ball is ejected while lock animation is still playing. It's quite surprising the first time it happens.
- Terror Dog Champion will award and let you enter initials for scores greater than your main score. For example, I had a 50 million game, and it had me put my initials in as the 158 million Terror Dog Champion. The TDC exceeded my full game score by 108 million.
- Gozer Champion will award and let you enter initials for scores greater than your main score also. Very broken.
- I haven't been able to nail this down to reproduce it every time, but on the GB Premium, OCCASIONALLY when you finish a game, the first time through the attract mode, the trivia screen will simply say INVALID, centered on the otherwise blank screen. [PREMIUM]
- Librarian Insert still unused [PREMIUM]
- Proton Pack stand-up target lights partially or completely do not participate in attract mode lightshow. Which lights do/don't seem to be random.[PREMIUM]
- In a multiplayer game, at the end of the ball, it skips the screen that shows what the player's score would have been after bonuses and skips right to the next player.
- Storage Multi-ball music priority below mode music. Should be above.
- Restart bug remaining, possibly linked to Special award. [PREMIUM]
- Mass Hysteria started at the same time as Don't Cross the Streams is activated and game does not pause multiball start while video mode is playing. MH gets all the balls out on the playfield as player is stuck in video mode. Balls drain. When video mode ends, tallies up bonuses for that ball and ends that turn.
- Starting with 1.13, post on left orbit pops up to hold ball even if only the first switch is hit on the opposite Right orbit. Before, it waited until the ball went around the orbit to pop up and hold the ball, which seemed to be better behavior. [PREMIUM]
- Spook Central mode sometimes will not end, even after all shots are made. Music for it continues underneath other modes.
- Was able to start WE GOT ONE mode while SPOOK CENTRAL was half finished and not timed-out. When WE GOT ONE completed, SPOOK CENTRAL came back exactly where it was interrupted. For more detail see post #113 and #138. For how to reproduce this bug consistently, see post #235 on this thread.
- Mass Hysteria stacked with WRTBY. Phase 2 of WRTBY is to lock a ball in the right scoop and left hole to start Loopin' Supers. He locked the ball in the right scoop and drained everything else when Mass Hysteria flippers flipped. At this point , the game was unable locate the locked ball. It never ball searches, even if it goes to "Missing Pinballs". Even if you tilt, it won't let the locked ball go and thus will never serve another ball. Basically you are permanently stuck in wizard mode due to the software's inability to release the lock and presumably recognize that multi-ball had ended. A hard reset was required to kick the ball out. [PRO]
- If you tilt and you start another game while the bob is still swinging enough to make contact with the ring, ball 1 of the new game will instantly tilt (no warnings).
- When restarting a new game from a non finished one (a bad 1st ball), left "scoleri" target was UP, these targets remain UP, and even better, when hitting that single target, the code gave a "super jackpot" as i've hit the 2 brothers. Clearly game variables are not being fully re-initialized at restart.
- Soft plunge to play sound effect then hard plunge to activate orbit rollover. It will award skill shot every time.
- (Pro) Ball Search does not raise slimer to release trapped ball. Eventually just ends the ball and THEN slimer moves.
- (Pro) While in Multiball, shoots in the Subway(right saucer) triggers ballsave but it shouldn't(Shoot-Again starts flashing). Center drains won't be saved(like it should be) but outlane drains will serve a new ball. This bug does occur in every Multiball. I guess(Feature Adjustment #14) "Subway Ball Save Time" should only be available during Mainplay and scenes.
- (Pro) Captive Ball Bank. Sometimes the reset timer is not held properly. For instance while starting Storage Facility Multiball you can hear the timer running out "beep" and all the balls will be rejected. This does also happen in the Extra-Ball animation, starting Scenes and some more animations.
- (Pro) If Scenes and Tobins Spirit Guide are lit at the same time. Sometimes the Scene starts before TSG is awarded. The Scene music starts for 2-3 seconds before finally starting TSG after collecting the awards scene music starts again. Shouldn't TSG have priority above Scenes?
- (Pro) Grace Periods. There are actually a few bugs related to grace period fails. For instance, if a mode timed out without completing it and draining the ball while in grace period. The scene is not awarded correctly. Sometimes you'll have to re lite scenes in order to play it again.(Out timed scenes should be awarded, even if not 100% finished)
Another instance if "Back of Man!" or "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" timed out without completing it and shooting the ball up the main ramp while in grace period(just before Mode total and WKWS is lite message is displayed) both WKWS and one of the Scenes of the Ramp(We Got One, He Slimed me, The Ballroom) start at the same time. However this won't happen all the time. I guess it does only occur if you would be able to start another scene without doing Slimer first.
- PKE Mode weirdness under certain circumstances - See post 253 in this thread for a video link.

NOT A BUG, BUT NEEDS ATTENTION:
-----------------------------------------
- Software compensation needs to be added if the Ecto Goggles optos are broken on a Prem/LE. If the tech message recognizes there's a problem then the rollover in the back of that lane should count as an ecto hit. Currently if your EG's break, your players are SoL until you get it fixed.
- Software compensation needs to be added if the shooter lane switch is broken so it doesn't start the dog mode as soon as the ball is launched. If the shooter lane switch is broken it should ignore the switch at the top right of the playfield the FIRST time to get the ball in play.[PREMIUM]
- Bring back Magna Sling adjustment from 1.05 [PREMIUM]
- Let the Storage trap animation be SKIPPABLE WITH BOTH FLIPPER buttons! [PREMIUM]
- Mass hysteria flipper warning audio WAY too low. Callout, much louder effect, or special shaking cue rather than the whoosh would be better. [PREMIUM]
- Insert LEDs are too bright. Needs adjustment like Metallica to turn them down. [PREMIUM]
- Allow Trough kickout power to go even lower. At lowest setting ball kickout is still too hard. [PREMIUM]
- Auto launch power adjustment would be nice. [PREMIUM]
- Innermost lanes at slingshots still unused & serve no purpose, could be used to activate (after X hits) a "save ball" on the outlanes (as on ST pro), red inserts in the outlanes could than serve to show the saver is activated, only 1 side at the time, moving with slingshots [PREMIUM]
- Terror dog mini mode: why is this completed if you shoot for the right ramp? Yes, the right single Terror dog target is hard to aim/hit, but its the part of the game, its pinball, and while its hard to get, may be gave more points on just that target. Maybe 1/4 score for ramp, or full score for terror dog target? [PREMIUM]
- GHOST CHAMPION score would be a nice competitive score category to add. [PREMIUM/PRO]
- (Pro) Slimer sometimes does stupid things. This might be on purpose but im not sure. If I have Slimer mode going on in order to light scenes. He is normaly jumping up and down slightly(on the Pro) like he should be. But sometimes he moves a bit up(to the middle or upper position) and keeps jumping there for a short amount of time. The ball can't hit him in this position. I haven't found a way to recreate it. I checked the switches, they are working fine... My original Playfield and my new(non-ghosting) Playfield both had the same issue, so it must be related to the Software.

un·con·scion·a·ble

ADJECTIVE

* not right or reasonable.

* unreasonably excessive.

3+ years after taking your money is unconscionable.

Well wait a year or 2 then buy a nice used example. I was never part of the GB's issue nor the BM66 but If I had bought them I would have enjoyed what code there was and sold them probably before complete, just don't care enough about a game to worry about a game, its a game. Now I get it how for many its infuriating but we all know the answer, don't buy newly released Sterns and wait. Problem solved, ur welcome.

Ah there it is. Its always amazing that some of you guys will codemn a manufacturer over one thing. Now I know ur gonna list every game that took a while for complete code but this is the killer, I know it. Thats like me saying I'll never buy JJP because their other releases have had shit themes. If JJP makes a Blade Runner or Mad Max pin, I'm in. Now Mr.Donovan I don't like using peoples ratings as a guide but I had to look and with Williams Olympic Hockey being #1 it speaks volumes sir to whom we are dealing with. Good day to u, I said good day.

What does this wall of text have to do with Stern?

Shoot the messenger all you like doesn't change pins having unfinished features and bugs as shipped and after being in the field for years.

A hobby should give you pleasure, not outrage. I focus on the fun stuff.

Saying there is an update in their schedule is not a list of promises. They might do an update tomorrow where only change is something insignificant like fixing a typo in one random animation. They didn't steal your money. You gave it to them in exchange for a product. If you were not happy with that product at the time of purchase, I don't know what to tell you. If code is not where you want it to be and causing you stress, I recommend selling the game and get something else that works for you. I had huge interest in GB when it first came out but lost all interest after playing it a number of times. Bought a MET instead and very happy with it.

We have a difference of opinion, its an unfinished product.. and Stern has a history of shipping unfinished products and fixing after.

Sometimes.

Thank you for your time, said my piece. It baffles me that people are good with this practice or at least.. flexible about it.

Tell me how they are doing so with Willy Wonka?
They seemed to be doing the same with JJPOTC instead it almost took a year before anybody received a single (and even simplified) game!

Once they start shipping WW I believe it, not sooner.

There is no reason to get so upset at everyone that has even the slightest criticism of Stern. Did you forget the title of this thread? It's a good thing Canada has Universal Healthcare. You're going to need it when you have that stroke because someone bashed Stern one too many times. And when I say bash Stern, I don't mean the crappy standup target in front of them.

I get why Levi NOW defends Stern over every single negative post against them, but why do you feel the need? Are you trying to get Stern to sponsor your pinball tournament too? It is my understanding that in order to get Sterns sponsorship, you have to defend them against any and all criticism. God forbid if you ever disparage one of their games. Gomez will take a baseball bat to your car.

Let's at least get the facts straight. Stern (as it exists today) is essentially the same company that Data East PINBALL was back in the 80's.

On Stern's site...

Screen Shot 2019-06-12 at 9.43.38 AM (resized).png

They have made some great games and changed the industry in the early 2000's, implementing some great technical accomplishments (and cost cutting) when NO ONE THOUGHT PINBALL WOULD SURVIVE.

I'm not justifying people overreacting, just trying to show why some people feel so strongly about these things.

IMHO, Stern was great at paying attention to the pinball things that mattered. They may have lost focus a bit recently, but with games like Iron Maiden and Metallica, I see a bright future for them. They have made a LOT OF MISTAKES but every business makes them. Learning from them is what separates the survivors.

What baffles me is the people that buy games with code they are not happy with or buy on theme only. As you said, Stern has a history that is widely known and that history should be part of your buying decision. To me, that's a lot of money to be risking on Stern doing something they don't have a good history of doing. I agree that Stern should deliver on code up to a point but I don't see their obligation to be fixing bugs and adding features for dozens of games for all eternity. At some point they are just going to call a game done and move on like it or not.

To follow on what @snyper2099 said, I am still frankly amazed that a third game in the Black Knight series ever came into being after a 30-year intermission - the last 20 years of which elapsing since WMS stopped making pinballs - along with the less-than-stellar life support prognosis for pinball still being around now back then. I really liked the first two, but I simply "knew" back in 1999 that BK2000 was now relegated to being the only BK sibling. Never thought about it after that.

Then about a year ago the whispers began. Then a few months ago they started getting louder. And louder. Then March 26, 2019 arrived. What I thought was impossible had actually just happened. Not only had pinball had survived, it had been thriving. The third BK game was real. And the designer of that first couple was in charge of this one too.

So even though the grinch thought he had stolen pinball from our lives and our souls and set dark times upon us once more, pinball still came roaring back. For Stern to do BKSOR bodes well too - especially given their penchant for movie, TV, music, etc. licenses.

I'm curious to see how Cosmic Carnival from Suncoast gets received too. But I'm thrilled to see what I hope is just the beginning of a resurgence in non-licensed/original pinball titles (BKSOR counts as it's not one of those TV/movie/music licenses even though rights had to be secured to do a third one.) And I hope more pinball design teams will get the opportunity every once in awhile to take a break from the licensed world to flex their creative muscles and design something completely original - and that those designs are well received alongside the licensed games and help show the wide range of what pinball has to offer players of all ages.

What? I'm 44 and retired, spent my morning walking in the park that backs my house feeding Geese with the Sun on my face, Known to many as the happiest man alive there is zero stress in my life sir and thats why I'm here to create some for u PinDicks who take this game/toy way too seriously. Good Times. Fuck Stern, if they go under tomorow I will move on in a week. I love playing pinball but its just a hobby. U see what happens when u make stupid comments not knowing who u are dealing with. Good day to u Sir, I said good day.

That's awesome. You have obviously made better work and/or financial decisions than I have.

Never experience again. Had to give that up when I got married and had a kid. Although I never got into the really bad chemicals admittedly. Can't say I was never curious though.

So it seems we're in agreement here. Like me, I'm going to assume that the context of what you post is sometimes misinterpreted by some as more hostile than how it was meant to come across.

Well, I would be a little more disappointed than that because I'm looking forward to more great games like Tron, Metallica, TWD premium, etc.

No, what happens?

That's the one thing aboot you Canadians, so cordial and polite.
And a good day to you to sir.

Let’s remember that Stern has by far the best manufacturing setup of all the pin companies. Meaning they probably have the best ability/facilities to produce machines with quality and consistency. That said do they choose to utilize this advantage to its fullest? Probably not but it’s there if they need it to compete and survive long term. Stern could always bring their prices up to JJP and beat them at quality and QC because I believe they have a better overall manufacturing setup. And if equal money is spent building a game I like Sterns overall business setup to succeed. If that makes sense. So I like Sterns chances long term even if I am not that impressed with what their quality is currently.

Nothing.

You are easy to please. That makes you lucky man, if not a wealthy one

Its easier when ur not married with kids. I do have to do some work but its not much just some banking and light management in which ur the boss so its fun.

True dat. I never wanted kids, but I got talked into it by my wife. Needless to say, that my biological weaknesses got the better of me, and I can't imagine life differently. The little guy shares my interests. He loves basketball, pinball and convertible mustangs.

38E34250-8687-4DF6-9C17-6CBBAC0D758B (resized).jpeg

They expanded their plant in York, PA and built other plants around the globe. The US market has shrunk but I don't believe it is half what it one was. There was just another article out about KTM selling more motorcycles but HD's revenue dominated that of KTM.

Stern is the LONG game. Period

I do like JJP games but Stern is what it is for a reason. For home... I may be a JJP believer but for location... It is Stern.

They didn't really expand the plant in York at the end of it all. They built a new plant next to the old one to build the V-Rod back in the early 2000's, then used that as a bargaining chip against the plant in KC. Then they tore the old York plant down and shipped jobs to KC to beat down the union in PA. Now they beat down the union at the KC plant and added a bunch more "casuals" to York.