(Topic ID: 264686)

Stern SAM battery goes dead

By FiatsRUs

4 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 47 posts
  • 11 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by FiatsRUs
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

Family Guy battery issue (resized).JPG

You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider fiatsrus.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

#1 4 years ago

I purchased a HUO Family Guy last October and was a little surprised that the 2430 backup battery on the MPU was dead. I replaced it and everything was good until yesterday (about 5 months after the replacement), when all settings were lost as the battery was once again drained (.35 volts). Other than the dead battery, the pin works great with no issues. I checked the blocking diode at D24 and it is functioning properly.

Since NVRAM does not appear to be a reasonable option for this pin, would it work for me to use either a rechargeable battery or a super capacitor (1.5F, 5V) instead of the coin battery? I realize that I would need to jumper the blocking diode at D24, but is there any other reason that either of those wouldn't work?

#4 4 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

I would replace the battery again. There are a lot of crap batteries out there these days.

I put in an Energizer battery when I got the pin, but that is probably a good idea to see if it happens again. Three times would strongly suggest something is wrong. I did check Pinwiki and there was an entry there about "Battery draining quickly" and it was due to a bad clock IC at U43. I input some time settings and I don't have the same symptoms that they reported with their bad clock.

From Pinwiki:

7.3 Battery draining quickly

A SAM CPU board was rapidly draining the battery when the game was powered off. Power was getting from the battery to the clock at U43 and the RAM at U11. In other words, the components on the way to the clock and RAM were good (R211, D24, R212) and the diode at D25 was also good. However, when setting the time under the Utilities menu, gibberish would be output when the last entry was accepted. This indicated a problem with the clock IC at U43. The clock is a SOIC-8 150 mil package. A replacement is DS1302Z+ found at mouser.com. After replacing the clock IC the game kept correct time when powered on and off, and the battery no longer drained quickly.

#5 4 years ago
Quoted from RWH:

Something down stream of the battery pulling it down? I've no idea how you'd check that without testing all the components though.

There really isn't that much downstream besides the clock at U43 and the memory at U11. The pin works and plays fine, except for the dead battery. Also, the "modern" boards have surface mount components. A lot tougher for a hack like me to test and work on them.

#7 4 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Rob Anthony talked about NVRAM for SAM CPU boards in another thread. These are surface mount parts and he will only install at his shop due to the equipment he uses, so you would have to ship the board to him if you want to go that route.

I put another button battery in to see if it also dies in a relatively short time. If so, I'll go the super cap route since my machines get turned on and played on a fairly regular basis.

4 months later
#9 3 years ago

My Family Guy battery is dead again. It appears that 4-5 months is the life span. I am thinking about putting in a remote battery holder with three AA batteries. Would that present any issue to have 4.5 volts instead of the 3.5 volts with the button battery?

Could I jumper the blocking diode at D24 and put in a rechargeable battery or a super capacitor? The game gets played at least monthly in the summer and much more often in the winter.

I have to believe the memory get 5 volts when the pin is turned on.

#13 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Are you losing the high scores or only the date/time?
I removed my coin cell battery out of my Stern POTC since it was dead anyway and it still remembers my settings and high scores, just not the date/time. Been like that for 2 months so I have no plans to install another battery.

Losing all of the settings.

#14 3 years ago
Quoted from Jeffswack:

I believe NVRam is a super easy swap on these boards

I have checked all of the usual suppliers and NVRam is not available for these.

#15 3 years ago

Does anyone know if there is any issue with the super cap or rechargeable options?

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from RC_like_the_cola:

What voltage is your battery reading? It should only need 3 volts to keep the settings. Maybe the ram itself is bad, draining the battery prematurely. Or something else in that circuit downstream.

.12 volts. Completely dead. The only downstream components are the RAM (U11), the clock (U43) and an oscillator (Y2). There are also some diodes and a resistor that all test good.

The machine works fine with no issues other than the dead battery. I am going to try making an adapter to plug a super cap into the battery holder and then putting a jumper on D24 so the cap charges when the game is turned on.

Family Guy battery issue (resized).JPGFamily Guy battery issue (resized).JPG

#22 3 years ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

Bad D25? If he's shorted then the battery will see just under a 220 ohm load. Pretty hefty load for a coin battery.

I tested D24, D25 and D26. D24 and D26 read .525 (or so) and D25 read .425 (or so). They are obviously in-circuit so I figured that was OK. Not true? Should I just replace D25 and see what happens?

#24 3 years ago

No voltage at the non-banded side of D25. The battery reads 2.95 vdc and the banded side of D25 is 2.45 vdc, as is the banded side of D24. I checked the non-banded side of D28 and it was just over 1 vdc. Is that because of the super cap at C255?

#26 3 years ago

Drop is only 2.95 vdc to 2.94 vdc. I metered it with no battery in at just under 100 ohms.

#27 3 years ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

Next guess - something on board is drawing too much current. Bad RAM or the power control circuit within the DS1310.
Can you measure a voltage drop across R211 when the power is turned off?

Do you mean the DS1302 at U43? Here is an entry from Pinwiki for the SAM system:

7.3 Battery draining quickly
A SAM CPU board was rapidly draining the battery when the game was powered off. Power was getting from the battery to the clock at U43 and the RAM at U11. In other words, the components on the way to the clock and RAM were good (R211, D24, R212) and the diode at D25 was also good. However, when setting the time under the Utilities menu, gibberish would be output when the last entry was accepted. This indicated a problem with the clock IC at U43. The clock is a SOIC-8 150 mil package. A replacement is DS1302Z+ found at mouser.com. After replacing the clock IC the game kept correct time when powered on and off, and the battery no longer drained quickly.

I am able to reset the time and date with no hiccups.

#30 3 years ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

Need to measure this one directly across the resistor. Red lead on one end of resistor, black lead end on other end of resistor. Just like you are measuring the resistance but with meter in voltage range.

9.8 mV

#32 3 years ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

OK -- you have a 100 ohm resistor with 0.0098V across it. This says you have a 0.0098/100 = 0.000098 amp load or 98uA. This is more than 10x what I expected but still not huge (I expect 6uA maximum based on data sheets).
The 24mm coin batteries are rated at 280mAh to 320mAh depending on brand.
280mAh / 0.098mA = 2448 hours = 102 days or just under 3 months. Not very good.
320mAh / 0.098mA = 3265 hours = 136 days or about 4.5 months. Better but still not very good.
The two devices share the same power source so not easy to narrow down which part is drawing excessive current. If the devices were socketed - you could pull them one at a time to see which one is the culprit. But... since these are SMT parts, that isn't really possible. I'm leaning towards the DS1302 - I would try separating pin 8 of the DS1302 from the battery power to see what the current load drops to.

Wow! At this point I think that I will replace the DS1302 and see what happens. Hopefully that is the issue. I will keep you informed.

Thanks a ton for the help. BTW Ed, I am a big fan and order from you regularly (mostly in the winter!). You are a true asset to the pinball community.

#34 3 years ago

Replaced the DS1302 at U43. My first time removing a surface mount component and it wasn't too difficult (I used low temperature solder to remove it and copper braid to clean the pads). Everything is reset and working fine. I have measured the battery voltage and will check it again in a week to see if it is holding steady.

#39 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

You could had installed NVRAM since you had the old one off.

Is surface mount NVRAM available for this? If I still have an issue with the battery draining (after replacing the DS1302) my next move is to replace the RAM. I might as well do NVRAM if it is available.

1 week later
#42 3 years ago

I checked the voltage today and it is holding steady at just over 3 vdc. The battery is a 2032 and was put in before replacing the DS1302 and it drained quickly to 3vdc.

I will continue to check the battery but early indications are that the problem was a bad DS1302. Once that is confirmed over the next couple of months, I will put a larger 2430 in and hopefully not have to deal with batteries again for several years.

#43 3 years ago

I am working on the premise that my battery draining issue is resolved (I will continue to monitor this). My goal is to get rid of batteries that require replacement on all of my pins

That being the goal, is there a rechargeable option for the SAM system? It seems that installing a rechargeable battery with 3.5 vdc and putting a jumper on the blocking diode would do the trick. Not true? Bad idea? Has anyone tried this?

#46 3 years ago
Quoted from stangbat:

The SAM system debuted in 2006 with WPT, POTC was next. I've owned two POTC and worked on several. 14 years later and I've never had to replace a battery on any SAM game. Respectfully, I'm suggesting that you are trying to come up with a complicated solution for a problem that really doesn't exist. The CR2430 cells on the SAM MPU last a crazy long time, and when they do die they won't damage the board or cause any harm. I'd concentrate on games that have alkaline cells and not worry about SAM or any other games that use lithium coin cells for memory back up.
Edit to add, I guess I have replaced one battery on a Stern SAM MPU. I'm the guy that wrote the content on Pinwiki about the DS1302 being bad. So I replaced that battery that was on a Spiderman.

Thanks. I'll stick with the 2430. Also, thanks for the Pinwiki entry. That got me headed in the right direction (I hope!).

1 week later
#47 3 years ago

I checked the voltage once again and it has not moved at all. I am going to declare victory and blame the battery draining issue on a bad clock at U43 (DS1302). I will replace the 2032 cell that is currently in place with the appropriate CR2430.

Thanks to everyone for their input and help in resolving the issue.

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
$ 76.00
Lighting - Backbox
Arcade Upkeep
 
From: $ 10.00
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
arcade-cabinets.com
 
From: $ 209.00
5,500 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Saugerties, NY
$ 17.00
Cabinet - Decals
Nordic Pinball Supply
 
From: $ 159.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Sparky Pinball
 
From: $ 40.00
Lighting - Interactive
Professor Pinball
 
From: $ 99.99
Cabinet - Other
Lighted Pinball Mods
 
$ 79.99
Cabinet - Armor And Blades
PinGraffix Pinside Shop
 
6,000
Machine - For Sale
Commack, NY
From: $ 33.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Rocket City Pinball
 
5,200 (Firm)
Machine - For Sale
Walton, KY
$ 99.00
Boards
PinballReplacementParts
 

You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider fiatsrus.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-sam-battery-goes-dead?tu=fiatsrus and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.