Pushing me out of the hobby?

Definitely not.

Influencing my buying habits?

That is very likely. I have varied interests in pinball including older games. For example, my latest game is a 1971 Gottlieb Astro.

We all have our own definitions of value. I don’t have FOMO over hobbies. Occasionally, I break from my conservative buying principle and buy something overpriced. I usually realize later I could have waited and been happy or maybe even even passed all together. I’m very interested in RUSH, but I have no problem waiting if the price doesn’t seem worth it. I passed on Led Zeppelin, that’s my all time total dream theme by my all time favorite designer and pinball person in general. It happens. No big deal.

Life is to short to worry about it.

I'd respectfully disagree with you.

I was enjoying bringing in a new game every few months, and would finance these new titles by selling something in my current collection.

But with the price hike, I've lost my appetite for it. I say "barely", because I've gone from wanting to try out multiple titles each year, to saying I'm just going to wait for the next Elwin game.

So, if they're getting 1/3 of the money from me than they got from me in the past, it's still a huge difference. At current LE prices, it's $15K+ versus $45K+ (CAD).

Die heard collector's and newbies with lots of cash to spend will definitely help keep sales moving, but from what I'm hearing, there are a lot of people like me that are changing their spending habits, or are completely putting the kibosh on this hobby.

I personally think Stern got greedy. They can say all day that the cost of parts went up, but their margins were stupid prior to this, and are even more absurd now.

But we're to blame to. We were chomping at the bit for anything and everything these companies put out (I mean, if you put your money in Deeproot, you clearly have a problem with pinball) and they say that they had left money on the table. Any of us here, running a business like this, would have done the same. Gary Stern and crew are now evil, they're opportunistic.

But for me, and only me, they've lost a lot of my money and my interest.

You're not "wrong", but I have heard this refrain from collectors when they started raising the prices of what would now be considered a premium from what ~$3500 a decade or so ago? And it really hasn't seemed to stunt their bottom line. One person says Stern has gone too far, another 2 new buyers happily take their place. And in 2-3 years when those buyers run out of room, funds, or are tired of each game getting more expensive, the cycle repeats...

Common sense would indicate that it can't continue forever, but common sense and I parted ways the first time I bought a NIB pinball machine.

At 26, I was just starting out my career...slave wages, paying off student loans and just barely paying rent...I had a dream since I was 7 to buy a pin one day...WOZ got my interest up but even then it was way way out of reach. Not until 2019 at the age of 46 did I even consider buying a pin and this was AFTER I built our home, paid off all the student loan debt and had been with my company now for over 25 years. Now with my career established, 2 kids in college and one one the way, with a sizeable retirement already saved up... the time is now appropriate.

You're seeing a generation of GenX and young Boomers with disposable income now through years and years of hard work and sacrifice. Don't lose the dream, but don't feel "gutted" either..go out to the arcades and stay in the hobby

The old cliche is true about good things and those who wait

My face when someone with EIGHT games in their collection already complains about being priced out

Stern might be pricing people out of Stern Option, those same people probably not JJP fans.

Think American Pinball should not be ignored as a Stern Pro replacement plan.
Hotwheels for the money really is a pretty damn good game in my opinion. If
American can follow up with something that is just as well coded and designed
I think Stern may of opened up a Market Opportunity.

I'm sure the people over at Spooky will take note to. Next year when they unveil what
they got under dev they should seriously consider making a game that can compete
with American for this spot. If they can create a game that is just as packed, solid as
Pro's of old.

Perhaps people just need to branch out.

Think there are plenty other options out there. Can't really say much about the new
era of Stern though as I probably won't be able to play Godzilla for awhile.
Full disclosure I ordered one.. Just giving me a little more motivation to clear out
games I don't really need.

Yup, but I'm not actually out of room. I could easily make room for 3 more and even several more after that, if I got rid of my pool table or gym!
Not happ'nin.

Why all of the bitching recently about price increases? Have any of you not seen component or commodity prices lately? EVERYTHING is getting more expensive, some at a much faster rate than others. I get not everyone in this hobby has piles of cash lying around, I sure don't, but on the other hand if you know what you want and are willing to have some patience all is far from lost.

One thing is for sure, bitching here isn't going to change anything. So long as people keep lining up for NIB games, those who make them are financially ignorant if they don't try to take advantage of that. This is a business people, not a charity.

I'm sure my comment will get downvoted simply because I'm not showing any sympathy for the bitching but I'd ask you this... If you could charge more for a product you make knowing people will pay it, wouldn't you?

Jeff

Waiting 40 years and counting....

Wish I got into the hobby earlier when pins were cheap but just didn't have much disposable income back then. I didn't make much money starting out, got married, bought a house, had kids, etc. Similar story.

Amazing you still can afford the hobby with two kids in college. I'll soon have three in college and just hoping I don't have to sell all my pins. If I do, I won't lose any sleep. These pins are just things and there are plenty more important things in life.

I looks at the cost of pins a little different than most. If I purchase a $6000 game then I have to get at the least 6000 plays to pay for purchase. What they sell for later is all profit in my eyes. If I play 2000 games over the time I own it then that adds $2000 more profit to game once it sells. I call it funds per play. I keep my games for a long time so I usually come out ahead even if they sell for a little less than what I paid for them. I don't like the new prices and have never bought a nib but my math works for me. I'm in it to enjoy it and don't want to feel like I'm throwing money away. Everybody enjoy

Oh please... Do you want some cheese with that whine? There, THAT was said to piss you off. You can bitch about this all you want but talk about things not being constructive... Guess what? Stern doesn't give two shits what you think about how they're pricing their machines.

Threads like this are a complete waste of time and energy and if that offends you then so be it.

Jeff

oh wow, did you just make him deactivate his account ????

Yikes... Well... Um... Oops...

Jeff

Took his brown paper bag and left!!

Holy shit!!!!!

Stern’s price increases claim another one!

RIP Jorant

Who wil we turn to for thought-provoking content now?

I think the 'NiB' craze is relatively new in this hobby (comparatively). This is what is starting to turn people sour. Between the seemingly endless increase in prices, the flippers grabbing up what they can, and the occasional scam and/or poor quality it all starts to add up in a negative way.

As has been mentioned though, you dont need to start with a NiB. I've owned machines since the 90's and I just bought my first NiB 2 years ago. Here's the kicker. I did this AFTER having paid off my mortgage, my vehicles, basically no debt other than monthly bills. Some of you in your 20's/30's...you're suffering from the 'gotta have everything now' syndrome due to the crazy increase of interest in pinball.

Even when I did that, I said never again because even if you love the game, the value isn't there. Of course, then I proceeded to buy 2 more hah. I get where if you are expected to pay 4k+ for a 20-30 year old game, that paying 6k for a brand new game may seem like it makes more sense. Especially since all the new games are actual licensed properties that are popular. The trick really is to plan to rotate them out if you plan to keep wanting everything that comes out. I've just not gotten tired of anything enough to bother.

When NIB goes up, used market follows. For me, it is NOT about getting NIB games. It is about $1500 DMD games in 2014 now being $3000+ (find me a JM, TS, DM, JD, JPDE, DH, TFTC below $3K), and sooner or later, even getting into the used market is quite a stretch.

In 2012, I bought:

JPDE ($1900)
TFTC ($1600)
JM ($1150)
and T3 (in 2014 for $2000)

...vs Stern Pro in 2012's market ($4400 vs $6750 combined). Or, you could see it as getting all four games for less than a NIB Stern in today's prices even ($6900 vs $6750).

Those games now would be more like:
JPDE ($4000)
TFTC ($4000)
JM ($3000)
T3 ($3500)

much more than a single Stern Pro ($6900 vs $14.5K combined).

Things have GREATLY changed since 2012. When NIB goes up, the used market follows. I get it: supply and demand, more people in the hobby, etc...but there's no doubt the ripple effect is there.

Yup!
I just payed $4400.00 USD for a Bram Stoker's. That's what a decent one is going for now! And this ain't no collectors quality, just one that doesn't have a planked, shit playfield and has a decent cab and works correctly. It needed several basic repairs. Also, 3 new plastics and all the red in the decals repainted. Lots of work!

Wow, wonder what one with ColorDMD and PinSound with Hazzard mix goes for....

Not that I plan to sell mine. If I did, it is gonna hurt, and it wont be me.

I just added Pinsound Plus board and new speakers! Awesome!! Especially with an external sub as well! Probably the best game for it with the new sound set! I like the red DMD as is though. IMO not worth the money to upgrade to color because you also have to upgrade the speaker panel to a clear windowed version. Another 100.00. Also, there aren't that many animations.

*EDIT - didn't mean to post but to edit my response above. My bad.

With the upgrades I just did, including Pinsound system, Invisiglass, LED's in backbox including flashers, art blades, spot light on cemetery, 3D lenticular apron cards, flashers on rear of Back box and red under cab lighting, I have about $5700.00 into it! A NIB Stern Pro a couple years ago!

No way, man. Banning pinball auction got $6400. Makes yours at least $8000.

Make sure you put at the end of your ad:

"I KnOW WHat I hAVe!!!!!!!"

/end sarcasm

LOL!
Banning was just retarded!

They already do.

The standard fully featured Ultraman/Halloween is already close to the new Stern Pro RRP at $6999.

People keep saying $8999 because they bought the fancy version … but you can buy exactly the same game for $6999.

rd

I totally agree with you. I believe if I feel slighted by these prices, you need to vote with your wallet.

Full transparency, I got carried away a couple of months ago and ended up pre-ordering both the Ultraman and Halloween games. After much thought, I've decided I'm likely going to get a refund or sell my spot, and just enjoy the games I currently have. I am going to also sell one of the games to finance the new Godzilla LE, and then I'm staying put for a while.

As I said in a previous post, I'll be waiting to see what Elwin puts out. As much as I love trying out new games, the prices have turned me off. Frankly, I thought the prices before the latest increase were absurd, but this has just pushed me to my limit.

Again, as you see, I'm still buying game (Elwin's titles) but I'm out on pretty much everything else. If JJP put something amazing together, maybe I'd sell something in my lineup to get it. But from now on, I'm not going to the bank for any pins. If I can't sell what I have to fund it, it's not happening.

In the end, the manufacturers have lost a lot of my money, but as someone else stated, two people will line up to take my spot, and the greed will continue.

lol...For real.

243158951_836639187055880_1111407005989233472_n (resized).jpg

Same old story

I ordered a Halloween CE and when the funds are right will probably purchase a Sterns Godzilla. Stern was smart and new exactly how and when to implement their price increases.
1. Increase price with a Elwin Yetti release
2. Load it up with more mechs/toys(many complaining about prior bare play fields)
3. Add connect
4. Godzilla worldwide theme
5. More people putting game rooms in their homes=Increased HUO buyer market(probably more the location buyers)
6. The pinball market has exploded, many people flipping NIB games for a profit
To Stern this will justify their price increases…
Let’s hope from this point on all new Stern games are just as loaded as Godzilla with this major price increase. No more $10000 bare LE play field games.

I hear you...the kids college thing, while more manageable now than before, is the largest drain. I'm setting myself work motivation goals in which most of the cash is dumping into investments and the kids college but I also have sink funds set up for vacation (don't take many of those) and pins which helps keep the motivation factor - I think the key factor though being the wife and I keep things simple and really don't spend much otherwise on ourselves.

The new crazy pricing though has made me very particular though about new purchases. It basically has to be a keeper from the getgo and not even considering any CE's or LE's anymore (except for BTTF)

From what I've seen, most electronics and computer technology have gone down in price. Flat screens, computers, gps, mixers, dvd payers, cell phones, etc...
This is most likely the result of newer technology allowing devices (like pinball machines) to be made cheaper. Seems like pinball manufacturers are taking advantage of peoples' addictions? Or is a pinball machine an exception?

Could be they sell Millions of phones, tvs, computers, and well DVD that died long ago compared to several thousand nitch pinball machines world wide. Maybe.

.

Get back in the game Jorant, you can never fully leave...

As much as I like the theme and game, GZ is not worth 9K.

Compare GZ at 9k vs most games listed for sale second hand right now and it's a steal of a deal.
I found it relatively easy to justify an LE at current prices when you compare to other options.
Second hand Stranger Things and Elviras? Forget about it.

So agree with you on this point. Most people don’t realize your cost is driven primarily by a) volume and b) labor. The actual parts not so much (well except that volume thing)

That said this recent price jump is (single data point as it may be) an aberration from their previous delta. Yeah yeah I know COVID this, part shortages that, dash of inflation there, etc. But really it seems more testing the waters of “How much will people pay before my total quarterly earnings levels off (or worse … declines)”.

I will say it is pushing operators immensely, as the economics of all this have never been particularly favorable to us. If I can put out a $400 Ms Pac-Man versus a $7K Godzilla, other than personal interest the Ms Pac wins every time.

I am BTW getting the Godzilla to go in my arcade so they haven’t lost me yet. But I’ll be honest the mental pause I have each time I do this is becoming longer and longer.

It would be interesting to see what the customer demography. breakdown really looks like and how much it has and continues to shift from operators to collectors (men with money). I suspect operators are diminishing. And then it really becomes a question of how much revenue is driven to stern by people playing games on location.

If the Stern Connect is to be believed they are sort of shooting themselves in the foot here. Less games on location, less stern connect subscription fees, more flogging of their new business model.

Let me be the devil’s advocate. Let’s suppose Stern makes an over abundance of money due to the raised prices. Might they pay their workers (US workers) more salary supporting their families better? I’d pay extra for that gladly. Maybe Stern has more fat profits and decides to plow some of that back into the code and designers team to make more great pins, better assets etc.

The inflation adjusted stagnant wages over some 2 decades argues strongly that this is almost certainly NOT what they will be doing if their revenue rises. To the degree any of the raised revenue has resulted in increased salaries it has been on the corporate executive suite side of things, not assembly line workers.

Now one would think that if you pay your workers better that this should provide some competitive advantage, thus lifting the boat up for everyone. However given the directional arrow towards not doing that it seems more likely there still remain perplexing disincentives towards doing this. I would bring in good old fashioned greed as an explanation for why wages are stagnant but there are likely larger forces at work here

Yeah Man, always liked your input.

Off topic, but I was reading that NYC FD which has around 17K employees typically has 1000 workers on sick leave per day (today they had over 2300 call out sick over 14% of the workforce). I don't know about you but I've called in sick 1-2 days in the past 25 years (hint I was truly sick). How is it that 5-10% of a workforce can call out sick except that they are paid for sick days and they abuse the system (IMO). this would tend to prove your point that giving extra benefits and pay won't necessarily lead to better service. A side note I read Starbucks is going to raise wages to $17/hr (between $15-23/hr).

Yeah always wondered how the route owners still justify this bumps. 7-9k for a game, liability, insurance, rent, damage, etc, etc just seems like a tough labor of love. How far beyond dollar per game will consumers go? Likely not far. Owning a route or gaming establishment has to be a tough pull these days.

Sick leave is a form of paid leave that you usually earn a set amount as you go. It is not abuse to take it when you need it even if it is for mental health including for doctor’s appointments, stress, exhaustion, family medical, funerals, or anxiety. Many businesses group sick and vacation leave as one type just called leave. It is unhealthy to not take some time off occasionally that you have earned working for the man.

The NY FD may be taking leave for a protest. I have no comment on that topic other than if it were a federal union job it would be illegal to organize such a strike.

What also worries me is how will games with a mandatory connection, or just a subscription option, be supported in the future? Most of us here are collectors... lots of us with old games, lots of us with newer games we'll keep for a long time.

20 years from now will some game features be unavailable because Stern turned off the subscription authentication servers? I sure hate that idea.