(Topic ID: 299785)

Stern's price increases may be pushing me out of this hobby

By jorant

3 months ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 399 posts
  • 192 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 31 days ago by horseflesh
  • Topic is favorited by 18 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    View topic image gallery

    243158951_836639187055880_1111407005989233472_n (resized).jpg
    PXL_20210827_183312406 (resized).jpg
    a7a07a5879a72dc8749ba777f7db4e9eecf5832c (resized).jpg
    6926E45F-8E59-4554-B39E-55EA9EBFF5CA (resized).jpeg
    FB55DE01-DBD2-475D-91C4-F015F7B814FA (resized).jpeg

    There are 399 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 8.
    #201 87 days ago
    Quoted from phishrace:

    Boy do I have good news for you. Turns out owning games isn't a requirement of the hobby. In fact, for the first 75 years or so of the hobby, virtually no one owned games other than operators.
    Here's some more good news: There are hundreds of games on location near you. Sell all your games and use the money to play on location. Problem solved!
    Opinions like yours (have to own games to participate in the hobby) reflect badly on the collector community. Are you seriously saying you can't enjoy pinball unless you own one? If yes, I feel sorry for you.

    What operators will buy new titles at these prices? ROI will be forever!

    #202 87 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    So higher than Stern, like every other company, correct?
    My exact figures are for entertainment purposes only.
    The question remains: why does Stern elicit and absorb the wrath of the spurned budget conscious collector while the other companies seem to escape such attention while being priced higher?
    Anybody interested in taking a swing at this one?
    Anyone?
    It’s not a gotcha question or a trap; I wanna know!

    Because Stern are the only company reliably producing multiple games per year, in volume, for years on end. And the games are mostly similar - almost generic. Stern games are like a commodity, particularly at the Pro level. Following the price of a Stern Pro is like the Big Mac Index of pinball.

    #203 87 days ago

    As a consumer, it sucks the big one and I'm completely understanding of why people are bitching. From a business perspective, they would be insane not to raise prices if they are indeed running with such a huge backlog.

    When I get too busy and have too much work the first thing I do is raise prices. It quickly weeds out those clients that suck up 80% of my time and only generate 20% of my revenue. I realize Stern is in the manufacturing business, but the same logic applies.

    12
    #204 87 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    So higher than Stern, like every other company, correct?
    My exact figures are for entertainment purposes only.
    The question remains: why does Stern elicit and absorb the wrath of the spurned budget conscious collector while the other companies seem to escape such attention while being priced higher?
    Anybody interested in taking a swing at this one?
    Anyone?
    It’s not a gotcha question or a trap; I wanna know!

    I’ll take a swing at that! It’s because of the perceived notion that Sterns are crafted from lower quality materials & in high volume, so they should be cheaper….like the fast food of pinball. Collectors who were always used to Sterns being cheaper than A tier B/W games or high end restorations can’t comprehend how cheapie dinky Stern McPins can be priced so high now.

    #205 87 days ago
    Quoted from snaroff:

    Go buy a pool table...great investment! NOT.
    Hard to believe how much energy goes into such a useless thread. Pinball machines are appreciating in value. People with money like pinball.

    actually both pool tables and table tennis prices have rocketed here in the UK because of folks buying "Man Caves" during the pandemic.

    #206 86 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I still don’t understand why people keep bitching about Stern as if it’s their fault prices are rising.
    Is it because they set the floor and not the ceiling?
    Every other manufacturer has higher entry level prices than Stern, yet you never hear anybody bitching about $9,000 spooky games or $6500 Houdinis.
    What gives? In 10 years of people whining about Stern’s price increase, Nobody has even tried to explain this to me. And I ask every time!!

    Because folks who think they care more about pinball think those other companies care more about pinball than Stern.

    You’re welcome.

    #207 86 days ago
    Quoted from Max_Badazz:

    Was BBB that long ago? It feels like it was only a few years ago that people were flipping them. I've been in the hobby way too long LOL

    June 2007, 14 years ago....where has the time gone man? Below is the link from RGP. I think it was the first one available for resale.

    https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.pinball/c/EM-6uuhu-hg/m/WddcT8ycwHsJ

    #208 86 days ago

    Stern is fast food? Huh? Call it whatever you want. Prices go up and the older you get the more cranky you get about how expensive everything is because you remember when it was cheaper. People have been complaining about prices ever since I have been in the hobby. I remember the uproar when a pro hit $5000 and toppers starting selling for $500. Now people are racing to buy $10000+ pins before they are even announced and demanding more $1000+ toppers.

    #209 86 days ago
    Quoted from jawjaw:

    Stern is fast food?

    I’m not saying that’s my opinion. I’m explaining the psychology of people who get more upset about Stern prices than other company’s prices.

    #210 86 days ago
    Quoted from NeilMcRae:

    actually both pool tables and table tennis prices have rocketed here in the UK because of folks buying "Man Caves" during the pandemic.

    Sure, but that's true for all "home improvement" products. I just waited over 10 months for a Hot Tub!

    Once the pandemic subsides and things get back to "normal", I can guarantee you that pinball machines hold their value much better than pool tables.

    #211 86 days ago

    The "hobby" is a lot bigger than accumulating NIB/recent games. I've seen tons of games under 1K pop up recently, including some decent SS minor projects. Important to keep perspective.

    #212 86 days ago
    Quoted from westofrome:

    The "hobby" is a lot bigger than accumulating NIB/recent games. I've seen tons of games under 1K pop up recently, including some decent SS minor projects. Important to keep perspective.

    I agree. There's a "Project Pins for Sale..." thread that regularly has games for under $1K. Only needing to have NIB games is only a small slice of what this hobby has to offer. I get that some people aren't inclined to work on projects or buy older games, but going NIB or bust is kind of a silly notion since there's a wide spectrum of pinball offerings. Enough for even the newest person to still jump in and enjoy the hobby. You can still buy working games for <$1500 if you're patient enough (SS or EM).

    IMO, some of the best games of all time are older games.

    #213 86 days ago
    Quoted from underlord:

    What operators will buy new titles at these prices? ROI will be forever!

    Ops focus on revenue and residual value - not initial costs.

    Rising costs are little impact to ops as long as the games hold their value. The equipment isn't perpetual - you sell it.

    What matters to ops is coin drop and reliability.

    #214 86 days ago
    Quoted from FatPanda:

    IMO, some of the best games of all time are older games.

    Absolutely agree. But all the nib prices are jacking those up way beyond where I'm comfortable being at. A rising tide raises all boats, I suppose. I know it is age talking, but it is crazy that some games are going for literally 4 times their previous value from only 12 years ago.

    #215 86 days ago

    I’ve been following the pinflation a bit.

    My view on this: the last year and a half you see LE games selling out in a matter of afew hours! Half of those go to customers who directly flip it on the forums for 3-7K more (remember Gnr CE selling for 20K nib!!, thats 7.5K profit for doing nothing and a multiple of what the manufacturer and distributor makes on selling games.
    Not saying it’s bad, it is what happens.

    So people buy more games than they need, creating an increased demand for a short period of time. The FOMO buyers see they can’t get the game and pay premium.

    A side effect (at least in the EU): the official distributors ‘hide’ their games and tell customers it’s no longer there, also selling their games via forums etc. Honestly, can you blame them? They make a few 1000 cash extra tax free, whereas they would normally make roughly a 1000 via the official way.
    Also this results in making it for customers more difficult to get their game. The half of stock was already sold to ‘investors’, then 10-20% disappears via the distributors and only a few games go to real customers.

    Now the solution: Take the pressure of the market by increasing the prices. Apparently the market wants to pay 15-20K for a toy.
    I would’ve raised maybe even more for a LE to maybe 12K USD, or to the point where your instant pre orders drop to maybe 80% or less.
    If people stop buying, the ‘flippers’ stop and distributors will have their normal stock and things will go quiet a bit.

    So: a logical step and the increase is not high enough.

    #216 86 days ago

    Folks still don’t know what the increase is… fwiw…it may not even be $600, $1,000, $1,000. JD and others have said there is no way they are increasing that much. Som e distros changed the price to “warn” or let customers be prepared for non-stock units moving forward susceptible to the increase from what I understand.

    #217 86 days ago
    Quoted from phishrace:

    What year is it in your head? This isn't the old days where operators only empty the coin box and wipe the glass. There are fewer games, but maintenance is much better. Many operators are hobbyist. I was an operator/ hobbyist for ten years. Did you know Keith Elwin is a former operator? Do you think the best player in the world had crappy games on location?
    Get out and check more of your local locations. You have lots of locations and games within an hour drive. Pinball map will give you plenty of clues on condition. Might remind you of why you got into the hobby in the first place.

    To be fair, most of the games around here are in pretty good shape and are fairly well taken care of, but 1-2 guys can only do so much. I'm always in Three60in 's ear telling him what problems I see and he does the best he can to stay on top of things. Maybe I'm just used to the dark ages where every game you came across in the wild barely worked, was filthy, and had like 2 GI bulbs weren't burnt out. Jorant is a stickler though. We're fortunate to have such nice machines as we do for location play not being a major pinball hot spot and I love playing on location. If a game has issues its certainly a bummer but for every game that is unplayable/borderline, theres usually 3 more in its place that are good to great

    #218 86 days ago

    Every Hobby and Collecting forum are having these same conversations. I'm also a Star Wars Collector and the prices of the vintage stuff are going through the roof. I think I would much rather spend $10,000 on a Pin than on a vintage MIB double telescoping Darth Vader. You can't do much with the Darth Vader other than look at it and dust it off from time to time. Everything is going up and there is nothing we can do about it.

    #219 86 days ago
    Quoted from snaroff:

    Sure, but that's true for all "home improvement" products. I just waited over 10 months for a Hot Tub!
    Once the pandemic subsides and things get back to "normal", I can guarantee you that pinball machines hold their value much better than pool tables.

    you can get free pool tables in my area. people just want them out of their house these days.

    #220 86 days ago
    Quoted from woody76:

    you can get free pool tables in my area.

    hot tubs and pianos, too. when it comes to certain heavy/cumbersome items, it is more cost effective to give them away than pay the costs associated with disposing of them.

    #221 86 days ago
    Quoted from greenhornet:

    hot tubs and pianos, too. when it comes to certain heavy/cumbersome items, its more cost effective to give them away than pay the costs associated with disposing of them.

    Yep. I've given away an upright piano that I just wanted out of the house! My 2k pool table sold for $200 IIRC

    People love art, lights, balls, nostalgia, etc. Good games will still hold most of their value and great games will skyrocket. With only 750 made, I'm absolutely certain that my Rick & Morty with butter will be 20k in 5-10 years. Since I love the game, doesn't really matter. For those who are nervous about forking over 10k or so, it's likely a safer investment than the stock market (which is at all-time highs).

    #222 86 days ago
    Quoted from jorant:

    Listen, you salty cunts, I didnt make this post to get you guys upset.

    14
    #223 86 days ago

    Prices will not stop rising until they hit a point where all these idiots stop buying flipped games for prices north of MSRP. I think stern raising prices AND making 1000 Godzilla LE is brilliant because it allows them to take back control of the market when I would imagine that everyone who wants one will be able to get one at street price so there will be no market for flippers. And if they do happen to sell out and flippers are making cash on Second hand flips, you’ll see the price and quantity go up again until equilibrium is achieved and these things become depreciating toys like you’d expect with frivolous purchases like pinball machines. It’s become absurd and this group has no one to blame but themselves for facilitating this ridiculous inflation.

    #224 86 days ago
    Quoted from Dkjimbo:

    Prices will not stop rising until they hit a point where all these idiots stop buying flipped games for prices north of MSRP.

    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    why not. If people still line up for them, they might as well milk the cow as much as they can. Only time you will see prices go down on NIB, is when you guys stop buying.

    There was only 7 years between these two quotes. I guess everyone is still lining up

    #225 86 days ago
    Quoted from DarthPaul:

    Every Hobby and Collecting forum are having these same conversations. I'm also a Star Wars Collector and the prices of the vintage stuff are going through the roof. I think I would much rather spend $10,000 on a Pin than on a vintage MIB double telescoping Darth Vader. You can't do much with the Darth Vader other than look at it and dust it off from time to time. Everything is going up and there is nothing we can do about it.

    Definitely, I've collected retro games to some degree most of my life, and prices have gone 3x-5x on sought after games/eras. Gamecube & N64 prices have gone nuts, but just about every category has climbed.

    For a manufacturer, you combine surging demand with a myriad of pandemic-related issues (supply shortages & price increases, skyrocketing labor costs). It's a perfect storm that's happening across many, many industries right now.

    On a personal note, it took me about 9 years of buying/selling and restoring games to build up enough equity in the hobby to be in Stern "Premium" territory. Now I can't get one and the price is surging. Back to square one, lol!

    #226 86 days ago
    Quoted from Aeolus7:

    Definitely, I've collected retro games to some degree most of my life, and prices have gone 3x-5x on sought after games/eras. Gamecube & N64 prices have gone nuts, but just about every category has climbed.

    I literally very nearly crapped myself when I was cataloguing stuff the other day. I'm apparently sitting on like 7k+ worth of game stuff I need to sell.

    #227 86 days ago

    I have a pretty good PC Engine/TG16 library and lots of hardware. Same for Sega Saturn.
    Sometimes its tempting to sell, but I know I would miss it, even if I dont use it.

    #228 86 days ago
    Quoted from mamawaldee:

    I have a pretty good PC Engine/TG16 library and lots of hardware. Same for Sega Saturn.
    Sometimes its tempting to sell, but I know I would miss it, even if I dont use it.

    It's just stuff, man. Stuff to fill the void of our lives.

    #229 86 days ago

    Any official word on just what the Price increase is?

    I'm not sure that business as usual is possible in this inflated market. Inflation is here.

    The problem is.... ROI is going be tough to realize. Lot of operators are already running on
    razor thin margins in some marketplaces.

    From a home collector / enthusiast standpoint. I know my Pinball budget for 2021 is
    already feeling the pinch from the last increases. I count myself blessed but 2020/2021 was
    a hard year for many.

    #230 86 days ago

    It's a simple function of supply and demand. You can see it in other gaming/entertainment sectors as well. Teenagers from the 80's/90's who used to go to arcades are now in their 40's/50's with an above average income. And they still like pinball. Add in a shock increase in demand for home entertainment because of the pandemic and you have exploding demand and this higher prices.

    At the same time supply chains are strained because of the pandemic, and the BOM goes up as well. This will have a further upward effect on game pricing.

    #231 86 days ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    Any official word on just what the Price increase is?
    I'm not sure that business as usual is possible in this inflated market. Inflation is here.
    The problem is.... ROI is going be tough to realize. Lot of operators are already running on
    razor thin margins in some marketplaces.
    From a home collector / enthusiast standpoint. I know my Pinball budget for 2021 is
    already feeling the pinch from the last increases. I count myself blessed but 2020/2021 was
    a hard year for many.

    Nothing official yet on price increase

    #232 86 days ago
    Quoted from mamawaldee:

    I have a pretty good PC Engine/TG16 library and lots of hardware. Same for Sega Saturn.
    Sometimes its tempting to sell, but I know I would miss it, even if I dont use it.

    The great thing is, you can play all your favorite games with Everdrives & ODEs on original hardware. I’ve got a MODE in my Saturn, and as soon as I stop being lazy, I’m gonna cash in & sell off my Saturn, Dreamcast, PS1, and GBA games.

    #233 86 days ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    I literally very nearly crapped myself when I was cataloguing stuff the other day. I'm apparently sitting on like 7k+ worth of game stuff I need to sell.

    Boom. Ultraman is paid for.

    #234 86 days ago
    Quoted from skink91:

    I have realized I just cannot remember the 80s accurately, so my question is legit: are location machines today in worse condition / more consistently out of service than ‘back in the day’? And if so, why?

    Funny enough, I think location machines are (generally speaking) in BETTER condition today than they were in the 80’s…at least in my small corner of the world.

    #235 86 days ago

    You want to know what's wrong with the pinball market?

    Who the F pays $11.39 for a coil sleeve?!? ebay.com link: itm
    You can get the same thing from Marco for $.80!!! https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/03-7066-1

    Too many uninformed, oversalaried people unwilling to do a little research. Just extrapolate that to machines and there you go.

    #236 86 days ago

    What are the price increases? Are they going up over what the pricing was for Mando?

    #237 86 days ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    The problem is.... ROI is going be tough to realize. Lot of operators are already running on
    razor thin margins in some marketplaces.

    I presume the concept of what an operator is will have to evolve. In the old days it was someone that bought a game, vended it, moved it along when it didn't earn anymore, rinse and repeat. Nowadays I assume the people operating will be pinball fanatics that will buy a game, put it on location so it earns some money, depreciate it over a period of time that makes the IRS happy, then they keep the game after that effectively getting a game they want at a huge discount. One they tire of it they can sell it for more than they have in it as the cost was offset by earnings, depreciation and tax deductions, rinse and repeat.

    #238 86 days ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    The great thing is, you can play all your favorite games with Everdrives & ODEs on original hardware. I’ve got a MODE in my Saturn, and as soon as I stop being lazy, I’m gonna cash in & sell off my Saturn, Dreamcast, PS1, and GBA games.

    Yep, I have a Turbo Everdrive as well. And all the ROMs for all the carts. Just not ready to sell the stuff.

    Dude I wish I still had my Micronauts. My dad threw out what is worth ungodly amounts of money now, and dont mention Legos.

    10
    #239 86 days ago
    Quoted from Faust:

    I’ve been following the pinflation a bit.
    My view on this: the last year and a half you see LE games selling out in a matter of afew hours! Half of those go to customers who directly flip it on the forums for 3-7K more (remember Gnr CE selling for 20K nib!!, thats 7.5K profit for doing nothing and a multiple of what the manufacturer and distributor makes on selling games.
    Not saying it’s bad, it is what happens.
    So people buy more games than they need, creating an increased demand for a short period of time. The FOMO buyers see they can’t get the game and pay premium.
    A side effect (at least in the EU): the official distributors ‘hide’ their games and tell customers it’s no longer there, also selling their games via forums etc. Honestly, can you blame them? They make a few 1000 cash extra tax free, whereas they would normally make roughly a 1000 via the official way.
    Also this results in making it for customers more difficult to get their game. The half of stock was already sold to ‘investors’, then 10-20% disappears via the distributors and only a few games go to real customers.
    Now the solution: Take the pressure of the market by increasing the prices. Apparently the market wants to pay 15-20K for a toy.
    I would’ve raised maybe even more for a LE to maybe 12K USD, or to the point where your instant pre orders drop to maybe 80% or less.
    If people stop buying, the ‘flippers’ stop and distributors will have their normal stock and things will go quiet a bit.
    So: a logical step and the increase is not high enough.

    OR.............. get rid of the stupid Pro and LE and go back to the way it was: one model with ALL the toys for everyone... this "I need all the special snowflake games in my gameroom" crap is one of the reasons we even have this tier system.

    The Premium was "the old base model". Then Stern gave us the Pro for the same price as their base model was with fewer toys and in some cases different rule sets and strategies, renamed the old base model as "the Premium", started charging us more for it, and this community fell completely for it.

    #240 86 days ago
    Quoted from NPO:

    The Premium was "the old base model". Then Stern gave us the Pro for the same price as their base model was with fewer toys and in some cases different rule sets and strategies, renamed the old base model as "the Premium", started charging us more for it, and this community fell completely for it.

    Yep, I always thought the Pro should have been called the Gelding.

    #241 86 days ago
    Quoted from underlord:

    What operators will buy new titles at these prices? ROI will be forever!

    I mean used machines are holding their value. So if an operator is to buy one put it on location for a while. Then sell it 6 months to a year later at essentially no loss. It's essentially all profit. And they can then buy another machine.

    #242 86 days ago
    Quoted from explosiveegg:

    I mean used machines are holding their value.

    This will only continue while demand outstrips supply. The idea of paying the same for a routed game as you would for a NIB only holds up when there’s not enough NIB games to satisfy demand.

    Once current production bottlenecks are resolved, the used market will suffer.

    Simple supply and demand, but by no means permanent.

    #244 86 days ago
    Quoted from cooked71:

    Once current production bottlenecks are resolved, the used market will suffer.
    Simple supply and demand, but by no means permanent.

    And when was the last time that happened?

    #245 86 days ago

    Just saying it’s literally only scarcity of new games allowing this to happen. At some point Covid disruptions will end, Stern will increase capacity and/or competitors will also increase capacity.

    It’s not unique to pinball - it’s happening in almost all durable consumer goods at the moment.

    3-4 years ago used games were always cheaper as is normal.

    Admittedly pinball is in a unique situation where the hobby was already booming leading into a huge supply disruption and a change in social conditions that meant the hobby boomed even more. It’s a perfect storm but by no means sustainable.

    #246 86 days ago

    I was watching a YouTube video about the chip shortage. It was talking about the auto industry but it should be similar for pinball.

    Basically there are a few giant chip makers and they make millions and millions of chips for everything like cars, tvs, video games, PCs ….

    They are running at 100% capacity and that’s it. They just simply can’t make more any faster. Auto companies have to decide which cars to make based on how many chips they can get their hands on. I was by a dealership that typically has hundreds and hundreds of cars in stock but looked like they had a few dozen. The lot was practically empty.

    It also takes hundreds of billions of dollars and years to build a new fab for making chips so it’s not like the shortage will go away quick. They have one machine in the factory that costs like $100M.

    #247 86 days ago

    i see no shortage of PINS for sale . Never seen so many for sale per day on pinside ever.

    Any and all titles. There was a Time You never saw a Quicksilver, Monster Bash or cactus canyon for sale. now it seems about every week you do.
    I do not get Where there is a shortage except for NIB overpriced Stern Homepins with coindooors or Way Overpriced falling Apart JJP chipping pooling NIB playfields which in all honesty we should all stay the F Away from anyway .

    / So why would i buy a Stern topper for 2 k When i can buy a Whole pinball machine for it .Topper that Cool?
    Why pay 10k for an old Tron pro when you can get a used Homepin with a coin door used for 4500-5500 or new for IDK What a pro now is 6500$ . see many ST pros/ And other new Sterns less than 7 years old for selling for under 5.5k with the same amount of features or more.?>
    Title? yeah Tron was a great Movie but legacy was not ..And the game is Good but not Mind blowing great even for a die hard Tron fan.
    In the end you pay what you will pay / me i am not paying or playing this game anymore. no Playfield lottery / Supply and demand lottery trying to Play PIN Stock market game.
    Just want to play pinball and buy pinball machines i feel are worth the Money and sell it for what i got into it. If i could profit cool but not a Priority in my hobby .
    Greeed! is selfish /

    Quoted from cooked71:

    This will only continue while demand outstrips supply. The idea of paying the same for a routed game as you would for a NIB only holds up when there’s not enough NIB games to satisfy demand.
    Once current production bottlenecks are resolved, the used market will suffer.
    Simple supply and demand, but by no means permanent.

    #248 86 days ago
    Quoted from jorant:

    So it seems the Stern price increases are official. And it just might be the last straw for my wallet and my love for the hobby. When these prices go up, used ones will go up even more. I really do feel that maybe this hobby is financially passing me by.

    I left the hobby this summer. Down to one game and barely play. It’s not a big deal. Sold two games of my three and put money into my house and other things. You can always come back. I could care less about online connection by Stern to gloat about stupid achievements on a freaking pinball game.

    #249 86 days ago

    Ya know guys, pinball machines have been made for decades. Why so many people here
    spend many kilo-bucks on NIB pins is beyond me. Is there that big of a difference between
    a brand new game than an older one (early SS or even EM)? Not in my opinion. There are
    many really great older pins out there. Look around and you'll find them.

    #250 85 days ago
    Quoted from mamawaldee:

    I have a pretty good PC Engine/TG16 library and lots of hardware. Same for Sega Saturn.
    Sometimes its tempting to sell, but I know I would miss it, even if I dont use it.

    Sell it bro. I am currently piecing out my collection (sorry all my TG and Saturn stuff is long gone, hot market) and its nice to let go. Part of me wants to hold onto things but every time I sell a piece that was really special to me it only stings until its sold, and then I feel fine. I'm sure one day I'll be kind of sad I sold all the stuff but when you have an entire room dedicated to NES/SNES/Genesis ect, and you never use any of it, whats the point? Ideally I'll use the money to buy more pins. Its a lot easier and more convenient to sell a couple pins than hundreds or thousands of games, I can tell you that much.

    There are 399 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 8.

    Hey there! Got a moment?

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside