Boy do I have good news for you. Turns out owning games isn't a requirement of the hobby. In fact, for the first 75 years or so of the hobby, virtually no one owned games other than operators.

Here's some more good news: There are hundreds of games on location near you. Sell all your games and use the money to play on location. Problem solved!

Opinions like yours (have to own games to participate in the hobby) reflect badly on the collector community. Are you seriously saying you can't enjoy pinball unless you own one? If yes, I feel sorry for you.

I'm not going to disagree with you. There is a limit to how much you can for a pinball game. I totally get it. A stern pinball machine over $10,000 now start putting that against a lot of things like a brand new Jet Ski, paying off your car, helping your kids thru college, and the list goes on and on. Look here is the deal... I think people will still buy them but they might not buy as many. Here is what I mean... Stern puts out a lot of games a year, JJP should be getting one new one out a year, Chicago Gaming same deal, American, and you throw in the BL and the Aliens, etc. I think people will get new machines but will be more picky about what they buy. Stern will probably start selling fewer machines going forward which is fine, because from their stand point they have more demand than production. In other words they have more orders than they have the ability to make games, so why not slow down orders to a level of what is possible to produce and charge a higher price.

I think this is what happens... selling 5000 to 6000 games probably won't happen going forward unless the title is a 100% home run. From Sterns standpoint even if sales go down they'll make the same and production will match orders going forward.

Prices going up, stern will blame a fancy new camera no one will use instead of their desire to find the ceiling, people say they can't buy games anymore, other people tell him to sell those games and play location. But what about mr.operator? Another 600 bucks for a pro has just devalued that space a wpc could take up in a bar. Sterns are reliable and that's the only reason ops buy them, it certainly isn't the price. I had sterns on location next to older DMD games they did the same coin drop. Stern should be careful here I think they are finally on that line.

Excellent point on the Stern Pros - the Legit bonifide Operators bread and butter for location play. Hobby operators who dabble with location play might be able to stomach the increases a bit more easily, but the Genuine Game Operator at some point is not going to be able to afford to buy NIB games to fill or freshen routes.

I have realized I just cannot remember the 80s accurately, so my question is legit: are location machines today in worse condition / more consistently out of service than ‘back in the day’? And if so, why?

I don’t remember actually thinking about the details involved in upkeep/service back then, when something was broken… it was just broken. I probably wouldn’t have even realized at the time that something was not working correctly unless I could see a broken piece/plastic/etc.

same

Pinball has been doing well recently for those guys also. I'm sure prices of the other games the operator buys have increased also. It's not just a pinball thing.

I think the operator was pointing out that coin drop on the new Stern games vs older games wasn't much different. He could fill his spaces with other older games. The Stern pricing at some point is going to have the operators buying less and less NIB games. There is a tipping point he was indicating if I read him correctly.

Possibly Pinsides first beergument, a language we can all speak.

Operators will just raise the price to play games too. It’s inflation, affects everything.

What if there AREN'T more buyers out there.......the economy takes another downturn, games get more expensive, whatever. You want those repeat customers.

You don't have to "sell" as hard to an already established (repeat) customer - as a seller, would you rather have to worry about finding 10 new buyers for the next 10 new games, or maybe for a small discount, you already know Joe Dependable will buy them?

Same reason people go to the same car dealerships for generations sometimes.

I do remember the 80s, and machines on location were better (around me anyway). We had an arcade that constantly got in new titles. Granted, games like Haunted House and Hercules would come in and be constantly broken, but that was because those ones were constantly breaking everywhere. Normally games would go into the front room when they were new, and they did a very good job keeping them playing and quarters flowing through them.

At stores that would have a couple games out front, the games would rotate fairly regularly. When a game wasn't playing well, it was gone fairly soon after that and replaced with a different one. These were routes and they were the livelihood of an operator. If they got there and the coinbox didn't have their salary in it, they had to do something about it. It wasn't a hobby, it was a job.

Very different from what I see on route today.

The BBB I bought back in 2007 for $11K is starting to look a bargain now a days We may have to get used to the fact that a lot of things are going up in price quicker than people are prepared for. In a few years we'll be looking back at this increase saying the same thing - so bookmark the thread.

My guess is labor costs are going to be the real killer down the line if not already and issue for Stern

I noticed the last time I hit The Depot they had the latest games but the 3 games for 2 dollars was missing.
As long as I can get my fix for 20 bucks can't see buying a new machine, they become boring too fast.

I think the issue is right now they don't have to sell to anyone. Buyers are coming to them, scambling over themselves for the next LE at inflated cost. The cost of new customer acquisition is zero, there is a line waiting. It's tough to think past that. Businesses at the end of the day are out to make money. You can choose to buy from them or not buy from them for whatever reason you want.

Everyone can say, "i'm not buying any more NIB pinballs" but they keep selling...so nothing changes. There is no incentive for them to discount product.

I have a business, and it's different. I make more money from repeat customers than I ever do from new customers. Every business is different though.

I cannot afford to do pinball the way some of you guys do. A NIB Stern pro isn't $6500, its $700 and a 2nd hand Stern Pro isn't $5800, it's $300. If you just keep buying pins and adding them to your collection, it gets really expensive really fast. I have a ton into my pins, but I rotate them frequently. If you buy a NIB Godzilla for $6500, you could sell it for $5800 (probably more) when you get tired of it. $700 for a new pin for a year isn't bad. When you move away from NIB to buying second hand and get a decent discount for it, the cost of owning a pin goes down to $200 or $300 for newer pins. After a certain age, they actually start to appreciate in value. If you look at games as temporary, the cost basis for this hobby goes way down. I've gone through about 25 pins in my 3 years in this hobby and so far only 1 pin is bolted to the floor, because STTNG is both amazing and HEAVY! It can leave the basement after my wake. Yes I have capital tied up in them but they can leave the basement on a week's notice and all for more than I paid for them now.

I'm just getting into this hobby and I have the same mindset. If there's some kind of crash, though, you're not selling them, or you're not selling for close to what you paid.

If there is a crash, all of the money in it is disposable income. NEVER buy a pin using money you cannot afford to just lose. NEVER buy on credit. NEVER buy a game assuming you will get a return if you have to sell it. Just put in money that you could have spent on other things like vacations or other hobbies.

Yes, over the last decade or so pinball "values" have climbed. That is awesome because there are not many hobbies where you can buy something, use it, and then get all of your money or MORE out of it when you sell. Just don't make the assumption that it will always be like that. Don't put next years mortgage payment into a pin for the year. It must always be money you can afford to lose. Do that, and you will never end up in a mess from the hobby.

price vs value. if you see the value the price doesn't matter. For me I think >£10K for a pinball machine is pushing on the value end of the equation in a negative way. Godzilla likely my last LE and then either buy nearly new or wait for the premium; but at this rate the premium's will be >10K in a couple of years. I've been a pinball buyer since Ghostbusters, I paid £7,245.00 for it now it would be £9795.00, a 25% increase in 5 years. Feels heavy to me.

I heard a rumor that Stern has a 12k unit backlog. If so, that is nearly a year worth of production (at 50/day) not counting weekends. If that is true... I hate to say it folks... but they would be nuts not to raise prices. People want to blame inflation but that ain't it (or not the big reason) .. it is just good ol' fashion supply/demand.

The question I have... is this just a temporary collectors bump in demand (https://www.detroitnews.com/story/life/2021/09/05/collectible-prices-skyrocket-dismay-hobbyists/118579444/ ) or is it a more fundamental change in the number of new players. My guess... is that it is #2. The Nerdist culture is absolutely booming, but it isn't embracing newer video games... the PS5 is killing it.... but there aren't a ton of actual games that are seeing YoY growth (or that I can see... I'd love to hear a counterpoint on that one). I am not shocked that we are seeing a bit of a transition from the digital to the tangible. Kids sports are seeing massive numbers... people seem to be connecting more over actually doing things near other people. Strange I know.

My $0.02 is that people are embracing pinball because it combines the nerdist culture, fun game play, and the ability to go out an be social with friends. That is driving demand, which is causing these pretty significant shortages of games.

Go look through the sale pending ads right now. It is insane. Hobbit and CV going for $10k. It was not that long ago both could be had for $6k. Hobbits used to set for months at $7k. Hell, I could barely sell my treasure cove CV restore for $6500. I just sold my JP premium for a nice profit. It is seriously stupid.

If additional covid shutdown concerns continue to plague the world, I wonder how many operators or bar/barcades are going to continue paying more for these games - especially considering most places that are left barely hung on the first time.

Somebody needs to say it...

Is the bubble about to burst?!?!

All of the signs are there: unprecedented demand...backlog for manufacturers...more people entering the hobby daily...

Doesn't look good folks!!!

Tim & Eric need to get into the pinball biz…they’re very competitive about prices!

Go buy a pool table...great investment! NOT.

Hard to believe how much energy goes into such a useless thread. Pinball machines are appreciating in value. People with money like pinball.

There will always be blips but Even with the complete insertion of bannings collection into the market somewhere Pinball will remain hot for the next 30 plus years in my opinion.

I’m pretty sure of myself on predictions, but it is just that; a prediction.

The current backlog I suspect isn't 100% real either as I know many distributors who are putting in giant orders they couldn't pay for or sell if it all shipped today. They just hope that if they put in an order for 100 Pros they will get more than 3.

yeah, could be.... if that is the case things could go sideways quickly.

Used parts prices are just as insane. I just sold this chime box on e-bay. I would have been happy with 20 bucks.

ebay.com link: itm

dang, I used to sell chime boxes for $20 on ebay.

Doesn't look good for who? Looks amazing for people like me who can't afford shit in this hobby!

Sell your AFMr for 8.5k and your Walking dead premium for 7.5k and walk away with about 3k in profit from what you paid to cover the price increase on 3 new sterns

He meant to write...sell your Walking Dead to Rob for 7.5k

I dunno... I need some sort of analogy to explain it. Do you have one that involves cars, houses, or jets?

Was BBB that long ago? It feels like it was only a few years ago that people were flipping them. I've been in the hobby way too long LOL

Nope, not even close. Around here, there are several large arcades with plenty of clean, working games, along with plenty of smaller locations. Maybe Roscoe, IL is still in the dark ages of late 90s, but Cincinnati has plenty of places to play all over town.

Final Fantasy 14.

By the time Ebay and Paypal take their cut, and you have to fight to get the money when the buyer files a dispute you probably should've just sold it locally for 20 bucks, though. LOL.

Over the last year game prices on the used market have seen up to a 300% increase to pricing. A company that has to airdrop in parts to keep up with massive demand and lack of supply is doing the smart tactic of increasing price.

This isnt the first time the cost of games have gone up and someone makes this post on pinside. I would have thought the jump from $3800 to $6400 in the past 10 years would have scared people off and not a $400-$600 jump.

Stern is making CGC, American Pinball, and especially Spooky, look like a better deal. Unless they come out with something unbelievable, I'm DONE with Stern for now. Other companies are offering a better deal bottom line.

Yea, I have sympathies for the OP. All things are relative. Apologize if this rant seems too long.

We have many new local friends who want to get into the hobby. They either come over or see the wife's Facebook pics of the basement. After they express interest in picking up a game, I preface all the following conversations with something that basically goes like this:

"Well, if I were you, I would not get into this hobby. I got into it when things were affordable. It is no longer affordable".

Part of the disclaimer is a sincere attempt to soften the blow for when the inevitable questions about prices start, but the other part is to save face and prevent them from thinking I actually paid these prices for my games. And I started out paying retail because I didn't know any better. And those titles are now over double what I paid. To normal people these prices are crazy. Or at least they should be.

There are currently 14 machines in the basement, and I am out of room. The most recent purchases were MBrLE and Alice Cooper. Alice was not expensive at all when compared to what is going on now. After prices went to ludicrous I filled out the remaining space with a few sit down arcade racing machines, and briefly looked at picking up a big ball bowler and still would if the right one showed up locally. Inflation has made shipping arcades prohibitive for me.

Its actually pretty nice to be out of room at these prices, in a roundabout way it satisfies the itch to get more. I don't intend on selling any of them to mix it up, I couldn't choose what to let go and could not reacquire many of them at these prices. We are lucky to live in an area with alot of pins on location and we get to play all the new titles. We are 20 minutes away from the VFW museum, we have Marvin's museum, and a few other places.

Before these prices, I was looking at building out under the deck to add more space, doing that could more than double the available space for pins. At least an addition would serve to increase the value of the house even if it remains empty. Or I can just spread everything out a bit. Hopefully I can take advantage of cheaper prices someday. The wish-list is really not that long, consisting of mainly 90s B/W titles. I enjoy the new sterns but they seem too cheaply built for the money. And I think the Pro model shouldn't exist. The Premium should be the standard like in the old days, there was one model and it was loaded. If operators want to turn off features that lead to excessive maintenance, that should be easy. Stop charging me extra for what used to be there from the get go, I hate that crap.

But I don't think prices will go down significantly, if ever. But it did happen briefly with the CGC remakes, so it can happen again. So I remain hopeful. If this insanity continues, I'm ok to just keep what I have and remain out of this market indefinitely. You reach a point where its not whether or not you can afford it, its just what else you can get for that much money.

Speaking of remakes, Whitewater and TOTAN need to be remade, because they are on the wish-list and have gotten totally out of hand. And they can remake- the remakes of AFM and MM again for the same reason. Went to Oakland expo around 2009, beautiful WH20 with invisiglass for $3.5k. AFM wasn't much more. If only I knew to bring money, it was our first pinball expo. It would have been worth a 2nd mortgage to load up everything that was there.

I still don’t understand why people keep bitching about Stern as if it’s their fault prices are rising.

Is it because they set the floor and not the ceiling?

Every other manufacturer has higher entry level prices than Stern, yet you never hear anybody bitching about $9,000 spooky games or $6500 Houdinis.

What gives? In 10 years of people whining about Stern’s price increase, Nobody has even tried to explain this to me. And I ask every time!!

Wait… Are you asking for a sense of logic or common sense from Pinside?

Spooky entry level is 7k, not 9k.

So higher than Stern, like every other company, correct?

My exact figures are for entertainment purposes only.

The question remains: why does Stern elicit and absorb the wrath of the spurned budget conscious collector while the other companies seem to escape such attention while being priced higher?

Anybody interested in taking a swing at this one?

Anyone?

It’s not a gotcha question or a trap; I wanna know!

What year is it in your head? This isn't the old days where operators only empty the coin box and wipe the glass. There are fewer games, but maintenance is much better. Many operators are hobbyist. I was an operator/ hobbyist for ten years. Did you know Keith Elwin is a former operator? Do you think the best player in the world had crappy games on location?

Get out and check more of your local locations. You have lots of locations and games within an hour drive. Pinball map will give you plenty of clues on condition. Might remind you of why you got into the hobby in the first place.