(Topic ID: 284355)

Stern's new EULA

By attack7

10 months ago


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    10
    #1 10 months ago

    Putting this here for future reference:

    STERN PINBALL

    END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT

    This limited software license Agreement (“Agreement”) applies to your use of Stern Pinball Software pre-installed on a Stern Pinball Machine and any Authorized Updates made available to you. BY USING YOUR STERN PINBALL MACHINE, YOU AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT. If you do not agree to the terms of this Agreement, do not use your Stern Pinball Machine or any Authorized Updates. Please read this entire Agreement, which governs your use of the Stern Pinball Machine, Stern Pinball Software and all Authorized Updates. ADULT CONSENT TO ENTER INTO THIS AGREEMENT, YOU MUST BE AN ADULT OF THE LEGAL AGE OF MAJORITY IN YOUR COUNTRY OF RESIDENCE. YOU ARE LEGALLY AND FINANCIALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL ACTIONS USING YOUR STERN PINBALL MACHINE AND SOFTWARE AND ACCESSING OR USING ANY ONLINE GAMING PLATFORM, INCLUDING THE ACTIONS OF ANYONE YOU ALLOW TO USE AND ACCESS TO YOUR MACHINE AND ANY ASSOCIATED ACCOUNT. YOU AFFIRM THAT YOU HAVE REACHED THE LEGAL AGE OF MAJORITY, UNDERSTAND AND ACCEPT THIS AGREEMENT. IF YOU ARE UNDER THE LEGAL AGE OF MAJORITY, YOUR PARENT OR LEGAL GUARDIAN MUST CONSENT TO THIS AGREEMENT. DEFINITIONS.
    “Stern Pinball Machine” means a Stern Pinball arcade game machine.
    “Stern Pinball Software” means software (including but not limited to firmware) pre-installed in the Stern Pinball Machine, including all Authorized Content and any Authorized Updates that Stern Pinball may make available to You from time to time.
    “Authorized Content” means all Stern Pinball and third-party owned software and content incorporated into or used with the Stern Pinball Software or otherwise embedded in or utilized by a Stern Pinball Machine, including but not limited to graphics, images, music, vocals and voices.
    “Authorized Update” means an update to the Stern Pinball Software distributed by Stern Pinball or otherwise made available by Stern Pinball, including for download on its web site.
    “Unauthorized Content” means all content, including but not limited to limited to graphics, images, music, vocals and voices, that does not comprise Authorized Content or an Authorized Update.
    “Unauthorized Software” means any software (including but not limited to firmware) not pre-installed by Stern Pinball on a Stern Pinball Machine or that does not comprise Authorized Content or Authorized Update.
    “You” means the purchaser or current owner of a Stern Pinball Machine.
    LICENSE. Stern Pinball hereby grants You a nonexclusive, non-transferable, limited, and revocable right and license to use one copy of the Stern Pinball Software and Authorized Content and any Authorized Update solely for your personal use, or that of your patrons and customers if you are a commercial entity, for playing a single Stern Pinball Machine. The Stern Pinball Software, Authorized Content and Authorized Updates are licensed, not sold, to You, and no ownership rights are transferred by this Agreement. The Stern Pinball Software Authorized Content and Authorized Updates are protected by U.S. and international copyright. All rights not explicitly granted to you in this Agreement are reserved by Stern Pinball.
    As a condition to this Stern Pinball Software license, You agree that:
    You will not copy, reproduce, alter, replace, distribute, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, display, perform, create derivative works based on, or otherwise modify the Stern Pinball hardware or Stern Pinball Software or any Authorized Update, in whole or in part; and will not commercially exploit any of the foregoing.
    You will not use or install any Unauthorized Content or Unauthorized Software. Use of Unauthorized Content or Unauthorized Software may result in your Stern Pinball Machine ceasing to work permanently and/or losing access to Stern Pinball’s online game network, either immediately or after a later installed Authorized Update.
    You will not create, develop, distribute or assist anyone else in creating, developing or distributing any Unauthorized Content or Unauthorized Software intended for use with a Stern Pinball Machine, whether to add to or modify the gameplay, any audio content (whether music, sound or voice), or any video content of any Stern Pinball Machine, or to gain advantage in any online or other game modes, or otherwise.
    You will not share any Stern Pinball Software, Authorized Content or Authorized Update with any other person or company and will not permit anyone else to access or copy any Stern Pinball Software or Authorized Content or Authorized Update installed on your Machine for any purpose.
    In view of the rights held by third-party owners of Authorized Content (e.g. music and video clips) You will not stream your gameplay of your Stern Pinball Machine without Stern Pinball’s prior consent.
    You will not attempt to defeat or circumvent any anti-piracy, security, and/or technical measures to control access to the Stern Pinball Software, features, functions or content, prevent unauthorized use, or otherwise prevent anyone from exceeding the limited license rights granted under this Agreement, “Security Measures”. Attempting to defeat or circumvent any Security Measure may result in your Stern Pinball Machine ceasing to work permanently either immediately or after a later installed Authorized Update.
    Stern Pinball may update the Stern Pinball Software from time to time without further notice to You, for example, to update any anti-piracy, security, and technical measure.
    PRIVACY POLICY Your use of the Stern Pinball Machine, Stern Pinball Software and any Authorized Updates are subject to Stern Pinball’s Privacy Policy which can be found at https://sternpinball.com/privacy-policy/ WARRANTY EXCEPT AS PROVIDED HEREIN, THE STERN PINBALL SOFTWARE, AUTHORIZED CONTENT AND AUTHORIZED UPDATES ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" AND, TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT ALLOWABLE UNDER LAW, STERN PINBALL DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, WHETHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, AND NONINFRINGEMENT. WITHOUT LIMITING THE FOREGOING, STERN PINBALL DOES NOT WARRANT THAT OPERATION OF THE STERN PINBALL MACHINE OR ANY ONLINE OR CONNECTED GAME NETWORK WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED OR ERROR-FREE. EXCLUSION OF CERTAIN DAMAGES STERN PINBALL IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES; ANY LOSS OF DATA, PRIVACY, CONFIDENTIALITY, OR PROFITS; OR ANY INABILITY TO USE THE STERN PINBALL MACHINE, STERN PINBALL SOFTWARE OR ANY AUTHORIZED UPDATE. THESE EXCLUSIONS APPLY EVEN IF STERN PINBALL HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF THESE DAMAGES, AND EVEN IF ANY REMEDY FAILS OF ITS ESSENTIAL PURPOSE. Some countries do not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damages, so this limitation or exclusion may not apply to You. These terms apply to the maximum extent permitted by law and unless prohibited by law. These terms do not change your rights under the laws of your country if those laws do not permit that change. TERRITORY AND CHOICE OF LAW This License is valid only in the country in which you purchased your Stern Pinball Machine. This License will be subject to and construed in accordance with the laws of the State of Illinois, U.S.A., regardless of conflict of laws principles. You agree to submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the state and federal courts in Cook County, Illinois, U.S.A. for the resolution of any dispute regarding this Agreement or the subject matter of this Agreement and to waive any jurisdictional, venue, or inconvenient forum objections to such courts. This Agreement may be updated by Stern Pinball from time to time with the current version posted at www.sternpinball.com/EULA. Your continued use of the Stern Pinball Software an Authorized Update after an updated Agreement has been posted constitutes your acceptance of all of its terms.

    ----

    I understand that Stern is worried about license holders, but the language here is broad. No streaming without written consent? It appears they're also going after mod makers of all kinds. I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know about the enforceability of something like "BY USING YOUR STERN PINBALL MACHINE..." when the EULA wasn't accepted as a term of sale.

    Reading this doesn't make me feel good or that Stern is just protecting its rights. Seems like an overreach.

    #2 10 months ago

    Ugh ....

    #3 10 months ago

    Looks to me like some of the rights holders have asked Stern to include language to make sure end users are aware that the license doesn't include streaming the audio and video content...

    #4 10 months ago
    Quoted from attack7:

    I understand that Stern is worried about license holders, but the language here is broad. No streaming without written consent? It appears they're also going after mod makers of all kinds. I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know about the enforceability of something like "BY USING YOUR STERN PINBALL MACHINE..." when the EULA wasn't accepted as a term of sale

    Yeah, talk about unenforceable... Much of this is the kind of stuff you'd expect in a click-through (don't modify, redistribute, reverse engineer, etc) - but they have gone way beyond that with the stuff like the streaming, or trying to limit modifications or 3rd party code.

    F'em.

    I just hope this doesn't mean they are starting to take a much more aggressive line against the re-packed audio/video releases. Which I guess they will... since they are trying to set their baseline claims on what is acceptable in this new EULA.

    #5 10 months ago

    This seems like a putting the genie back in the bottle effort. Guess I’ll hit up the contact is form and ask what the process of obtaining prior consent is. I assume that hasn’t been thought through.

    #6 10 months ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    Yeah, talk about unenforceable... Much of this is the kind of stuff you'd expect in a click-through (don't modify, redistribute, reverse engineer, etc) - but they have gone way beyond that with the stuff like the streaming, or trying to limit modifications or 3rd party code.
    F'em.
    I just hope this doesn't mean they are starting to take a much more aggressive line against the re-packed audio/video releases. Which I guess they will... since they are trying to set their baseline claims on what is acceptable in this new EULA.

    This will be enforceable once their machines go online

    This is all in prep for this. Very much like Microsoft, sony and others scan their networks for modded machines connected, Stern will do the same and will easily detect modded software. MS and Sony ban and Stern seems like will either brick the machine or something similar. Absolute bs.

    The question will be then do you go online or not if you mod the software....

    #7 10 months ago

    So, this is starting from which game?

    LZ?

    #8 10 months ago
    Quoted from Shapeshifter:

    So, this is starting from which game?

    It looks as though you need to accept it before downloading software now...

    #9 10 months ago
    Quoted from Shapeshifter:

    So, this is starting from which game?
    LZ?

    Probably retroactive and you already owe them damages

    #10 10 months ago

    and whats more, they are going to charge you more for it too

    #11 10 months ago
    Quoted from Shapeshifter:

    So, this is starting from which game?
    LZ?

    it was a click-through EULA when you tried to download any file off their game code page today. But its gone again right now. So either they are still playing with the website... or maybe they were premature... or something.

    #12 10 months ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    it was a click-through EULA when you tried to download any file off their game code page today. But its gone again right now. So either they are still playing with the website... or maybe they were premature... or something.

    Stern being Stern?

    #13 10 months ago

    Didn't notice it with my Maiden update?

    19
    #15 10 months ago

    Fair use is built into copyright law and their EULA doesn't make it just go away. Remember Galoob vs Nintendo regarding Game Genie. Folks have the legal right to change the bits in software on their devices. Also, tying acceptance of an EULA to simply playing a machine .. that would be interesting to see in court. Remember, WMS had those FBI warning stickers in the backbox that said essentially the same thing, and everyone ignored them. If I buy a game secondhand and play it, I didn't legally agree to diddly-squat.

    The problem is this: "and/or losing access to Stern Pinball’s online game network"

    If they try to pull PSN or Xbox Live bullshit and force users to subscribe to said network get normal software updates (where they can track and ban you), that will be the end of Stern for me. If I want to, say, make my Metallica play folk music, that is still my legal right.

    Streaming stuff will be an interesting fight.. I can see the desire to block streaming of modified 3rd party content (Metallica might get pissed if videos of folk Metallica proliferate) and such streams may not have strong fair-use protections.

    #16 10 months ago
    Quoted from metallik:

    Fair use is built into copyright law and their EULA doesn't make it just go away. Remember Galoob vs Nintendo regarding Game Genie. Folks have the legal right to change the bits in software on their devices. Also, tying acceptance of an EULA to simply playing a machine .. that would be interesting to see in court. Remember, WMS had those FBI warning stickers in the backbox that said essentially the same thing, and everyone ignored them. If I buy a game secondhand and play it, I didn't legally agree to diddly-squat.
    The problem is this: "and/or losing access to Stern Pinball’s online game network"
    If they try to pull PSN or Xbox Live bullshit and force users to subscribe to said network get normal software updates (where they can track and ban you), that will be the end of Stern for me. If I want to, say, make my Metallica play folk music, that is still my legal right.
    Streaming stuff will be an interesting fight.. I can see the desire to block streaming of modified 3rd party content (Metallica might get pissed if videos of folk Metallica proliferate) and such streams may not have strong fair-use protections.

    Say goodbye to online then. You have no protection there. I don't like it either but that's the game. For me I'll stay offline.

    #17 10 months ago

    Ug, self edit, dont want to sound so negative.

    #18 10 months ago

    So is a recorded video of gameplay ok? That's not a "stream." This EULA language seems broad and ambiguous.

    10
    #19 10 months ago

    already assembling my defense team

    defenseteam (resized).jpg
    11
    #20 10 months ago

    Stern's law firm : Dewey , Screwem and Howe !

    #21 10 months ago
    Quoted from gonzo73:

    And a Merry Christmas from Scrooge!!!
    Scooge the gutless industry leader.
    Thanks!
    Great news!
    We have no rights!
    Wonderful!
    Do as we say, or we brick all your toys!
    So thoughtful!
    So magnanimous!
    So generous!
    We hate our customers, and the hobby!
    We hate the moders, we hate freedom!
    Were a manufacturing company!
    Not a Pinball company!
    So obvious.
    The Pinball Ghosts of Christmas past, present, and future are spinning in thier graves.

    Excellent. They should put this on the factory walls. Another reason to not buy. Keep my savings growing.

    #22 10 months ago

    Be happy in your work, work will set you free,
    Or you get hit on the head with a empty Vodka Bottle.

    #23 10 months ago
    Quoted from gonzo73:

    Be happy in your work, work will set you free,
    Or you get hit on the head with a empty Vodka Bottle.

    A message from the freeeeeeeek kingdom.

    #24 10 months ago

    SD card page (for making a new image) comes up empty. Anyone else getting the same?

    #25 10 months ago
    Quoted from attack7:

    In view of the rights held by third-party owners of Authorized Content (e.g. music and video clips) You will not stream your gameplay of your Stern Pinball Machine without Stern Pinball’s prior consent.

    Quoted from attack7:

    ----
    I understand that Stern is worried about license holders, but the language here is broad. No streaming without written consent? It appears they're also going after mod makers of all kinds. I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know about the enforceability of something like "BY USING YOUR STERN PINBALL MACHINE..." when the EULA wasn't accepted as a term of sale.
    Reading this doesn't make me feel good or that Stern is just protecting its rights. Seems like an overreach.

    It's a reaction to the RIAA cracking down on twitch and live streaming in general.

    Technically, streaming copyrighted music to the internet is a public performance, and needs to be licensed.

    Yeah, it sucks since all you want to do is share what you like, but them's the breaks. Copyright enforcement technology has caught up to what people are actually doing, and what people were doing has grown big enough to take the notice of copyright holders.

    Until licensing becomes a simple process of a few mouse clicks, the friction between copyright holders and average people just using the internet is going to be present.

    #26 10 months ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    It's a reaction to the RIAA cracking down on twitch and live streaming in general.

    Thanks for throwing in your thoughts on this ForceFlow. Up front, I don't stream and don't plan to. And I'm asking these questions to be educated, not to be challenging.

    If the RIAA are the ones cracking down, why is Stern the able to grant written permission?

    I assume that for their own IP, if they were to do a truly original unlicensed game, they'd be the ones granting permission.

    But if, as an example, some streamer asks if they can stream Led Zeppelin, would Stern ask the licensor on the streamer's behalf? Seems unlikely, or that the answer would be no. Or is it Stern's right to give license to do so? If so, why no grant a blanket license to people to stream their games?

    Wouldn't it be simpler to just say something like "Rebroadcast of copyrighted content is subject to applicable laws" and call it a day, if they're looking for some kind of means to say they've brought attention to the issue?

    You have to think that streaming pinball games is of much more benefit than harm to Stern. I would have no idea what Avengers plays like without it, since all locations are closed here. And even when they are open, it takes weeks or months for me to see one in the wild.

    #27 10 months ago
    Quoted from Sethman:

    SD card page (for making a new image) comes up empty. Anyone else getting the same?

    I wonder if they are trying a new encryption on their stuff or have an update to upload still. Hope someone archived it!

    18
    #28 10 months ago

    We could stop buying licensed themes and only support original content.

    #29 10 months ago

    This may have something to do with an upcoming theme (speculation). In the Gary Stern interview, he mentioned these types of things affecting liscensing. He mentioned something about them asking what they are doing to protect the ip and cracking down. Maybe there is a very hard to attain liscense that they picked up and this is needed? All speculation

    #30 10 months ago
    Quoted from attack7:

    You have to think that streaming pinball games is of much more benefit than harm to Stern. I would have no idea what Avengers plays like without it, since all locations are closed here. And even when they are open, it takes weeks or months for me to see one in the wild.

    To me this is going to be a reason why Stern will (or should) continue to work on this issue: it's slam dunk marketing for them. At the same time, that probably comes with extra licensing hurdles and could likely lead to the strategic granting of permission (Dead Flip) as opposed to a blanket "yes." (That still doesn't solve Twitch shutting DF down though.) My hope is that this is stopgap language intended to assuage the powers that be until they can figure out how to navigate the landscape in a fashion that most benefits their business.

    #31 10 months ago
    Quoted from Tomass:

    This may have something to do with an upcoming theme (speculation). In the Gary Stern interview, he mentioned these types of things affecting liscensing. He mentioned something about them asking what they are doing to protect the ip and cracking down. Maybe there is a very hard to attain liscense that they picked up and this is needed? All speculation

    Well, LZ is very very strict on their licensing. It could very much have to do with that.

    #32 10 months ago
    Quoted from attack7:

    If the RIAA are the ones cracking down, why is Stern the able to grant written permission?

    They may have licensed the right to do product promotions or events. It would be kind of pointless to be able to build a product and not be able to advertise it. Or depending on licensing, they might only be allowed to do a pre-recorded advertisement that is subject to approval, and live events/streams weren't part of the agreement. But, since Stern hasn't detailed what they're doing, I can't pretend to know.

    Quoted from attack7:

    I assume that for their own IP, if they were to do a truly original unlicensed game, they'd be the ones granting permission.

    Maybe. It depends on the agreement with the artist and if it's a work-for-hire contract with the artist, or if the artist retains copyright.

    Copyright is complicated.

    Quoted from attack7:

    Wouldn't it be simpler to just say something like "Rebroadcast of copyrighted content is subject to applicable laws" and call it a day, if they're looking for some kind of means to say they've brought attention to the issue?

    That depends on what agreements and licensing are in place, and what their lawyers are recommending. Plus the issue with live streaming is very recent, so everyone is still trying to figure things out.

    Quoted from attack7:

    But if, as an example, some streamer asks if they can stream Led Zeppelin, would Stern ask the licensor on the streamer's behalf?

    Quoted from attack7:

    You have to think that streaming pinball games is of much more benefit than harm to Stern.

    Yes, of course Stern wants to see their product advertised as much as possible, but they don't own everything in the game lock, stock, and barrel. Some of it they own, but much of the content in the game is licensed. The music, the artwork, the animations, the characters, the actors, the voice actors, the game title, various other trademarked terminology (character appearances, character names, logos, etc).

    So, I suspect that for random streamers, Stern or the licensor won't bother. But for streamers doing official promotional stuff or events for stern, then maybe. They might not even have figured things out yet.

    The RIAA kind of brought everything to a screeching halt here quite suddenly.

    Quoted from attack7:

    If so, why no grant a blanket license to people to stream their games?

    Some video games to have something like that in place in their EULA. And some video games have a "streaming mode" that can be enabled that prevents any copyrighted music from playing that they can't give rebroadcast or public performance rights for. Maybe this is what stern will do? Again, I have no idea how things are going to play out. It's going to take a little while for all the lawyers to hash things out, and for technology to adapt to what the lawyers and license agreements say can/can't happen.

    [edit]: I'm no expert on this stuff, so don't take any of this as legal advice. It's just a subject that I'm interested in since it's so relevant to internet life these days.

    #33 10 months ago

    This is probably a bit naive on my part, but Once you buy a game, isn’t it yours to do as you please, including hacking the software? You void your warranty, but what’s the issue otherwise? You’ve effectively paid the license fee when you buy the game. I thought the problem comes when you start doing software modifications with licensed clips or sounds you haven’t paid for and then offering it to others, free or not. This notion that stern could detect a change you’ve made and somehow disable your game doesn’t seem right.

    What would stop someone from instead of sharing their revised code to telling others how to do it themselves?

    #34 10 months ago
    Quoted from Lermods:

    This is probably a bit naive on my part, but Once you buy a game, isn’t it yours to do as you please, including hacking the software? You void your warranty, but what’s the issue otherwise? I thought the problem comes when you start doing modifications and then offering it to others, free or not. This notion that stern could detect a change you’ve made and somehow disable your game doesn’t seem right.
    What would stop someone from instead of sharing their revised code to telling others how to do it themselves?

    Whole new realm. Historically, while there are provisions against reverse engineering (in the states) when game consoles went online, they really only banned systems with hacker/cheaters. That really doesn't come into play in pinball..at least not yet. There are laws around you being able to do whatever to something you own, but you cannot sell, you cannot give away modified code (for example) to others without rights. Lawyers love vague blanket statements that allow them to twist it to do their bidding as necessary.

    Where this is really going to become a problem is for example Youtube review videos and streams of people playing the games, which is COMPLETE horseshit IMO. Nintendo is very much guilty of such nonsense. As are the music/movie copyright trolls. Or for those who want a really good example of abuse. The Superbowl.

    With the new crap they put in the stimulus package revolving around movies/streaming etc, everyones lives are about to get a bit harder in the entertainment realm.

    In the context you are probably asking from, I doubt anyone is going to come after you for mods you make, unless you flat out 'borrow' an image owned by someone else. Since this is such a niche market, it is highly unlikely even if you did (say AC/DC font) that anything would happen, but that is highly up to the copyright owners and their lawyers discretion.

    #35 10 months ago
    Quoted from Lermods:

    This is probably a bit naive on my part, but Once you buy a game, isn’t it yours to do as you please, including hacking the software? You void your warranty, but what’s the issue otherwise? I thought the problem comes when you start doing modifications and then offering it to others, free or not. This notion that stern could detect a change you’ve made and somehow disable your game doesn’t seem right.
    What would stop someone from instead of sharing their revised code to telling others how to do it themselves?

    It's complicated. Even a lawyer might not be able to give you a straight answer since there's a lot of rules, exceptions, allowances under certain situations and not others, different jurisdictional rules...etc. But yes, Sharing copyrighted material that you don't own is a no-no.

    Generally, yes, you can usually do what you want to your own device. You can also write your own guides on how to modify...in some situations. Up until a couple years ago, breaking DRM was technically illegal, but there now is an allowance for purposes of repair. Sharing a guide on how to bypass DRM might still be frown upon.

    If you do modify your device, a service provider can cut off service at any time if they don't like what you're doing. If your device is built in a way that requires active service in order to operate, and that service is terminated, then you're probably SOL. What they (probably) can't do is take the physical item away (although I'm sure a fleet of lawyers could put forth a lawsuit of some sort to try to accomplish this if they really wanted to). I'm not aware of the legalities surrounding a kill switch to disable a device that doesn't necessarily require active service to run, although Apple kind of has this ability with devices they manufacture.

    There's kind of a big shift happening right now with companies pushing SaaS (Software as a service) subscription models. It's more profitable for them to have a continuous revenue stream, rather than a one-and-done approach to a sale. Personally, I don't like this approach since this means someone else has control over something I bought.

    #36 10 months ago
    Quoted from gonzo73:

    Be happy in your work, work will set you free,
    Or you get hit on the head with a empty Vodka Bottle.

    as written on the gates of aushwitz

    25
    #37 10 months ago

    Wow, that was a really long winded way for Stern to say they want me to give my money to other companies that actually care about their customers.

    What a load of garbage.

    #38 10 months ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    There's kind of a big shift happening right now with companies pushing SaaS (Software as a service) subscription models. It's more profitable for them to have a continuous revenue stream, rather than a one-and-done approach to a sale. Personally, I don't like this approach since this means someone else has control over something I bought.

    Agree that this model is spreading, and in many of the wrong places. SaaS, though, is usually *no* up-front cost in exchange for a subscription fee - which can be a really nice pay-per-use model. It doesn't carry over well to a physical device that you need to buy, since the up-front cost usually isn't defrayed like it ought to be in exchange for ongoing subscription fees.

    The language about mods in Stern's EULA is also concerning to me. I've seen some very, very creative improvements to games, from both a visual and mechanical perspective from mod makers. For example, Matt's switch mod for The Shadow solves a very real design problem in the game - I'd hate to see a manufacturer either go after those people or discourage them with the looming threat of litigation...

    #39 10 months ago

    So what.

    #40 10 months ago

    I don't this is not what you guys are thinking it's about, I bet it's about DLC content, pay to play stuff...This is about someone paying for DLC and then sharing it with others.

    #41 10 months ago

    dont promote stern products. let them spend on marketing.

    #42 10 months ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    It's a reaction to the RIAA cracking down on twitch and live streaming in general.
    Technically, streaming copyrighted music to the internet is a public performance, and needs to be licensed.
    Yeah, it sucks since all you want to do is share what you like, but them's the breaks. Copyright enforcement technology has caught up to what people are actually doing, and what people were doing has grown big enough to take the notice of copyright holders.
    Until licensing becomes a simple process of a few mouse clicks, the friction between copyright holders and average people just using the internet is going to be present.

    yes, but stern is not part of the decision or enablement for you to take a camera and point it at your game and stream it. For Stern to make such a statement in the product's EULA is insane.

    #43 10 months ago
    Quoted from attack7:

    If the RIAA are the ones cracking down, why is Stern the able to grant written permission?
    I assume that for their own IP, if they were to do a truly original unlicensed game, they'd be the ones granting permission.
    But if, as an example, some streamer asks if they can stream Led Zeppelin, would Stern ask the licensor on the streamer's behalf? Seems unlikely, or that the answer would be no. Or is it Stern's right to give license to do so?

    You're spot on - the statement is over reaching and pointless in many scenarios. It really only works for situations where your streaming could possibly be rolled into a Stern activity or for Stern owned or exclusively licensed content... there it makes more sense to say stern has a say to bless/grant stuff because stern may have secured some specific rights and could bring your activity under their umbrella.

    For the other scenarios you highlight stern is in no position to govern or grant permissions beyond their own.

    #44 10 months ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    yes, but stern is not part of the decision or enablement for you to take a camera and point it at your game and stream it. For Stern to make such a statement in the product's EULA is insane.

    My guess is that it was a quick blanket reaction to cover their bases.

    Yes, it is a little crazy for a seller of a product to tell you how you can or can't use the product you bought.

    However--inside that product contains copyrighted material that you don't have the right to reproduce or rebroadcast.

    Quoted from flynnibus:

    For the other scenarios you highlight stern is in no position to govern or grant permissions beyond their own.

    Well, you don't know what is included in their license agreement. They might be able to cover rebroadcast / public performance rights under certain conditions, they might not.

    Like I said earlier, some video games have that rolled into their games, so it's not an impossible scenario.

    -4
    #45 10 months ago

    I am an electrical engineer and what I read from this, aside from the restrains on streaming, is that someone is afraid that little short people in China are going to reverse engineer node boards and sell them cheap on Ebay or such. Or maybe even clever engineers in the USA could do it. Just my thoughts, but I could be way off. Some people make a living off reverse engineering products and reselling them under a generic label. It could be happening as we read this series of messages about not giving away "intellectual property", legally speaking. The thing is, it will be almost impossible to prevent it from ever happening. But, if someone is identified as the person that provided that product for reverse engineering, or participated in that effort, that person could be liable for whatever happens after that from what I read in that legal mumbo jumbo.

    #46 10 months ago
    Quoted from Lermods:

    This is probably a bit naive on my part, but Once you buy a game, isn’t it yours to do as you please, including hacking the software? You void your warranty, but what’s the issue otherwise?

    The short answer is... doesn't have to be that way. That's why you have those license agreements on all those purchases that basically say you've been given permission to use the software.. but you don't own it outright. There is also other law that tries to protect activities that people can do on their own.

    This is not limited to pure software.. this is a big issue these days with hardware+software platforms... like cars (Telsa) or equipment (John Deere has been in the news for this). People fighting for 'right to repair' where people can have software serviced where/how they would like.. not just how the company tries to limit. These are different aspects.. but it's all tied to the same core principal that you are not buying a standalone good.

    Quoted from Lermods:

    You’ve effectively paid the license fee when you buy the game. I thought the problem comes when you start doing software modifications with licensed clips or sounds you haven’t paid for and then offering it to others, free or not. This notion that stern could detect a change you’ve made and somehow disable your game doesn’t seem right.
    What would stop someone from instead of sharing their revised code to telling others how to do it themselves?

    That's exactly what you've had in the past... pinball browser macros/etc try to get around the idea of distributing licensed content by instead just distributing the scripts that say when/how content (you supply) would be used. But Stern is trying to ban even that kind of behavior with the language in this EULA.

    In theory 'you agreed to these terms' with your purchase.. but that's another area where this is BS because they are trying to apply new terms and limits after the sale. They would only be able to do so on new things you agree to use (like a new release).

    Because you 'agreed' to these limits, that's their first stance... but consumer rights advocates have been fighting for years that these terms are not in good faith, it's basically a forced consent, and there should be intrinsic rights consumers should have. Like the right to fix their own stuff, etc.

    #47 10 months ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    My guess is that it was a quick blanket reaction to cover their bases.
    Yes, it is a little crazy for a seller of a product to tell you how you can or can't use the product you bought.
    However--inside that product contains copyrighted material that you don't have the right to reproduce or rebroadcast.

    Yes, but the restrictions on what you can do there are already covered by law that is existing and in force. There is no reason for it to be part of the EULA to try to enforce that.

    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    Well, you don't know what is included in their license agreement. They might be able to cover rebroadcast / public performance rights under certain conditions, they might not.
    Like I said earlier, some video games have that rolled into their games, so it's not an impossible scenario.

    The point was (as not everyone maybe aware), a licensee can't grant permissions they themselves don't have. Sure Stern may secure some rights for their own events/activities/marketing/etc... but do you really think "keep shipping those bad coil stops" Stern is gonna pre-emptively secure and pay for rights so OTHERS can do stuff that isn't really a Stern activity? I don't see it happening.

    It's a blanket attempt to ban all rebroadcasting that isn't Stern associated activity.

    #48 10 months ago

    Sounds like Tesla crap.

    #49 10 months ago

    The way I read it, they are just literally covering themselves from being sued after someone streaming a game get's a DMCA takedown/offense. Buying the game does not give you the proper license to share the game's licensed IP. Are they going to enforce it? NO. Like I said, I believe this is just a precaution. I could be wrong though. Only time will tell.

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    #50 10 months ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    It's a blanket attempt to ban all rebroadcasting that isn't Stern associated activity.

    Imo, it isn't some evil plot on Stern's part to try to close down other streamers. It is to Stern's benefit to have as many people as possible streaming their pins. I agree with Owl, it reads like a "cover your ass" document to me. If the RIAA or whomever comes after Stern because someone is streaming Led Zep, or AC/DC or whatever, Stern can point to their EULA and say "we didn't give them permission, not our fault".

    Same with blocking tools like pinbrowser. Someone replacing songs in the pin for use in their own home, probably no one cares. Someone replacing the songs and then streaming the pin, or selling remix packages on the interwebz could get Stern into real trouble if a licensor feels they are responsible.

    Stern has to show they are making a good faith effort to protect the licenses they are paying for, otherwise the licensors won't be granting them licenses.

    Basically I read as more of a shield than a sword, but I guess we will see.

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