New! Dark mode!

Browsing Pinside at night? Getting tired of all the white? Switch to dark mode using the button in the top right (or CTRL-B)!

(Topic ID: 246846)

Stern Quicksilver problem


By Flynnyfalcon

1 year ago



Topic Stats

  • 36 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by dothedoo
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 3 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

Quicksilver_Solenoid_Driver_Schematic.jpg
QuickSilver_Solenoids.jpg
Screen Shot 2019-07-26 at 10.50.20 PM (resized).png

#1 1 year ago

Hi, I added this to the Early Stern Club thread but was advised to try a thread on its own... so here it is...

So I’m in discussion with my tech guy trying to solve my issue, but thought I’d also ask the considerable brains trust on here, hoping it’ll speed things up.

I bought a Quicksilver a few weeks back, it didn’t boot up but was in overall decent condition. I sent all the boards off for a check over/repair and replaced the rectifier board with a new one.
When I bought my QS, the LED on the MPU would stay on with no blinks, no sound, no game start, displays would partly work but not really and most GI and insert lighting was working.
I reinstalled the repaired and “tested ok” boards yesterday. Upon turning it back on for the first time, it shut down my Funhouse which was being played by my son at the time (it’s powered by the same power point). Fuse F6 on the rectifier board was cooked, luckily no damage done to FH. I replaced the fuse and turned QS on again with no success. The LED remained on with no blinks, the displays showed nothing and no sounds other than the occasional noise outburst when turning it on. The fuse went on to blow a couple more times before I gave up. The fuse (besides when I first turned it on) didn’t blow straight away, possibly after a minute or 2 or 5.
I double checked all the wiring and it appears to be good. The rectifier board was partly in kit form. I installed this first with the unrepaired boards and this didn’t blow any fuses.

Some basic research has me thinking the in-line filter may be stuffed, especially given Funhouse copped a mouthful.

Any thoughts on what the issue could be?

#2 1 year ago

Do you know any history on the game? Was it working recently? Are the transformer jumpers set for the correct voltage?

Since F6 is the main fuse the problem could be anywhere.

Start with only J2 connected on the rectifier board. Test voltages and make sure they are correct. It’s ok if they read a little high. If F6 doesn’t blow after a few minutes go on to next step, otherwise you have a problem with the rectifier board.

Plug playfield connector into J1 on rectifier. Again, if F6 doesn’t blow after a few minutes go on to next step, otherwise something is shorted on playfield.

Plug backbox connector into J3 on rectifier. Disconnect everything in backbox except J3 on solenoid driver board. If F6 doesn’t blow start plugging in the rest of the connectors one at a time (with power off of course) to narrow down the problem.

#3 1 year ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

Do you know any history on the game? Was it working recently? Are the transformer jumpers set for the correct voltage?
Since F6 is the main fuse the problem could be anywhere.
Start with only J2 connected on the rectifier board. Test voltages and make sure they are correct. It’s ok if they read a little high. If F6 doesn’t blow after a few minutes go on to next step, otherwise you have a problem with the rectifier board.
Plug playfield connector into J1 on rectifier. Again, if F6 doesn’t blow after a few minutes go on to next step, otherwise something is shorted on playfield.
Plug backbox connector into J3 on rectifier. Disconnect everything in backbox except J3 on solenoid driver board. If F6 doesn’t blow start plugging in the rest of the connectors one at a time (with power off of course) to narrow down the problem.

Thanks DotheDoo, I’ll go over your suggestions on the weekend.

The pin was home use only for 20 years, and stopped working roughly 5 years ago. So transformer voltage (240v) would be fine. The owner (50 something female) wasn’t knowledgeable at all on pinball, but lost interest after her tech guy fixed the problem once and it came back again.

#4 1 year ago

Any chance of seeing pictures of the transformer wiring and rectifier board connectors as requested in the Quick Silver club thread?

Disconnect the game from your 240V power point.

With a good F6 fuse, measure the resistance across the two main prongs on the mains power plug of the game with the games power switch on. You should measure around 3.5 ohms from memory which is the DC resistance of the transformer. Anything close to zero ohms (the reading you get in resistance mode of your multi-meter when you touch both meter probes together) is a short and you need to find it before blowing any more fuses.

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

Any chance of seeing pictures of the transformer wiring and rectifier board connectors as requested in the Quick Silver club thread?
Disconnect the game from your 240V power point.
With a good F6 fuse, measure the resistance across the two main prongs on the mains power plug of the game with the games power switch on. You should measure around 3.5 ohms from memory which is the DC resistance of the transformer. Anything close to zero ohms (the reading you get in resistance mode of your multi-meter when you touch both meter probes together) is a short and you need to find it before blowing any more fuses.

Sadly I’m currently only getting access to QS on the weekend, but I’ll definitely follow up on the photos and your suggestions and get back to you.

#6 1 year ago

Quick update... I was with my Quicksilver briefly today and followed my techs instructions...

First thing he said to do was pull the sound board cables and voila! She boots! I play “a game”, the flippers work but no other solenoid works. Some (possibly all, hard to tell) switches seem to register, the displays now seem to work, but after a few minutes of play F6 blows again taking out the house safety switch.

I won’t get back to Quicksilver for another week, but does the above trigger any thoughts to anyone?

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from Flynnyfalcon:

the flippers work but no other solenoid works.

If flippers work but no other playfield solenoids work then check/replace the under playfield fuse. It's a 1 amp slow blow fuse usually near the flipper mechanisms.

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

If flippers work but no other playfield solenoids work then check/replace the under playfield fuse. It's a 1 amp slow blow fuse usually near the flipper mechanisms.

You da man!!

1 week later
#9 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

If flippers work but no other playfield solenoids work then check/replace the under playfield fuse. It's a 1 amp slow blow fuse usually near the flipper mechanisms.

I checked the fuse and it’s fine. So flippers work, no other solenoid does

#10 1 year ago

All coils appear to have roughly 8VAC, but only flippers are triggering.

#11 1 year ago

So I’ve replaced the power cord which seemed suspect, double checked the wiring on the sound board, turned it on and it fires up and boots. No blown fuses which is great.

Problem now however, it seems the switch matrix is all messed up: hitting a pop bumper fires the left sling (and doesn’t fire the pop bumpers). A ball in the trough doesn’t push the ball to the shooter lane, but it will Fire the right drop targets. Hitting the right sling also fires the right drop targets, plus I’m sure a few other things.

Could this be a dip switch issue on the MPU? Any thoughts?

I sent the same questions to my board repairer for his opinion. The boards were all recently repaired and given the a-ok.

#12 1 year ago
Quoted from Flynnyfalcon:

So I’ve replaced the power cord which seemed suspect, double checked the wiring on the sound board, turned it on and it fires up and boots. No blown fuses which is great.
Problem now however, it seems the switch matrix is all messed up: hitting a pop bumper fires the left sling (and doesn’t fire the pop bumpers). A ball in the trough doesn’t push the ball to the shooter lane, but it will Fire the right drop targets. Hitting the right sling also fires the right drop targets, plus I’m sure a few other things.
Could this be a dip switch issue on the MPU? Any thoughts?
I sent the same questions to my board repairer for his opinion. The boards were all recently repaired and given the a-ok.

I don't know if will help you any but, your 3 pops, both left and right slings, the left lower stand up target, the left middle S.U. Target, and the left top S.U. target are all on the same circuit. They all get their power from the brown/white wire at A4-J2-2. MPU connector J2 pin 2.

You can see this in column "B". So, what happens when you manually activate the left sling, or when you activate a SU target?

Look at column "E". Your out-hole (not trough--think out-hole) is on the same yellow/red wire as your outlanes and inlanes, the roll over button, and some other switches. Do all of the other items on the Y/R wire work when activated? If so, you out-hole switch may be dirty or out of adjustment. But I think this is the QS that sat for a long time. Try cleaning your out-hole switch contacts with a business card.

These old Sterns are not that complicated (although I still have much to learn). You are not that far from success.

Screen Shot 2019-07-26 at 10.50.20 PM (resized).png

#13 1 year ago

If you haven't already cut one leg off of all the switch pancake capacitors and remove them from the matrix. If the problem is still happening take a look at the coin door as the yellow-red wire is constantly hacked up. Make sure that there is no metal on metal contact anywhere. If no luck there do a diode test on the yellow-red wire matrix like cottonm4 suggested.

#14 1 year ago

Can ask a quick question? How the hell were you lucky enough to score a Quicksilver in Australia!!! I know people that would slam their Johnson in a sliding glass door for one. Awesome find my friend!!

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

I don't know if will help you any but, your 3 pops, both left and right slings, the left lower stand up target, the left middle S.U. Target, and the left top S.U. target are all on the same circuit. They all get there power from the brown/white wire at A4-J2-2. MPU connector J2 pin 2.
You can see this in column "B". So, what happens when you manually activate the left sling, or when you activate a SU target?
Look at column "E". Your out-hole (not trough--think out-hole) is on the same yellow/red wire as your outlanes and inlanes, the roll over button, and some other switches. Do all of the other items on the Y/R wire work when activated? If so, you out-hole switch may be dirty or out of adjustment. But I think this is the QS that sat for a long time. Try cleaning your out-hole switch contacts with a business card.
These old Sterns are not that complicated (although I still have much to learn). You are not that far from success.
[quoted image]

I’m pretty darn hung over today, and a bit embarrassed that I hadn’t considered it a potential switch matrix issue. Thought it may have been a messed up ROM. I’ll properly go over what you’ve mentioned when my head clears up.

I was able to look over a few things but ran out of steam and time. Regarding column B, the left (lower, middle & upper) stand up targets all operate as per normal. Left sling when activated operates normally.

I probably looked at other things, but to be honest, it booted properly and flipped for the very first time today, so I was way too excited to hear the sounds and flip it.

#16 1 year ago
Quoted from Thrillhouse:

If you haven't already cut one leg off of all the switch pancake capacitors and remove them from the matrix. If the problem is still happening take a look at the coin door as the yellow-red wire is constantly hacked up. Make sure that there is no metal on metal contact anywhere. If no luck there do a diode test on the yellow-red wire matrix like cottonm4 suggested.

What does clipping the pancake caps leg do?

#17 1 year ago
Quoted from Frippertron:

Can ask a quick question? How the hell were you lucky enough to score a Quicksilver in Australia!!! I know people that would slam their Johnson in a sliding glass door for one. Awesome find my friend!!

Thanks Frippertron. Was completely out of the blue. Was advertised as an “arcade machine” on Australia’s version of Craigslist. The woman had owned it for 20+ years. She said she’d been absolutely smashed with calls of people wanting it. Already spent over twice the machine price buying a new playfield, plastics and other resto bits. Pretty excited to get it.

But yep, not very common at all in Australia. I know of 2 Quicksilvers in Melbourne. Classic Sterns in general aren’t too common out here. I hear they’re pretty desirable in the US.

#18 1 year ago

Looking closely at the switch matrix, row I4 (?) is possibly the culprit with both the right sling shot and the kickout hole not working. The other switches on this row I don’t recall.

It sucks not having the pin with me. Seeing it once a week is a bitch.

#19 1 year ago

Wrong solenoids firing is a classic symptom of connector issue between the mpu board and the solenoid driver board.

MPU board connector j4, and also j4 on the solenoid driver. Go into solenoid test and if you get duplicate firings on some solenoids, that's it. One of the signals is missing either because of crappy connectors or cold solder joint.

It's never a rom issue unless the completely wrong roms are in the game with this problem.

The trap to fall into is that when troubleshooting, you're say that things "look" good. This is meaningless in electronic repair. You TEST things with test equipment. Otherwise you waste a lot of time and effort, and just add to the frustration pile.

#20 1 year ago
Quoted from Flynnyfalcon:

I’m pretty darn hung over today, and a bit embarrassed that I hadn’t considered it a potential switch matrix issue. Thought it may have been a messed up ROM. I’ll properly go over what you’ve mentioned when my head clears up.
I was able to look over a few things but ran out of steam and time. Regarding column B, the left (lower, middle & upper) stand up targets all operate as per normal. Left sling when activated operates normally.
I probably looked at other things, but to be honest, it booted properly and flipped for the very first time today, so I was way too excited to hear the sounds and flip it.

Don't be embarrassed. We all do stupid stuff. I had a flipper quit working at festival and was fixing to tear everything apart to find the problem. A friend walked by and pointed out that a screw holding a flipper switch plate had backed out. It was a 30 second fix---he saved me hours of time I was going to waste.

Quoted from Flynnyfalcon:

What does clipping the pancake caps leg do?

Caps can short out. Cut one leg close to the solder joint or desolder. If the problem stops you know what you have to do.

Quoted from Flynnyfalcon:

Was advertised as an “arcade machine” on Australia’s version of Craigslist.

Go ahead and call it Gumtree. We'll figure it out. That's a cool name for a buy/sell website.

Quoted from Flynnyfalcon:

Looking closely at the switch matrix, row I4 (?) is possibly the culprit with both the right sling shot and the kickout hole not working. The other switches on this row I don’t recall.
It sucks not having the pin with me. Seeing it once a week is a bitch.

Both those switches share a common W-G wire. You can jumper the W-G from a switch that is working and see it if is just a wiring issue. I had a flipper go dead on my Seawitch in the middle of a spirited game. Just instant dead. The powered wire from the lower flipper to the upper flipper showed continuity but would not power the flipper. the fix was to solder a jump wire from the lower coil to the upper coil. The jump wire will stay there until I do a restore with a Greatwich play field.

NOTE: CAUTION: DANGER: Say you have a pop bumper quit working. DO NOT cross jump a working pop coil to a dead pop coil unless you first cut the wire on the dead pop coil. I did a jump like that and blew out both pop transistors on the driver board.

1 week later
#21 1 year ago

So spent some time on Quicksilver today. Some have mentioned wiring around the coin door may be shorting giving me the switching/solenoid issue, I unplugged the door and the issue is still there.

I spoke with my tech, who though J3 and J4 wiring on the Driver board is known to give problems. I looked over the wiring, visually it looks ok, I gave it a few wiggles and now no playfield solenoid works other than the flippers. Checked the under playfield fuse and it still ok.

Prior to the solenoids not working, pop bumpers switches were firing the left sling, the left sling switch was firing the right drop targets, the left saucer doesn't eject, the outhole doesn't eject, and possibly a couple of other things which I may have forgotten.

I seem to be going around in circles a little.

There is obviously a problem on row B of the switch matrix. I have followed the associated wire and it appears ok. Can anyone offer their method for correctly testing where the problem lies? Thanks in advance for any help.

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from Flynnyfalcon:

So spent some time on Quicksilver today. Some have mentioned wiring around the coin door may be shorting giving me the switching/solenoid issue, I unplugged the door and the issue is still there.
I spoke with my tech, who though J3 and J4 wiring on the Driver board is known to give problems. I looked over the wiring, visually it looks ok, I gave it a few wiggles and now no playfield solenoid works other than the flippers. Checked the under playfield fuse and it still ok.
Prior to the solenoids not working, pop bumpers switches were firing the left sling, the left sling switch was firing the right drop targets, the left saucer doesn't eject, the outhole doesn't eject, and possibly a couple of other things which I may have forgotten.
I seem to be going around in circles a little.
There is obviously a problem on row B of the switch matrix. I have followed the associated wire and it appears ok. Can anyone offer their method for correctly testing where the problem lies? Thanks in advance for any help.

Try repinning the wire that is displaying problems.

#23 1 year ago

Repin connector J4 on the SDB and J4 on the MPU. Those wires carry the signals that tell the SDB which solenoid to fire.

#24 1 year ago

So I had a small amount of time this arvo, checked the diagnostics, every switch works correctly as per the manual. When it goes through the solenoid test, the left sling fires 2/3 times then the right drop target fires 2/3 times. No other solenoid fires.

Unsure how/if it’s related, but the small solenoid on the coin door had a wire cut. The manual didn’t say what the coil is for, does anyone know? I’ve reconnected it and whether it’s coincidental, suddenly the pop bumpers and a few other solenoids fired. Unsure as to how many as they only worked briefly. Sadly it’s again back to how it was last week.

Pop bumpers fire the left sling
Left sling fires the left sling
Right sling fires the top right drop target
Top right drop targets work and reset
Middle drop targets when all down do not reset, but instead reset the top right drop targets
Saucer does not fire
Outhole does not fire

Booo

I’m yet to do any re-pinning but that is probably next.

#25 1 year ago

The diagnostics...

#26 1 year ago

Do the diagnostics trigger anything for anyone?

#27 1 year ago
Quoted from Flynnyfalcon:

Do the diagnostics trigger anything for anyone?

Yeah, you're missing signals on the J4 connector, like I posted previously. You've got some duplicate firings on the solenoid test, which is a CLASSIC symptom of this problem.

#28 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

Yeah, you're missing signals on the J4 connector, like I posted previously. You've got some duplicate firings on the solenoid test, which is a CLASSIC symptom of this problem.

Thanks for confirming. I don’t believe I’ve seen these narrow connectors locally so was hoping it wouldn’t be that. Looks like it’s time for a big Marcos order.

#29 1 year ago

I'm going to third what @slochar and @dothedoo already mentioned about needing to reterminate the J4 connectors at the MPU board and solenoid driver board.

You only need to replace the wire crimp terminals and there's no need to order them from Marcos. Just re-use the connector housings. You can get the crimp terminals needed from one of your local hobbly electronics stores:
https://www.jaycar.com.au/10-pin-0-1-header-with-crimp-pins-2-54-pitch/p/HM3410

Excuse me for getting technical, but the following shows you're having a problem with two wire connections over those J4 connectors.

There's four momentary solenoid select signals from the MPU board to the Solenoid Driver Board (SDB). These are signals PB0, PB1, PB2 and PB3 which come from pins 4, 3, 2, 1 respectively on J4 of the MPU board and go to pins 6, 5, 4, 3 respectively at J4 of the SDB.
From the SDB schematic, below are the four PB0, PB1, PB2 and PB3 signal states and which solenoids the combination of states select. The four digits in the left column are binary numbers - "0" means zero volts, "1" means 5 volts.

Two of these four signals are not reaching the SDB circuit. The solenoids listed on the left are what should activate, the solenoids on the right are what you are getting.
It shows that both PB0 and PB1 signals are not getting from the MPU board to the SDB and the SDB is always seeing PB0 and PB1 as a "1". These are a blue-yellow and a blue-red wire from MPU J4 pin 4 and 3 to the SDB J4 pin 6 and 5 respectively.
.
QuickSilver_Solenoids.jpg

#30 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

I'm going to third what @slochar and @dothedoo already mentioned about needing to reterminate the J4 connectors at the MPU board and solenoid driver board.
You only need to replace the wire crimp terminals and there's no need to order them from Marcos. Just re-use the connector housings. You can get the crimp terminals needed from one of your local hobbly electronics stores:
https://www.jaycar.com.au/10-pin-0-1-header-with-crimp-pins-2-54-pitch/p/HM3410
Excuse me for getting technical, but the following shows you're having a problem with two wire connections over those J4 connectors.
There's four momentary solenoid select signals from the MPU board to the Solenoid Driver Board (SDB). These are signals PB0, PB1, PB2 and PB3 which come from pins 4, 3, 2, 1 respectively on J4 of the MPU board and go to pins 6, 5, 4, 3 respectively at J4 of the SDB.
From the SDB schematic, below are the four PB0, PB1, PB2 and PB3 signal states and which solenoids the combination of states select. The four digits in the left column are binary numbers - "0" means zero volts, "1" means 5 volts.
Two of these four signals are not reaching the SDB circuit. The solenoids listed on the left are what should activate, the solenoids on the right are what you are getting.
It shows that both PB0 and PB1 signals are not getting from the MPU board to the SDB and the SDB is always seeing PB0 and PB1 as a "1". These are a blue-yellow and a blue-red wire from MPU J4 pin 4 and 3 to the SDB J4 pin 6 and 5 respectively.
.
[quoted image]

Hey Quench, big thank you for chiming in. What you've written makes sense to me, thanks for taking to the time to fully explain yourself. Without knowing the ins and outs of how a pin works, it can be difficult to understand why a problem is and how to attack it. I've been lucky in the past, that most issues have been at the end of the line, so easily traced to a faulty switch, cold solder, bad coil etc and easily resolved.

Can I ask where you got the solenoid table from? I've never seen it laid out in binary like that and can now understand why my QS diagnostics behaves as it does.

Sadly I'm in the difficult position that I only get access to my Quicksilver once a week for an hour or two. I'll pick up some crimp terminals and redo the wires in question. Thank you again.

#31 1 year ago
Quoted from Flynnyfalcon:

Sadly I'm in the difficult position that I only get access to my Quicksilver once a week for an hour or two.

A situation you need to rectify quickly.

#32 1 year ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

A situation you need to rectify quickly.

You are not wrong. It’s killing me, I’m watching Quicksilver streams and YouTube clips at night to tie me over

#33 1 year ago

Actually, you're better off ordering the crimp terminals from RS Components as they're real Molex product. Free next business day delivery to your door pending stock availability. [Edit] it looks like they have local stock.

This is a 100 pack, you'll need them as it's likely you'll have to do other connectors at some point:
https://au.rs-online.com/web/p/pcb-connector-contacts/1729178/
.
If you don't have access to a crimping tool, look into getting one.
.

Quoted from Flynnyfalcon:

Can I ask where you got the solenoid table from? I've never seen it laid out in binary like that and can now understand why my QS diagnostics behaves as it does.

It was extrapolated from the Quick Silver solenoid driver board schematic. See below:

Quicksilver_Solenoid_Driver_Schematic.jpg

#34 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

Actually, you're better off ordering the crimp terminals from RS Components as they're real Molex product. Free next business day delivery to your door pending stock availability. [Edit] it looks like they have local stock.
This is a 100 pack, you'll need them as it's likely you'll have to do other connectors at some point:
https://au.rs-online.com/web/p/pcb-connector-contacts/1729178/
.
If you don't have access to a crimping tool, look into getting one.
.

It was extrapolated from the Quick Silver solenoid driver board schematic. See below:
[quoted image]

Damn... my brain needs some training/re-training

How good are you, finding a local (to me) parts supplier from the other side of the world, massive bonus points for you today quench I redid the Rectifier board cabling a few weeks ago using just some pliers, a pita! So yep, i think it's time to get the right tool. Really appreciate you going to such lengths Quench. Will give an update next weekend when my next chance to tinker happens.

#35 1 year ago

Big thanks to quench, cottonm4 and everyone else who helped with my QS problem. It turns out that the J4 connector on the MPU was to blame, I’m yet to fix it, but some wiggling, prodding and pulling of the wires seems to have confirmed the location.

I’ll repin the connector when I get the chance, but my Quicksilver played for the first time. It ain’t perfect, but it played. So awesome!!!

#36 1 year ago

That’s the most common faulty connector in the head. Those little pins get brittle and break or lose their spring due to corrosion and heat.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 149.00
$ 12.00
Electronics
Third Coast Pinball
From: $ 155.00
$ 100.00
Playfield - Protection
Beehive Pinball Co.
$ 49.99
Electronics
PinballElectronics.com
$ 7.00

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside