um... that's pps, not stern's call, bro

SMH......

Flipper mechs have bee stripping out since the 70s.

But I do have an AC/DC, so I can take a flipper mech to work and compare it to a mech from WPT and see if there has been a change in metal hardness. The thickness is the same.

Excellent!

I'm glad to hear quality improved on a Stern product.

Every time I see an unrestored Shadow, my toes curl.

I think he's referring to the coil stops (for half of that anyway)

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-coil-stops-raining-gold-metal-dust

Things I look at cost cutting.

pegs vs rails
screened cabs vs decaled ones
quality of materials ( not a biggie, but the lock down receiver and other brackets feel thinner ) the brass colored metals felt high quality
witholding spinners from pro models
non mirrored LE backglass

This really isn't a deal breaker for me, but when prices keep rising, it's sad to see quality (or perceived quality) go down.

That was a bad batch from a while ago.

I'm not seeing that on KISS.

Even if I did, it's a $2 replacement part (and you can even use the $1 B/W stops if you want to).

You can't ask for examples of shitty quality, then just make excuses for them Vid. A bad batch of coil stops, like in my machine, is a quality issue X2. I'm not crying over the stops or anything, but you asked for examples, so accept them please.

I don't think it's acceptable for the customer (who pays $6500+) to have to pay anything at all to replace a part that has failed in such short order. If I absolutely had to, I would go with the $1 Williams style stops, as I've never had an issue with these (although they are aftermarket). The thing is, we really don't know if it was just a bad batch or not. With other past metal related issues (low quality balls, hardware brackets) I wouldn't be surprised if it happened again.

Lockbar gone...
Aprons..
Stern would love to preach to you on how much Spike reduced components in the system and is better.. yet that improvement in COGs went where??
Crappy driver transistors
Skimping on QC (some of the cabinets that have been shipped have been clearly 'we don't care' checks)

And that's just with 30 seconds of thought...

It's complete bullshit to say that the only cost cutting change has been the pegs. The metal back box, the infernal decals, the lock down bar, the flimsy legs are all good things....sure. But the one that really gets me riled up is when were supposed to believe the relocation of the power button is a good thing. Utter nonesense. Just about half my collection is Stern games and I can see and feel the difference between the older ones and the newer games in my collection.

Oh one more thing for the record I'm in my forties...and god bless all the old farts trying to hold the line against these bean counters.

Every time I see an unrestored Shadow, my toes curl.

??????

LOL, Having a bad batch of something is completely different than "quality going down the drain, exponentially".

I've had bad batches of Williams stops.

I've had whole batches of Bally aftermarket stops that magnetized within weeks of installation.

Of course it will happen again.

It's been happening for the last 50 years of pinball, and it will happen in the next 50.

I've never owned a NIB but I have played some right out of the box at a location near me. In my experience stern had a few games (TF/AV) that had some issues that made it feel cheapish to me. In general though the newer games I've played have felt fine. Part of it is likely that in this day and age any one who has an issue or needs to do adjustments will post it everywhere they can on the internet where as back in the 80s/90s ops fixed issues out of the box themselves and didn't have any where to post it.

The decals on most Shadows suck ass.

stupid.jpg

Nope. You mentioned this in other posts. You're wrong. SPIKE is not about cost cutting. SPIKE is about bringing Stern's pinball games out of the 90's.

Anyone have a pic of these pegs on a Pro? When did that start? Curious.

Like 5 years ago, and Pinsiders have been acting like someone smothered their kitten ever since.

Apart from things been mentioned, it bugs me that on GOT you can see 2 blinding led bulbs through the inserts.

Looks cheap, its way too bright, but Gary always says, the brighter the game, the better it earns so there is the logic!

And the pop bumper bulbs that stick out the top look awful. Hopefully they are being phased out.

But the games do play great

Really? Why are they still using DMD's then 3 games into using Spike? Surely they could have gone to an LCD by now for the primary display.

In the meantime they no longer have to pay for multiple boards and consolidated much of the hardware down to one board which I'm sure is saving them a big chunk of change across hundreds of games. Is that savings being passed onto the consumer in terms of more game play features, and more code updates? Nope. Since implementing Spike Stern's past three titles WWE, KISS and GOT seem more stripped down compared to previous games.

With each title Stern doesn't put an LCD in they put off the animation and programming costs of using an LCD...hence the hidden price increase. It's time to innovate. Actually, using an LCD isn't even innovating at this point but rather just getting with the times in 2015.

... through modern components, modern build techniques, a reduced BOM, and enabling next generation capabilities.

There is no denying Spike's ambition to reduce COGs and a simplified game construction. Those are objectives which serve to drive Stern's costs down.

If you guys would quit buying non-LCD games and stick with only buying WOZs, Stern would be forced to move down to making LCD pins.

It's your fault.

Regardless of any quality concerns, there definitely isn't anything being added to justify their cost increases. Other than higher profit margins.

I actually think TWD pro is a reaosnably good deal, considering prices of other pins. The only thing I felt is flimsy are the legs. The machine moves a lot more than my other Sterns.

Decals coming off and problems like that aint fun off course. But the only real thing what has hurt my love for stern is that they are custcotting on gameplay elements too.

Nowadays on a stern pinball standard pinballfeatures like spinners and drop targets are seen as extras. Instead of features that always should be in, on any pinball game.

Now they have taken this so far that on some pros you only have a spinner and a drop target and thats it. It is even seen on the commercial flyers; woooooo this pro has drop targets! Amazing! .......

Add some camouflaged standup targets and there you go. Another cheap ass Stern pro lay out, for only 6 thousand euro..

Now... 15 years ago, they could get away with it. No competition, at all. But i cant believe they are still getting away with it if you look at the competition, which shockingly already are lightyears ahead looking at the end products.

Only thing what is keeping stern alive atm is their production proces. But if the other companies step up on that department... Who is gonne buy Stern pinballs than? Only the few who got to have a specific themed pinball.

The rest will spend their money on other pins who do look like its 2016.

And oh man.... Can you imagine if Stern did make pins like woz, hobbit and tbl... That sort of quality pins, 2 or 3 a year... Than they could use another new factory, twice as big.

Which company is going to start selling $5000 machines? Stern has no competition when it comes to price.

Well, I already explained it you in the other thread where you made a similar post, but what the hell.

The SPIKE system itself can be ready to go before Stern is ready to transition to a LCD. HD animations take time and new talent to design them. No reason not to roll out SPIKE ahead of the LCD screen. They are not mutually inclusive.

They may or may not be a side effect, but not the primary purpose of SPIKE.

I guess I haven't seen the inside of a Pro in the last 5 years. I'm all Premium.

JJP isn't any better either in my opinion. Weak flippers come to mind on both titles that I have played and they are even more expensive.

A goody, a semantics argument; how fun.

A 'bad batch' and systemic/pervasive 'quality issues' are differentiated by much more than semantics.

How about a cargument instead?

Ford had a bad batch of tires from Firestone.

The resulting tire recall did not stop the F150 from being rated the highest quality vehicle that year.

"Ahh, I see........."

One! You're one premium.

I'm exposed to more pinball than I own, and my local arcade is Premium or LE on newer Sterns.

I've been to the unknown arcade! It's awesome!

Ah I see what you guys are saying
My thinking was more of not noticing a quality issue like a "bad batch" of something speaks to bad quality control. But you don't so that's cool; maybe my thinking is too semantical, or anti-semantical as the case may be?
I'm pretty happy with both my Sterns.

Correct. Leaky/poor quality control and systemic quality issues are two completely different beasts.

It's the difference between vw engineering their cars to cheat emissions testing and vw receiving bad exhaust systems and inadvertantly shipping some cars with them.

Loving the discussion. Thanks to all.

What machines don't have lockdown bars? If you mean the clasps, I don't think that is a bad change. Just cause something changes doesn't mean it's cheapened. The clasps hold the lockdown bar on tighter.

They've actually improved their transistors moving from stl20 to stl40s rated at more than irl540n.

wrong

I think you have the logic reversed here. Or at least you're missing exactly one half of every transaction - the buyer.

So, by this same logic, one must conclude that pinball BUYERS have become dumber on the last few years.
They are inexplicably paying MORE for LESS.

<---- btw Im also equally pissed that I can't buy a brand new car for $9,000 anymore... WTF!?!?!?!!?!?!?

Can you please explain to me how this was a good move with well thought out intentions for anyone except Stern, especially as the price continues to go up every year? Sure makes it hard to pull the PF completely out and flat when servicing something on the PF....

Just want to hear your thoughts/logic on this one.

It's wrong that I don't think this is a bad change? Then tell me, what do I think?

True

Of course Stern quality has changed over time. All manufacturing strives to produce the same or better product at a lower cost or with more efficiency.

To bring the Carguement into play: Can you honestly tell me any car produced today that feels as "solid" and as good quality as one that was produced 30 years ago? A Mercedes/Ford/Toyota today, for example, feels "lightweight" and "plasticy" compared to one of 30 years ago. The metal is thiner, the leather feels thinner, there is more plastic used. The bumper bars can not be repaired and are instead replaced.

The prices have not dropped, yet most people would prefer to drive a Mercedes from today rather than one 30 years old? The current models are significantly more fuel efficient, faster, have better handling, are safer and are generally more technologically advanced.

So to the Stern appologists - yes, Stern has cut manufacturing costs and a Stern today feels "cheaper" than in the past. I personally dont think you can argue otherwise.

To the Stern bashers - has this really negatively affected your experience owning a Stern?

I think the biggest problem Stern has (at the moment) is that they have not used technology enough to prove that the benefits of it outweigh the reduction in material quality/cost saving measures. Nor have they used it to justify price increases. It appears to the consumer that the changes in technology are made purely with cost cutting in mind with no outweighing benefit to the consumer. The price increases have come with no material benefits attached.

So when they replace XYZ part with a cheaper one, and also increase the price, they dont have a counter argument.

The most obvious: "Yes, we replaced the slide rails with pegs and we moved the power switch, but we did give you an impressive Colour LCD display".

Lack of competition has been a major reason why this has occurred. Up until now it's been buy Stern or buy 15 + year old machine.

It's about time Stern showed us some benefits of Spike.

If you don't like the lack of features or cost cutting things like pegs, lock down, power switch location, etc then don't buy it. That's design elements not quality measures. Everyone is just complaining about the same old thing - cost vs what you get. We all want more features and less price. That's a given. If lack of a color display keeps you from buying a game then that is different than if the display goes out in a few months.

personally, I don't get the big deal with the pegs. I have games with and without them and really can't say it's ever been something that's come even close to upsetting me. The pegs and rails both do the same thing really. At first I fell for all the whining about lockdown clamps too, then I got a pro with them and they are actually better. The lockdown bar sits much more solid than before, the physical action of popping a couple clamps to lift a lock bar off is again nothing to stress about. It takes much more effort to actually remove the glass than it does to pop two stupid clamps.

Lots of people point out the 'cost of goods' for spike like it's pennies. the board might be cheaper, anyone care to take a wild guess on the development costs of it? The cost of electronics isn't solely the chips and pcb, you have to spread out the cost of designing it, testing it, new dev environments, devs with a different skill set etc etc. Think bigger than a simple nut bolt or screw. Would a painter paint your house for the cost of the paint? of course not, he has a vehicle, paintbrushes, ladders etc to pay for too in addition to himself to eat.

How do you pull a PF completely out and flat on a game like F14?

It was the 5th best selling Williams game of all time, yet no one ever cried that the playfield did not pull out (it does not pull out at all, it only pivots in place).

It does not hamper the servicing of the game .

buy pinball machines
or don't buy pinball machines
I don't really care