(Topic ID: 224726)

Stern Pro Models affect on older games for me. Am I crazy?


By Loganpinball

1 year ago



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  • Latest reply 1 year ago by vassq
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    18
    #1 1 year ago

    Just curious if I am the only one crazy to think that if Stern keeps offering really good games at the pro level am I alone in hessitating to spend over 4500 on used older games? Considering for a bit more you can get a new pro model or even really close to some used newer titles.
    Stern’s last couple are really enjoyable games for us. I hate the scoring in Star Wars, but love playing it. Iron Maiden is excellent and Dead Pool is another excellent pro level game. If they keep producing enjoyable pro models at this rate, it will affect myself in the market for games, meaning I would most likely spend my money on their newer machines over older ones. I got Dead Pool used and we love it. We have Star Wars and also love it minus the scoring. I will get Iron Maiden at one point. That is the effect Stern has had on me. Am I alone in this thought? Not bashing or trolling, really just curious if anyone shares this oppinion. Thanks.

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    #2 1 year ago

    Though Sterns latest offerings have been good, they cant recreate the magic that was the late 70-mid 80s, Sys11 era, and the 90s Golden Era of pinball.

    New isnt always better.

    #3 1 year ago
    Quoted from Loganpinball:

    Just curious if I am the only one crazy to think that if Stern keeps offering really good games at the pro level am I alone in hessitating to spend over 4500 on used older games?

    I think to some extent the monies factor in, but for me more than anything it's amount of plays & finite space.
    Let's say $5500 for a NIB Stern or a ____ W/B. unless it's a must have all timer W/B, I've probably played it 10,000 and don't really need keep playing enough to justify it.
    But yeah you could totally see how with the older titles still climbing in cost you have to weigh the options. eXpecially since now we're getting like weird titles being a shit ton of cash.

    EDIT: I can buy a Stern, play the shit out of it for a year or more, sell it at almost no loss and buy another NIB. Very hard to argue against that

    #4 1 year ago

    With Stern producing 3-4 titles a year I see the used Stern market taking a hit.I agree why would I spend close to 5k for a used gb,got,im,sm.......when I can get the newest title for well under 6k.I predict 4k will become the norm for a used stern in the near future.

    #5 1 year ago

    I prefer to buy older games because the code is done. Just picked up a AC/DC NIB.

    #6 1 year ago

    I agree on the magic part of those classic games. I understand that completely. I know newer isn’t better thats not what I meant. Dead Pool is amazingly fun and a beautifull machine for the price. In the past year I sold or traded Tron, Medieval Madness and a Indiana Jones. I got a Williams Indiana Jones years ago for $3800 in great shape. Its just crazy how much they command now. I did get it again in a trade for the hobbit a few months ago. I think Puffdanny said what I was trying to say better than i could in his post. I agree that if they keep putting good machines out in the market it just changes where I would spend my money. I have had alot of the classics and they are great for a reason. I would say that anything thats not a must have classic at that price point of 4500 or above is going to be something I no longer pursue if Stern Pros are as good as the ones I mentioned.

    #8 1 year ago

    I’ve had a few of the latest and greatest pins. I played them and sold them. I’m going back to play some of the 90s pins. It was really hard to justify having one $9000 game vs having 3 90s era pins or 2 stern pros. I’m also looking to open my arcade and need quantity over quality. I love JJP pins but hard to beat the classics. Stern satisfies that middle ground- lots of great stern pins in the $4000-5000 range

    #9 1 year ago

    Jjp is another deal completely. Those prices are just crazy. Theres no arguement there Brian. Good luck on your venture..

    #10 1 year ago
    Quoted from FatPanda:

    Though Sterns latest offerings have been good, they cant recreate the magic that was the late 70-mid 80s, Sys11 era, and the 90s Golden Era of pinball.
    New isnt always better.

    Agreed, but is that "magic" worth 4.5k? I think that's the real question.

    Personally, I'm probably around 3k max before buying new makes more sense. Beyond that, it would have to be a super grail pin.

    Ymmv.

    #11 1 year ago
    Quoted from Loganpinball:

    Just curious if I am the only one crazy to think that if Stern keeps offering really good games at the pro level am I alone in hessitating to spend over 4500 on used older games? Considering for a bit more you can get a new pro model or even really close to some used newer titles.
    Stern’s last couple are really enjoyable games for us. I hate the scoring in Star Wars, but love playing it. Iron Maiden is excellent and Dead Pool is another excellent pro level game. If they keep producing enjoyable pro models at this rate, it will affect myself in the market for games, meaning I would most likely spend my money on their newer machines over older ones. I got Dead Pool used and we love it. We have Star Wars and also love it minus the scoring. I will get Iron Maiden at one point. That is the effect Stern has had on me. Am I alone in this thought? Not bashing or trolling, really just curious if anyone shares this oppinion. Thanks.
    [quoted image]

    You are crazy! Who would buy a Deadpool and Starwars pro.

    My last to purchases.

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    #12 1 year ago
    Quoted from Loganpinball:

    I got Dead Pool used and we love it.

    Good thing pinball companies don't have 30 day return policies.

    #13 1 year ago

    I don’t see myself ever buying another DMD game

    #14 1 year ago

    How do u find a used Deadpool? The first game off of the line can't be a month old yet!

    #15 1 year ago

    A fellow pinsider had it for a few days and did not like it. I was lucky enough to be first to contact him. I have bought from him in the past and hes a great seller and a nice guy. He just did not like it. I have no idea why? Its great.

    #16 1 year ago

    HUO Stern Pros are a great value.

    They are as fun as hell to play. Rules are good on them. You get a chance to sit back and see how code goes. They are available on the market. Most do well on location. Stern makes four of them a year?! They hold their value well. Since they are so new they are easy to buy because condition is usually not a factor and Stern has good warranties on their games.

    Now older games are fun also. The prices have gone up and a large group have gotten close to the Price of Stern Pros and some higher. Prices have gone up, but they really do hold their value very well and always have good demand.

    Either way you go newer or older you will have a lot of fun with these games and good resale down the road.

    #17 1 year ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    I think to some extent the monies factor in, but for me more than anything it's amount of plays & finite space.
    Let's say $5500 for a NIB Stern or a ___ W/B. unless it's a must have all timer W/B, I've probably played it 10,000 and don't really need keep playing enough to justify it.
    But yeah you could totally see how with the older titles still climbing in cost you have to weigh the options. eXpecially since now we're getting like weird titles being a shit ton of cash.
    EDIT: I can buy a Stern, play the shit out of it for a year or more, sell it at almost no loss and buy another NIB. Very hard to argue against that

    Fully agree w/this take. Tough to argue against it.

    #18 1 year ago
    Quoted from kms_pinball:

    How do u find a used Deadpool? The first game off of the line can't be a month old yet!

    Exactly what I was thinking!!

    #19 1 year ago

    I am with you .. I had several pin of the 90 and restored, in addition to the high prices the problem of the breakdowns.Since I bought the first stern I did not go back to buy a pin of the 90. For me they are more fun fast and reliable as electronic ... everyone has their preferences .... and mine is with new machines

    #20 1 year ago
    Quoted from Loganpinball:

    A fellow pinsider had it for a few days and did not like it. I was lucky enough to be first to contact him. I have bought from him in the past and hes a great seller and a nice guy. He just did not like it. I have no idea why? Its great.

    I bet I know who dat was..... and yes he is a good guy from what I hear.

    #21 1 year ago

    I don't like to admit it, but of all my games, my GB pro gets played at least two games a day, every day. None of my other machines come close to that. But I do appreciate the simplicity sometimes when I do get to play them.

    #22 1 year ago

    I love me some Stern Pro games.

    #23 1 year ago

    Older games have basically doubled in cost over the past 6-7 years which makes Stern Pros a better value in comparison. My limit on old games is $3500. Anything more than that and I'll save a bit more and get a Stern. The software and replay value is just better on a Stern and they don't require much maintenance and are pretty trouble free.

    The other side of it is that I've been collecting for 15 years and have owned or played most of the 90s games to death so Stern Pros have more appeal to me in the $4k-$5k market.

    #24 1 year ago
    Quoted from MikeS:

    Older games have basically doubled in cost over the past 6-7 years

    --I needed to clarify this--

    New Stern's RETAIL PRICES have gone up 40-60% over the last 7 years as well, observing the pro/prem/LE business model. (Not "cost")

    I don't know where the "breaking point" is for buying an older machine vs. a new Stern.

    I feel most buyers will always go with their priorities. If you are looking for reliability at home, or looking to put a game on location, you almost have to go with a Stern pro. If you can work on games yourself, like tinkering, or just want to play the game you did 30 years ago, you might prefer older machines.

    The money factor is almost not an argument these days. There are pins from the 80s that are $600-$6000 and pins from the 90's-2010's that are $1500-$12,000. The higher priced ones are that way because of availability. With vintage pins, the lower priced ones are that way because they are either trashed, broken, or just not very good games. $500-$1000 pins from the 70s-80s are that price for a reason.

    As a generalization, the newer pins are going to be much higher priced for other reasons. The BIGGEST reason would be the game's FEATURES and what is there for the player to actually experience in a few games... the more the better. It's actually harder to make a "timeless" game hold up in the current sea of competing modern pinball features.

    You don't really need to compare a game from 1982ish with a game from 2012ish. The OLDER games are priced the way they are because of supply and demand.

    The newer games are priced the way they are because of MANUFACTURING with the prices being set at 5-8ish+. They are not really PRICED by features. It seems that only the DEMAND for individual modern pinball machines is swayed by features or to a lesser extent, "completeness". That is usually not the case with vintage/older machines other than maybe a few one off machines like Safecracker or Banzai Run.

    So for me, 1-2K seems like a comfortable spot to be for a vintage machine that may need some fixing up to make great.
    It seems the older games are currently about a (three to 1) or (four to 1) ratio to a newer Stern. THAT ratio actually hasn't changed much over the last 15 years.

    One closing observation. Since the year 2000, the price of a used, nice condition TAF has always been about the same cost as a newly manufactured Stern Pro-Stern Premium. (Observable at the Boston pinball selling archive.) This is more important than you think because even if you hate TAF, it sets the standard for what is considered a timeless, classic, and collectible pinball machine.

    #25 1 year ago
    Quoted from snyper2099:

    The newer games are priced the way they are because of MANUFACTURING with the prices being set at 5-8ish+.

    This is not correct. They are priced based on what the market will bear, which is called demand. Manufacturing costs sets the floor price of a product. I don't think they are priced at the floor right now.

    Quoted from snyper2099:

    New Sterns have gone up 40-60% as well

    The manufacturing costs have not grown near this rate over the same time frame, so this is a contradiction to the comment above. The recent price increases have nothing to do with manufacturing price increases, but with what the market will bear. Premium and LE price differences from pros are almost all profit margin, not manufacturing.

    #26 1 year ago

    I don't know i still think there is a nice amount of people that want older games including me I bought iron maiden because I thought it was a really good game. I just recently had the choice of Deadpool or Sopranos once I played Deadpool I went with sopranos I feel like the older games are more sturdier and got more toys and gimmicks.

    #27 1 year ago

    Not getting this thread. I keep saying I will go out and buy a new game. Deadpool seemed like a cool theme, went and played it but its not 5k of fun to me. At 5k I'd rather buy lotr, tspp, or heck two 90's williams. 5k would net me a bsd and a fish tales, both of which are more feature laden than a modern stern. If I want depth of rules RBION, TSPP, or LOTR are just as deep as any of the new stuff and have more to them sans lcd.

    Glad you enjoy the new stuff, but unless its a must have theme or has a proven track record in and of itself say Metallica I don't see the value in new sterns.

    16
    #28 1 year ago
    Quoted from dung:

    Not getting this thread. I keep saying I will go out and buy a new game. Deadpool seemed like a cool theme, went and played it but its not 5k of fun to me. At 5k I'd rather buy lotr, tspp, or heck two 90's williams. 5k would net me a bsd and a fish tales, both of which are more feature laden than a modern stern. If I want depth of rules RBION, TSPP, or LOTR are just as deep as any of the new stuff and have more to them sans lcd.
    Glad you enjoy the new stuff, but unless its a must have theme or has a proven track record in and of itself say Metallica I don't see the value in new sterns.

    I dont think $5k buys BSD snd FT anymore.

    I concur with the OP. With many 80s and 90s pins having doubled, and in some cases tripled, over the last several years I'm disinclined to buy them. Another problem is even if you're okay paying the going rate it's very difficult to find a particular title in good shape, priced fairly and within reasonable driving distance. Way too many greedy a-holes overstating condition and trying to tack an extra $1k-$3k on top of an already high value.

    What would you prefer? Driving 3 hours to go buy an unshopped TOM with some insert wear for $6k, or a beat up WH2O for $4500, or a NIB Maiden on your doorstep for $5000-something?

    90s prices in particular are stupid right now. Bring on more remakes!

    #29 1 year ago
    Quoted from Puffdanny:

    With Stern producing 3-4 titles a year I see the used Stern market taking a hit.I agree why would I spend close to 5k for a used gb,got,im,sm.......when I can get the newest title for well under 6k.I predict 4k will become the norm for a used stern in the near future.

    Stern has never produced 4 new unique titles in a year (unless you count Whoa Nellie, which I don't). Many times they've released 3, but never 4.

    I agree with those who've said that the B/W stuff is played out. They are great games, I still have a couple, but I am a player, and I want to play something different.

    #30 1 year ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    What would you prefer? Driving 3 hours to go buy an unshopped TOM with some insert wear for $6k, or a beat up WH2O for $4500, or a NIB Maiden on your doorstep for $5000-something?

    90s prices in particular are stupid right now. Bring on more remakes!

    I love my old Williams/Ballys but this is so true. This is also why I got my first NIB Stern (AC/DC Luci) delivered to my house this year. It'll happen again next year too.

    #31 1 year ago
    Quoted from Black_Knight:

    I don't think they are priced at the floor right now.

    Actually, yes, yes they are. TNA is a prime example of this.

    Quoted from Black_Knight:

    The manufacturing costs have not grown near this rate over the same time frame

    Again, it has without a doubt grown at the same rate. The numbers show this.

    #32 1 year ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    I dont think $5k buys BSD snd FT anymore.
    I concur with the OP. With many 80s and 90s pins having doubled, and in some cases tripled, over the last several years I'm disinclined to buy them. Another problem is even if you're okay paying the going rate it's very difficult to find a particular title in good shape, priced fairly and within reasonable driving distance. Way too many greedy a-holes overstating condition and trying to tack an extra $1k-$3k on top of an already high value.
    What would you prefer? Driving 3 hours to go buy an unshopped TOM with some insert wear for $6k, or a beat up WH2O for $4500, or a NIB Maiden on your doorstep for $5000-something?
    90s prices in particular are stupid right now. Bring on more remakes!

    I have watched locally as both of these titles sat working from collectors for 2500 each in the past year, so yes you can. That said some people do not care if a game is perfect, many just want to play it. This varies person to person though. Personally I like a machine that in good shape, but don't care if its perfect. I also find modern sterns to feel cheap as crap. Pegs instead of rails. The new metal head. The cheap latch system for the lock down bar. Also not a fan of the lack of backbox lighting effects. For me the sweet spot was the early to mid 2000's when stern had deep rulesets but still had a high bom. You lost out on the backbox light effects, but it had everything else. Now, unless you get a premium it feels like you got ripped off.

    #33 1 year ago
    Quoted from snyper2099:

    Actually, yes, yes they are. TNA is a prime example of this.

    Again, it has without a doubt grown at the same rate. The numbers show this.

    That's not apples to apples. Spooky buys parts in batches of ~50 games. Stern makes 50 games a day. Do you really think they are paying the same prices for parts? Just go to Marco and see what sort of volume discounts you can get at the retail level.

    #34 1 year ago
    Quoted from snyper2099:

    Actually, yes, yes they are. TNA is a prime example of this.

    TNA may have been priced with smaller margin to be competitive, but I'd be surprised if it is priced at cost - which is the floor price of manufactured goods.

    Stern and JJP machines are priced to get every last $ out of everyone they can - hence all the upscale collectors editions - and prices have nothing to do with manufacturing cost.

    Quoted from snyper2099:

    The numbers show this.

    If you have real data on this, please share - you'd be the first one in the history of pinside! If the unit costs have risen at this same rate, then pinball is the only industry in the US where costs have risen that fast in this period of time. 60% growth in 7 years is 7% CAGR which is 3x inflation and GDP rate over the same period.

    There is common agreement here that Stern has 'cheaped out' to reduce to keep the BOM down while radically increasing prices. How do you reconcile these?

    #35 1 year ago

    I like both, I can enjoy the new Sterns on location and not worry about code or hardware issues and have the older games with user repairable electronics at home.

    #36 1 year ago
    Quoted from dung:

    I have watched locally as both of these titles sat working from collectors for 2500 each in the past year, so yes you can. That said some people do not care if a game is perfect, many just want to play it. This varies person to person though. Personally I like a machine that in good shape, but don't care if its perfect. I also find modern sterns to feel cheap as crap. Pegs instead of rails. The new metal head. The cheap latch system for the lock down bar. Also not a fan of the lack of backbox lighting effects. For me the sweet spot was the early to mid 2000's when stern had deep rulesets but still had a high bom. You lost out on the backbox light effects, but it had everything else. Now, unless you get a premium it feels like you got ripped off.

    Most $2500 BSD's and Fishtales are going to be rough. I'm a buyer of nice condition WPC games in the $2500 or less range but now days people want $3K plus for games like Demo Man, Judge Dredd and WCS. I've owned all 3 and enjoyed them when they were $1200 games but there's no way in hell I'd pay what these games go for these days. When I got into the hobby in the early 2000's HUO Stern games like LOTR and TSPP were $3300-$3500. Now HUO Stern games are $4400-$4800. It's a jump but the inflation isn't nearly as bad as the WPC games and I can still justify the pricing in my mind. I used to have a WH20 which I paid $1700 and to buy that game now it would probably be close to triple the price. I'd rather have a game like Iron Maiden that is in perfect condition than a WH20.

    #37 1 year ago

    I still buy 80s and 90s, but I'm very selective. Mostly picking good pins that are still reasonably priced. No bandwagon pins. Recent pick-ups include Comet, F14 and Gilligan.

    #38 1 year ago
    Quoted from Black_Knight:

    If you have real data on this, please share - you'd be the first one in the history of pinside! If the unit costs have risen at this same rate, then pinball is the only industry in the US where costs have risen that fast in this period of time. 60% growth in 7 years is 7% CAGR which is 3x inflation and GDP rate over the same period.

    I don't know what real data you are looking for but the NIB price of a Stern is CERTAINLY something that I have known the price of since the year 2001. I am not alone. Any distributor can tell you the price of a new Stern in 2005, 2002, 2014, ect. THAT is the increase in retail price I am speaking about. If you are talking about an increase in COSTS, I never said that anywhere in any of my previous statements. Probably have to talk to previous employees of Stern to gather that data.

    -I added to the post above to clarify that point. We are essentially in agreement.

    #39 1 year ago
    Quoted from Black_Knight:

    TNA may have been priced with smaller margin to be competitive, but I'd be surprised if it is priced at cost - which is the floor price of manufactured goods.

    Ok, so they are a business. They are making a product and selling it for a profit. Are they selling the game for the most $ that they can squeeze out of people, just like every single retail item in the entire world? I don't think so but I suppose it's possible. While I do not think they are selling it at COST, you are correct that I do think that they underpriced their product a bit to be competitive. That's all.

    #40 1 year ago

    I love both classics and the sterns. Price wise its getting a little crazy but what sterns are missing is that magic that older pins have. What Sterns do have is Deep code, but i won't buy anything past DMD era for me.

    #41 1 year ago
    Quoted from MikeS:

    I'd rather have a game like Iron Maiden that is in perfect condition than a WH20.

    Well that's because it's a way better game.

    #42 1 year ago
    Quoted from snyper2099:

    I don't know what you are talking about but the NIB price of a Stern is CERTAINLY something that I have known the price of since the year 2001. I am not alone. Any distributor can tell you the price of a new Stern in 2005, 2002, 2014, ect. THAT is the increase in retail price I am speaking about. If you are talking about an increase in COSTS, I never said that anywhere in any of my previous statements.

    Your original post & premise was that old machines are priced on demand, but that NIB machines were priced based on MANUFACTURING and had increased 60%. (You have since edited your original post)

    My point is that pinball machines are priced based on demand and have nothing to do with the manufacturing costs.

    It's not the cost of the feature or set of features that sets the price, but the perceived value of those features by the market.

    #43 1 year ago

    I agree with you. Feel it difficult to pay for instance more for a decent but not perfect MB as a new stern pro.

    Stern Pros like TwD or Met or Imdn or GB really give a lot of playing pleasure for your money. Yes, the nineties pin are for sure more delux but do they offer more fun in playing ??

    So from a player perspective I fully agree. I am not paying these high prices for a nineties pin as I than prefer a NIB stern pro

    #44 1 year ago

    Have NIB prices really risen 40-60% though? I've seen things like this said before and I find it hard to believe. The cheapest MSRP I could find for a NIB stern was Met Pro for 4995. How much could you actually buy one for? It would have had to have been 3995 for 40% to be correct, and maybe it was.

    #45 1 year ago

    (I did not remove any words from my original post, I only added some words clarification.)

    The prices certainly HAVE risen that much since early 2000’s, and you are thinking way too new. Think of it when RCT was NIB for 3K. And BTW, When MET pros were first released, they were 4200. I paid 4500 for my second one, a couple years in to production.

    The problem with pricing set by the manuafacter is that they don’t sell the games to the public, you have to purchase though a distributor. That is, unless you are a distributor.

    By the time you buy the game, it’s been marked up twice already. No matter what you want to believe, the manuafactuer only suggests a price.

    Besides, most pinball machine sales are on the secondary market, sold as used machines. So when you are considering the entire secondary market, it’s harder to set a price based on demand unless you just stick with “best offer” or closely track sales history.

    Look at this bigger picture. The average NIB buyer is simultaneously considering ALL NIB machines available from all companies. The features and specifics of a game are the determining factor for purchase, the price is secondary. If you are looking to buy a new pin, you are spending 5K-10K, doesn't matter at what grocery store you shop.

    #46 1 year ago

    While the stern pros are fun for a while(2-3 months) ... i find myself going back and playing b/w pins more . Theres something missing from the sterns that b/w has and also jjp has imo.

    #47 1 year ago
    Quoted from Loganpinball:

    Just curious if I am the only one crazy to think that if Stern keeps offering really good games at the pro level am I alone in hessitating to spend over 4500 on used older games? Considering for a bit more you can get a new pro model or even really close to some used newer titles.
    Stern’s last couple are really enjoyable games for us. I hate the scoring in Star Wars, but love playing it. Iron Maiden is excellent and Dead Pool is another excellent pro level game. If they keep producing enjoyable pro models at this rate, it will affect myself in the market for games, meaning I would most likely spend my money on their newer machines over older ones. I got Dead Pool used and we love it. We have Star Wars and also love it minus the scoring. I will get Iron Maiden at one point. That is the effect Stern has had on me. Am I alone in this thought? Not bashing or trolling, really just curious if anyone shares this oppinion. Thanks.
    [quoted image]

    Understood, but I have yet to find a mech more exciting then mist multi ball in BSD or destroying a castle in MM. Maybe TRON recognizer spinning disk, but that is it.

    #48 1 year ago
    Quoted from snyper2099:

    No matter what you want to believe, the manuafactuer only suggests a price.

    It is my understanding that Stern sets an "advertised" price and minimum price that all distributors have to adhere to.

    #49 1 year ago

    I own zero pinball machines. I don't plan to purchase any pinball machines. And if I did, it would be to put the game out in public.

    I've played pinball (on location) regularly, since the beginning of the DMD era. I love pinball. I love the games that got me hooked, 25+ years ago. I love the modern Sterns, too.

    If I could only have one game for free, I would choose a modern Stern pro over a B/W without hesitation. If I won 5 pinball machines of my choice (at the Stern pro price point), all 5 would be Stern Pros.

    If I were a rich dude, I would own 10 B/W games and zero Sterns. If I were rich I would have no time for pinball. I'd be out snorkeling on my yacht.

    #50 1 year ago

    You don't even need a yacht to go snorkeling - win!

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    Lighted Pinball Mods
    $ 19.99
    $ 10.95
    Playfield - Decals
    Pinball Pimp
    $ 59.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    pinballmod
    $ 7.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Pinball Z
    $ 18.00
    Cabinet - Decals
    Top-Notch Target Shields
    $ 26.95
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