(Topic ID: 293154)

Stern pricing criticism isn’t justified based on the MSRP history.

By VMAX

5 months ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 127 posts
  • 47 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 months ago by PinFever
  • Topic is favorited by 6 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    View topic image gallery

    western.gif
    EF1A67E5-473E-4C77-BFB7-43CFCD21067B (resized).jpeg

    There are 127 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
    -10
    #1 5 months ago

    Other than the early price jump from 2011 to 2012, the Stern pricing has been flat with only moderate increases. With Mandalorian reportedly holding the line at the same pricing as LZ and AIQ, Stern NIB price complaints are invalid and more applicable to the JJP and CGC secondary market and the used market. (For example, a January 2017 Aerosmith Pro was the same MSRP as the upcoming 2021 newest release. The September 2013 Star Trek LE was only $400 less than the latest LEs.)

    PRO EDITIONS:
    2020-12 Led Zeppelin Pro - $6,199
    2020-09 Avengers: Infinity Quest Pro - $6,199

    2020-05 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Pro - $6,099
    2019-12 Stranger Things Pro - $6,099
    2019-09 Elvira’s House of Horrors Pro - N/A

    2019-07 Jurassic Park Pro - $5,999
    2019-03 Black Knight: Sword of Rage Pro - $5,999
    2019-01 The Munsters Pro - $5,999
    2018-10 The Beatles Gold Edition - N/A
    2018-08 Deadpool Pro - $5,999
    2018-03 Iron Maiden Pro - $5,999

    2017-10 Guardians of the Galaxy Pro - $6,199
    2017-06 Star Wars Pro - $6,199
    2017-01 Aerosmith Pro - $6,199
    2016-08 Batman ‘66 Pro - N/A

    2016-03 Ghostbusters Pro - $5,995
    2015-09 Game of Thrones Pro - $5,995
    2015-05 KISS Pro - $5,995

    2015-01 WWE Wrestlemania Pro - $5,495
    2014-09 The Walking Dead Pro - $5,995
    2014-03 Mustang Pro - $5,395
    2013-09 Star Trek Pro - $5,395
    2013-04 Metallica Pro - $4,995

    2012-11 Avengers Pro - $5,699
    2012-06 X-Men Pro - $5,699
    2012-03 AC/DC Pro - $5,699

    2011-09 Transformers Pro - $4,795
    2011-05 Tron: Legacy Pro - $4,799
    2011-01 The Rolling Stones Pro - $4,799
    2010-08 Avatar Pro - $4,799

    LIMITED EDITIONS:
    2020-12 Led Zeppelin Limited Edition - 500 (Blue) $9,199
    2020-09 Avengers: Infinity Quest Limited Edition - 500 (Yellow) $9,199

    2020-05 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Limited Edition - 500 (Green) $9,099
    2019-12 Stranger Things Limited Edition - 500 (Purple) $9,099
    2019-09 Elvira’s House of Horrors Limited Edition - 400 (Red) $9,599

    2019-07 Jurassic Park Limited Edition - 500 (Green) $8,999
    2019-03 Black Knight: Sword of Rage Limited Edition - 600 (Black) $8,999
    2019-01 The Munsters Limited Edition - 600 (Black/Gold) $8,999
    2018-10 The Beatles Platinum Edition - 250 (Platinum) $N/A
    2018-08 Deadpool Limited Edition - 500 (Red) $8,999
    2018-03 Iron Maiden: Legacy of the Beast Limited Edition - 500 (Red) $8,999
    2017-10 Guardians of the Galaxy Limited Edition - 600 (Gold) $8,999
    2017-06 Star Wars Limited Edition - 800 (Black) $8,999
    2017-01 Aerosmith Limited Edition - 500 (Purple) $8,999
    2016-08 Batman ‘66 Limited Edition - 240 (Black) $9,999

    2016-03 Ghostbusters Limited Edition - 500 (Green) $8,795
    2015-09 Game of Thrones Limited Edition - 700 (Black) $8,795
    2015-05 KISS Limited Edition - 600 (Red) $8,795
    2015-01 WWE Wrestlemania: Limited Edition - 400 (Gold) $8,595
    2014-09 The Walking Dead Limited Edition - 600 (Red-Brown) $8,595
    2014-03 Mustang “50 Years” Limited Edition - 500 (Blue) $8,495
    2013-09 Star Trek USS Enterprise Limited Edition - 799 (Blue) $8,795

    2013-04 Metallica: Master of Puppets Limited Edition- 500 (Silver) $7,595

    2012-11 Avengers Blue Limited Edition - 250 (Blue) $8,099
    2012-11 Avengers Hulk Limited Edition - 250 (Green) $8,099

    2012-06 X-Men: Magneto Limited Edition - 250 (Red) $7,999
    2012-06 X-Men: Wolverine Limited Edition - 250 (Blue) $7,999

    2012-03 AC/DC: Let There Be Rock Limited Edition - 200 (Red) $8,499
    2012-03 AC/DC: Back In Black Limited Edition - 300 (Black) $8,499

    2011-09 Transformers: Combo Limited Edition - 500 (Red/Purple) $6,999

    2011-05 Tron: Legacy Limited Edition - 400 (Black) $5,999
    2011-01 The Rolling Stones Limited Edition - 350 (Silver) $5,999
    2010-08 Avatar Limited Edition - 250 (Black) $5,999

    #2 5 months ago

    The issue has always been street price vs MSRP.

    Quoted from VMAX:

    2019-07 Jurassic Park Pro - $5,999
    2017-06 Star Wars Pro - $6,199
    2016-03 Ghostbusters Pro - $5,995
    2015-09 Game of Thrones Pro - $5,995

    Obviously I didn't pay anywhere near that price, the the diff'rence gap has been going down over time. No Idea on Mando's price though.

    14
    #3 5 months ago

    In 2014, I bought TWD Premium for $6200, NIB.

    Seven years later, I am paying that for LZ Pro...?

    I dont think so.

    #4 5 months ago
    Quoted from NPO:

    In 2014, I bought TWD Premium for $6200, NIB.
    Seven years later, I am paying that for LZ Pro...?
    I dont think so.

    I bet someone is warming up an inflation calculator as we type.

    #5 5 months ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    I bet someone is warming up an inflation calculator as we type.

    EF1A67E5-473E-4C77-BFB7-43CFCD21067B (resized).jpeg

    rd

    #6 5 months ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    The issue has always been street price vs MSRP.

    Obviously I didn't pay anywhere near that price, the the diff'rence gap has been going down over time. No Idea on Mando's price though.

    Definitely. I guess that’s part of my point. All the criticism seems to be aimed at the manufacturers’ pricing.

    Mando was “leaked” to be the same pricing as LZ and AIQ, with no increase. We’ll know for sure tomorrow.

    #7 5 months ago
    Quoted from NPO:

    In 2014, I bought TWD Premium for $6200, NIB.
    Seven years later, I am paying that for LZ Pro...?
    I dont think so.

    TWD Premium MSRP was $7,595. The Pro MSRP was only $5,995. So Pro for Pro is only up $200 in 6 years. LZ Premium MSRP was also only up $200 from TWD Premium.

    Wouldn’t that mean that any criticism would be about street price rather than Stern pricing? And wouldn’t that mean the market has gone up rather than Stern being the culprit? A $200 price increase by the manufacturer in 6 years isn’t much. Very moderate.

    #8 5 months ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    I bet someone is warming up an inflation calculator as we type.

    It probably wouldn’t hurt. Wait until 2022 and 2023 inflation effects hit. Wowzah.

    #9 5 months ago

    The only thing criminal here is charging 8k for Mustang

    #10 5 months ago
    Quoted from VMAX:

    It probably wouldn’t hurt. Wait until 2022 and 2023 inflation effects hit. Wowzah.

    I am just not buying anything from any pinball manufacturer. I just got a better warranty on my 2800 dollar John Deere lawn tractor than a Stern 7500 dollar pinball.

    #11 5 months ago

    LOL,

    Op you are using data to argue an emotional debate. No fair !

    I agree with your point. Inflation accounts for the MSRP changes except as you post out in the early year. I believe the big change was several years ago , most of us that had relationships with our distributors and could get a "discount" off MSRP. Hence I could get an ACDC Prem for 6K NIB or a GOTLE for 7500. With the new Stern pricing requirements, distributors do not have that opportunity to pass on discounts. Pins now sell at or 200 dollars off MSRP. Not sure where that money eventually landed, at Stern or the distributor level.

    So with the MSRP jump you pointed out from 2011 to 2012 plus the no discount policy installed a couple of years back, you can see the majority of the NIB customer increases ( inflationary increases add obviously as well). Not sure how that explains how a Stranger Things LE can sell for 12k on the secondary market or a BKSOR topper for 2K. Those are just market demand prices. There market always speaks .

    #12 5 months ago

    Five years ago a distributor told me I could buy GB Pro for $5000 shipped. What's the bottom on Pros now?

    -5
    #13 5 months ago
    Quoted from Mrawesome44:

    The only thing criminal here is charging 8k for Mustang

    Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Agreed. Is it the worst Stern of the ‘99-Present era? Certainly one of the few worst, if not THE worst.

    I played it again just yesterday on location. What was Trudeau thinking?!

    #14 5 months ago
    Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

    I am just not buying anything from any pinball manufacturer. I just got a better warranty on my 2800 dollar John Deere lawn tractor than a Stern 7500 dollar pinball.

    Wait... Stern has warranties? Who knew?!! LOL.

    #15 5 months ago
    Quoted from Mrawesome44:

    The only thing criminal here is charging 8k for Mustang

    or you can buy the $12k Mustang LE in the market place.

    #16 5 months ago
    Quoted from sulli10:

    LOL,
    Op you are using data to argue an emotional debate. No fair !
    I agree with your point. Inflation accounts for the MSRP changes except as you post out in the early year. I believe the big change was several years ago , most of us that had relationships with our distributors and could get a "discount" off MSRP. Hence I could get an ACDC Prem for 6K NIB or a GOTLE for 7500. With the new Stern pricing requirements, distributors do not have that opportunity to pass on discounts. Pins now sell at or 200 dollars off MSRP. Not sure where that money eventually landed, at Stern or the distributor level.
    So with the MSRP jump you pointed out from 2011 to 2012 plus the no discount policy installed a couple of years back, you can see the majority of the NIB customer increases ( inflationary increases add obviously as well). Not sure how that explains how a Stranger Things LE can sell for 12k on the secondary market or a BKSOR topper for 2K. Those are just market demand prices. There market always speaks .

    That’s what I’m seeing. Other than the 2011-2012 jump (for whatever reason), Stern isn’t directly responsible for much of the pricing criticism. In fact, the Pros dropped $300 for a couple of years before leveling back off at their previous price. (This is all ignoring exceptions like Batman ‘66, Beatles, Elvira, etc. as anomalies.)

    The street discounts have gradually disappeared over the past decade+. Just like the secondary market and the used market, that has little to do with Stern directly. The market has “adjusted” to the point that MSRP is now the selling price. Is that margin shrinkage? Is it all Distributor/Dealer profit increase? I don’t know. But it doesn’t seem to warrant complaint against Stern. It looks like modern free market economics to me.

    #17 5 months ago
    Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

    I am just not buying anything from any pinball manufacturer. I just got a better warranty on my 2800 dollar John Deere lawn tractor than a Stern 7500 dollar pinball.

    I am with you, my money is going towards other stuff at the moment and all this stuff has better warranties and customer service.

    #18 5 months ago
    Quoted from woody76:

    or you can buy the $12k Mustang LE in the market place.

    nevermind, he took the ad down.

    #19 5 months ago
    Quoted from seenev:

    Five years ago a distributor told me I could buy GB Pro for $5000 shipped. What's the bottom on Pros now?

    That’s a question I’d like to see someone accurately answer myself. That’s where the price increases to buyers actually are; not from Stern directly.

    #20 5 months ago

    I remember I could have had NIB AC/DC pro for 3,750 back then. I never took advantage but I miss those street prices. Oh and the uproar when Metallicas hit the street at like 4200

    10
    #21 5 months ago
    Quoted from VMAX:

    Other than the early price jump from 2011 to 2012, the Stern pricing has been flat with only moderate increases.

    Utter horsecrap. I hate to call you out on this, but I've never paid MSRP on a game, and it is a useless number that means nothing in Pinball. Very few people on Pinside have ever paid MSRP, and when they find out they did before they learned anything, they felt like they had been ripped off. Stern fanboys have used that number over the years to say prices were not going up, but they always were going up. Remember back when the street price was going up 200 bucks each release? Remember when Stern outlawed telling you a price from a distributor through email? Remember when they were clipping out distributors that were selling games at too low a price? They didn't do that because they were keeping prices steady.

    #22 5 months ago
    Quoted from timtim:

    I remember I could have had NIB AC/DC pro for 3,750 back then. I never took advantage but I miss those street prices. Oh and the uproar when Metallicas hit the street at like 4200

    Metallica was definitely an oddity. It was an unprecendented dip in price between machines that we’ve never seen before or again.

    #23 5 months ago
    Quoted from DaveH:

    Utter horsecrap. I hate to call you out on this, but I've never paid MSRP on a game, and it is a useless number that means nothing in Pinball. Very few people on Pinside have ever paid MSRP, and when they find out they did before they learned anything, they felt like they had been ripped off. Stern fanboys have used that number over the years to say prices were not going up, but they always were going up. Remember back when the street price was going up 200 bucks each release? Remember when Stern outlawed telling you a price from a distributor through email? Remember when they were clipping out distributors that were selling games at too low a price? They didn't do that because they were keeping prices steady.

    But the listed Stern prices are accurate. You’re affirming that the price increases have nothing to do with Stern directly, but are a reflection of the reduction in price from MSRP. I know MSRP is bogus, but it’s the only published standard for comparison. That’s why it points to smaller and smaller discounts for the street prices, which is what has happened.

    Are you saying Stern is directly and solely responsible for street price increases? That doesn’t make sense. What am I missing?

    #24 5 months ago

    In 2016 JJ at Game Exchange shipped a Ghostbusters and Walking Dead Pro to my front door for $9999.00 (back then, no tax). Hard to believe that was only 5 years ago.

    #25 5 months ago
    Quoted from VMAX:

    Are you saying Stern is directly and solely responsible for street price increases? That doesn’t make sense. What am I missing?

    Stern sets pricing standards. In the old days, retailers could offer deep discounts but no more. That's how some people quote getting games much cheaper than today.

    #26 5 months ago
    Quoted from VMAX:

    Are you saying Stern is directly and solely responsible for street price increases?

    Yes

    #27 5 months ago

    Nice try, Jared!

    We all know it's not the MSRP. Street prices have gone up more than you imply due to Stern setting minimum advertise price and minimum selling prices, where those didn't exist before.

    #28 5 months ago

    I always add $400 when comparing SAM to Spike, because you need the ColorDMD to make the display even approach what we’re getting now with the LCD. I paid $4700 in 2013 for Metallica and a ColorDMD, and Stern Pros are now $6000 MSRP and street price. That’s a 28% increase over 8 years, but we also get the 8 years of improvements. I’m okay with it as long as I can still enjoy the game for a few years and not lose too much when I sell it.

    #29 5 months ago

    your tron prices are wrong. I could have gotten an LE for $5400 when it was released.

    My NIB LOTR was 3400 in 2007, shipped from the factory to my door.

    #30 5 months ago
    Quoted from VMAX:

    Are you saying Stern is directly and solely responsible for street price increases? That doesn’t make sense. What am I missing?

    100%. Look up what MAP is. Distributors used to be able to go well below MSRP. Not anymore due to new Stern rules. Some still go below that, but not many.

    #31 5 months ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    your tron prices are wrong. I could have gotten an LE for $5400 when it was released.
    My NIB LOTR was 3400 in 2007, shipped from the factory to my door.

    They are MSRP prices. Not street.

    #32 5 months ago

    nobody pays MSRP. those are fabricated prices to try and inflate value

    #33 5 months ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    nobody pays MSRP. those are fabricated prices to try and inflate value

    You are right, but his prices aren’t wrong. He’s comparing MSRP over the years.

    #34 5 months ago

    gotcha. i wonder what LOTR was MSRP'd for in 2007? compared to what I paid shipped.

    #35 5 months ago
    Quoted from HighVoltage:

    Nice try, Jared!
    We all know it's not the MSRP. Street prices have gone up more than you imply due to Stern setting minimum advertise price and minimum selling prices, where those didn't exist before.

    Who is Jared?

    That’s what I’m getting at. Stern’s MSRP pricing isn’t the culprit.

    Street prices have gone up because of adjustments to the pricing structure that prevents deep discounts. Just like many other industries in the past decade have done to standardize pricing. About the only industries left that haven’t eliminated deep discounts are furniture and pianos; and those have seen margins drop, too.

    #36 5 months ago
    Quoted from swampfire:

    I always add $400 when comparing SAM to Spike, because you need the ColorDMD to make the display even approach what we’re getting now with the LCD. I paid $4700 in 2013 for Metallica and a ColorDMD, and Stern Pros are now $6000 MSRP and street price. That’s a 28% increase over 8 years, but we also get the 8 years of improvements. I’m okay with it as long as I can still enjoy the game for a few years and not lose too much when I sell it.

    And don’t forget that Metallica was a single anomaly in pricing decrease between other titles. That contributes to the 28% gap because no other machines were as low-priced as Metallica (though I have no idea why that was true).

    #37 5 months ago
    Quoted from VMAX:

    no other machines were as low-priced as Metallica (though I have no idea why that was true).

    MET came out at the same time as WOZ, I think that had something to do with it.

    #38 5 months ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    100%. Look up what MAP is. Distributors used to be able to go well below MSRP. Not anymore due to new Stern rules. Some still go below that, but not many.

    Yes, I compare that to several other industries where MAP has been introduced for various reasons to internally regulate pricing variance, etc. That’s also not completely a bad thing, though, is it? Yamaha does it for all their acoustic and electronic instruments to keep consumers from constantly hammering multiple dealers into competition for a single sale.

    Maybe I’m the only one who thinks about this from both a consumer AND business model standpoint. I wouldn’t want to be a Stern distributor/dealer and have to sell everything for minimum profit just to make sure the consumer gets an extra-deep discount, especially with demand as it is in the market right now. Cleaning up the dealer level with standardized pricing is an overall good thing.

    #39 5 months ago
    Quoted from swampfire:

    MET came out at the same time as WOZ, I think that had something to do with it.

    That makes sense.

    #40 5 months ago

    At this point, I am trying to decide if I just simply sell everything I own and be done with pinball or just hold on. If holding on, one thing is for certain...I wish I hadn't ever sold any pin (well, except maybe for a few). I'd have an enormous collection at way below market level investment.

    -7
    #41 5 months ago

    Starting to think you should have to be a member for a full year before you can start a new thread.

    #42 5 months ago

    Nothing to stress over here. There are always those who like to complain and feel they hold some sort of moral authority to do so.

    No one is going to make a Frontline documentary on the victimization of pinball machine collectors.

    20
    #43 5 months ago
    Quoted from pinlink:

    Starting to think you should have to be a member for a full year before you can start a new thread.

    I’m 58yo and bought my first pinball machine (Firepower) in 1980 just after graduating high school. Your 5-year Pinside membership doesn’t mean your subjective opinions are right and others shouldn’t be able to post because you wrongly think they’re clueless newbies.

    (You show owning no machines and having rated no machines. Yet you somehow think you’re the arbiter of who should be able to post and when.)

    #44 5 months ago
    Quoted from Bellystyle:

    In 2016 JJ at Game Exchange shipped a Ghostbusters and Walking Dead Pro to my front door for $9999.00 (back then, no tax). Hard to believe that was only 5 years ago.

    So the price of a NIB pro has gone up $800 or so in five years?

    Big fuckin deal. Why are people so outraged by this?

    Not sure if you've noticed but a lot has happened in five years in this industry.

    #45 5 months ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    your tron prices are wrong. I could have gotten an LE for $5400 when it was released.
    My NIB LOTR was 3400 in 2007, shipped from the factory to my door.

    2007 was 14 years ago. How much were pins in 1993 compared to 2007?

    #46 5 months ago
    Quoted from nicoy3k:

    2007 was 14 years ago. How much were pins in 1993 compared to 2007?

    They were $78 cheaper.

    -1
    #47 5 months ago

    I can’t get nostalgic about price when those older, cheaper games had monochrome DMDs, incandescent insert lighting, USB upgrades (no SD cards), pixelated cabinet art and miles of wiring. SPIKE playfield swaps must be a breeze to do.

    [EDIT: don’t get me wrong, I still love my POTC, LOTR and MET. But I’ve been impressed with the progress Stern has made].

    #48 5 months ago
    Quoted from nicoy3k:

    2007 was 14 years ago. How much were pins in 1993 compared to 2007?

    The only way to know is to check the MSRP

    #49 5 months ago
    Quoted from VMAX:

    the Stern pricing has been flat with only moderate increases.

    Quoted from VMAX:

    That’s what I’m getting at. Stern’s MSRP pricing isn’t the culprit.
    Street prices have gone up because of adjustments to the pricing structure that prevents deep discounts.

    Eh, you're peddling that bike backwards pretty quickly.

    Who is it that changed the pricing structure? Then you can't say Stern pricing has been flat.

    #50 5 months ago

    If I don’t like the game I don’t buy it.
    If I don’t like the price I don’t buy it.

    If I like the price and the game, I buy it.

    There are 127 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.

    Hey there! Got a moment?

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside