A collector told me he was going to wait a month or 2 play his NIB Met. Why I asked? To let the playfield clear harden and cure.
I do notice some playfields dimple more then others. My LOTR had none. My first ACDC Pro had some. Tron Pro had some. Avengers I saw, dimples. My second ACDC Pro which was a very early production 3/12 had ZERO. I cant believe how well my playfield holding up.
Questions.
Does waiting work?
If so how long is good for curing CC?
Should wax be avoided or used day one?
Well, my thoughts...
Quoted from Av8:Does waiting work?
Yes, but it depends on when it was originally cleared. If the Playfield sat at Stern for a month, you're probably okay right out of the box.
Quoted from Av8:If so how long is good for curing CC?
If I'm recalling my investigations correctly on those Playfields I've had cleared, 30-days is considered the minimum safe zone.
Quoted from Av8:Should wax be avoided or used day one?
For me, a good waxing never hurts, but probably not that necessary day one. I haven't waxed my ACDC and it seems to be holding up well. No dimples or scratches at all yet. But, I'll toss some wax on it soon just to be safe.
To be safe, I also chucked the stock balls and put in new ohhhhh soooo shinny ones from PBL.
Hmm, I never thought of that, that's an interesting question. It would make sense that the cheap way of manufacturing at Stern sees them not allowing clear to age properly.
I tried this before, but the topic tends to be met with ignorance or apathy. In the end, YES, playfields absolutely do cure and harden over time, but the question is, how long and how much of a difference does it make?
If you talk to any CC guy, be it playfields or cars, every one of them readily admits to a necessary curing time, and that time is measured in either weeks or months
Stern is mum on the topic.
CPR's instructions are to let one of their playfields sit for 45 days or so.
High end playfield restorations with glossy smooth thick clearcoats take weeks in-between coats to cure and polish, ending in months of effort.
As for me, I sat on my XM LE for a few extra weeks due to timing, vacation, etc, and it was a good excuse to "let it cure." I've seen other XM with significantly more dimpling than mine, but who's to say the other one doesn't have significantly more games on it?
I had a CPR space shuttle playfield that cured over 6 months and wound up lifting inserts as the wood dried out and the CC hardened. I have another that cured perfectly, has extra layers of clear coat, and many months later the CC is still softer than playfields that are years older.
So the question is what is your own tolerance? Perhaps, a few years of playing results in so many dimples it just looks like an orange-peel clear coat (i.e., you can't identify dimples any longer). Perhaps letting a playfield cure for weeks/months/years allows the playfield to retain most of its shiny smoothness even after many hundreds of games.
The most relevant test I can think of is to find someone who bought a 2 year old NIB Stern and compare it to a game that was routed right out off the factory floor than sat, and at the point when both have the same number of plays, compare the playfields.
http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-to-treat-a-new-playfield
Sterns play fields are often very fresh sometimes only 2 weeks old.dimpling will happen no matter what. Bigger risk for ghosting aka separation though between clear and insert as adhesion is weaker on the inserts than it is on the wood. I spoke up about this on acdc and when they shipped I was very much correct about the chemical issues on the Lexan. Obv the longer you wait the better but it's honestly a crap shoot. Hopefully le buyers will have a higher quality of clear. Never ever wax a nib came for at least 30-90 days. It needs to breathe just like a car after spraying. I don't do play fields often but have sprayed 20 or so high end cars into life. It's all about the prep.
Quoted from Atomicboy:Good to know there won't be hardening issues with the WOZ PF's. They should be stopping bullets by now
Ha! LOL. Now that's funny!
Quoted from Baiter:I tried this before, but the topic tends to be met with ignorance or apathy. In the end, YES, playfields absolutely do cure and harden over time, but the question is, how long and how much of a difference does it make?
If you talk to any CC guy, be it playfields or cars, every one of them readily admits to a necessary curing time, and that time is measured in either weeks or months
Stern is mum on the topic.
CPR's instructions are to let one of their playfields sit for 45 days or so.
High end playfield restorations with glossy smooth thick clearcoats take weeks in-between coats to cure and polish, ending in months of effort.
As for me, I sat on my XM LE for a few extra weeks due to timing, vacation, etc, and it was a good excuse to "let it cure." I've seen other XM with significantly more dimpling than mine, but who's to say the other one doesn't have significantly more games on it?
I had a CPR Space Shuttle playfield that cured over 6 months and wound up lifting inserts as the wood dried out and the CC hardened. I have another that cured perfectly, has extra layers of clear coat, and many months later the CC is still softer than playfields that are years older.
So the question is what is your own tolerance? Perhaps, a few years of playing results in so many dimples it just looks like an orange-peel clear coat (i.e., you can't identify dimples any longer). Perhaps letting a playfield cure for weeks/months/years allows the playfield to retain most of its shiny smoothness even after many hundreds of games.
The most relevant test I can think of is to find someone who bought a 2 year old NIB Stern and compare it to a game that was routed right out off the factory floor than sat, and at the point when both have the same number of plays, compare the playfields.
http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-to-treat-a-new-playfield
Bought Tron 3rd run NIB. Lots of dimples.
Bought TF LE which had been sitting in a box for a while. No dimples.
I wax the pf from day one. Metal balls on wood I would think would require extra protection.
Cure time would also be relevant to the amount of clear actually applied to the playfield. In most sterns there seems to be an absolute minimum of clear, i.e. less cure time.
I have an ACDC premium made in late June 2012 and unboxed early July. I also have a Tron that was made early Feb 2013 and unboxed late March. I put new balls in both, and both have the same amount of dimples. The only difference between the two, is the Tron clearcoat in the shooter lane is beautiful. Makes ACDC look like it doesn't even have any clear in the same spot.
Vid, I don't get it. How can a steel ball be harder than a piece of wood with a 1mm layer of clear coat on it ?????????
Vid, I don't get it. How can a steel ball be harder than a piece of wood with a 1mm layer of clear coat on it ?????????
I know, right? LOL
The Janka test (the way we determine the hardness of wood) is measured by the force required to drive a 1/2" steel ball 1/2 way into a piece of wood.
There is no wood harder than steel, so that is why they use a steel ball as a measuring device.
Maple (the wood use to make playfields) requires 1400 lbs of force to bury the ball 1/2 way.
Quoted from movingpictures:you "collectors" are nuts!
Oh yeah? Well...yes. 
Quoted from AkumaZeto:Sterns play fields are often very fresh sometimes only 2 weeks old.dimpling will happen no matter what. Bigger risk for ghosting aka separation though between clear and insert as adhesion is weaker on the inserts than it is on the wood. I spoke up about this on acdc and when they shipped I was very much correct about the chemical issues on the Lexan. Obv the longer you wait the better but it's honestly a crap shoot. Hopefully le buyers will have a higher quality of clear. Never ever wax a nib came for at least 30-90 days. It needs to breathe just like a car after spraying. I don't do play fields often but have sprayed 20 or so high end cars into life. It's all about the prep.
Thanks. I heard this about wax. Makes sense. Clear looks great on Met playfield and the window on the LE coffin is like glass. They learned from you apparently.
My ACDC Pro is like glass. No dimples. And I get airballs all the time because of the coil strength and cannon. Weird.
I have an ACDC premium made in late June 2012 and unboxed early July. I also have a Tron that was made early Feb 2013 and unboxed late March. I put new balls in both, and both have the same amount of dimples. The only difference between the two, is the Tron clearcoat in the shooter lane is beautiful. Makes ACDC look like it doesn't even have any clear in the same spot.
You should put Mylar on shooter lane day one. My ACDC shooter lane had almost no clear and that paint stripe. I think Stern does this on purpose.
Quoted from Av8:You should put Mylar on shooter lane day one.
My shooter lane art was chipped and broken day 1 lol
Quoted from PersonX99:Bought Tron 3rd run NIB. Lots of dimples.
Bought TF LE which had been sitting in a box for a while. No dimples.
Nice, that's good evidence.
Quoted from cichlid:Vid, I don't get it. How can a steel ball be harder than a piece of wood with a 1mm layer of clear coat on it ?????????
If CC didn't help why do they bother putting it on? Have you ever seen the difference between a branch freshly taken off a tree and one that's fully dried? There is a stark difference in hardness, as the former gives in to bending quite easily, and the latter can become as hard as a rock over time.
this is why that other thread was started about playfield dimpling. Why it happens and what it's about. All should read that if you want to know how and why playfields dimple. Which they all do. If you don't have airballs, or the ball never leaves the playfield surface, you won't get them.
Dimples will Always come, no matter how long you wait. With professional done CC and the proper amount of time, it will take a long time before dimples show, but they will show. I have a LOTR with such a playfield. It had been curing for more then a year before i swapped it. And so far (almost) no dimples. I waited 8 months before playing on my Tron LE, and i have a lot less dimples then friends who began playing right away. But i'm sure that over time the difference will be gone.
Btw, AV8 where did you get that metal plate for over the shooterlane?
Quoted from CaptainNeo:why, was your game in a flood?
Hehe no, but i imagine the wood still has more moisture in it than maybe my 20 year old TAF. Moist wood does seem to dent more easily; so my thinking was that it couldn't hurt to lower the moisture content in the wood. Plus I run a dehumidifier anyways during the summer months, so I figured leaving the coin door open to allow a bit of airflow/"drying out" action couldn't hurt. The dehumidifier isn't pointed into it or anything, it's like 20 feet away and aimed generally into that area.
Quoted from McCune:All I see in this thread are opinions and no facts . Play the damn game and try to have fun!
Sure, most people don't give a crap about this topic, as the game gets flipped as soon as they get bored. But lets not pretend there aren't facts in this thread from personal experiences and long conversations with professional playfield restorers.
you guys are over analyzing this. Seriously. It's dimpling, it's part of pinball. If you want games where the ball leaves the Table, your going to get dimples. If you don't like dimples, buy only EM's. Just like insert ghosting. If you like clearcoated fields. Ghosting will happen at sometime in your life. There are things you just can't get away from in pinball. Just like off register printing on playfields. Nothing in pinball is perfect and won't be. If you can't handle something that's not perfect, then you can't play your machines....ever. Put a Doily on them and admire.
Hey, I like playing my games and can accept that dimpling will happen. Nothing wrong with trying to take some steps to minimize it. Two of our cars have rustproofing. Call me crazy, but it seems like it's possible to keep something imperfect in good condition while also enjoying it; with minimal effort.
If I can put a bit of thought in and prevent a problem and perhaps save money in repairs down the road, it seems to me that it's worth the extra 5 minutes of my life.
Quoted from CaptainNeo:you guys are over analyzing this. Seriously. It's dimpling, it's part of pinball. If you want games where the ball leaves the Table, your going to get dimples.
No one denies mass dimpling is inevitable. This topic is about the basics of handling of a new playfield, part of which is when to clean it first and with what. It's not like there are universally agreed upon recommendations on this topic, and thus the thread.
New game should not need more than a dry wipe down with a tack rag until way after 5000+ games are played.
airballs are the key. Less airball means less dimples and take longer to form.
Rustproofing is a joke. Just like that seinfield episode where he's trying to buy a car from putty.
Jerry says" And the rustproofing"
Putty replies, "yea..we don't even know what that is".
it's true. it's bullshit sales tactic.
Quoted from AkumaZeto:SOOOOOO galvanized metal is a joke?
so you think cars are made with galvanized metal if they are rust proofed? No car dealerships claiming they have rustproofing on a car is a joke.
Quoted from CaptainNeo:so you think cars are made with galvanized metal if they are rust proofed? No car dealerships claiming they have rustproofing on a car is a joke.
All porsches after 1978 are galvanized! The Rusty Jones treatment on 80's doges saved them big time. Kinda barking up the wrong tree here Neo. If you want to talk automotive shop with me you will likely loose. The Under carriage spraying of tar or rubber is fantastic as long as the prep to the under side has been done.
I sprayed goop on hundreds of cars in my time at ford. HUNDREDS! Not a joke. Maybe it a schiester operation where they just rip you off. But companies like Z-Bar have built and empire on something that does not work?
I have had loads LOADS ASS LOADS of cars come in for frame work or pan replacement and i have to chip that shit off with dry ice and a air chisel. So I dotn want to hear how it doe snot work. If the seal is compromised then yes but otherwise not so much. Often time bone heads think they can cover rust with coatings. Rust proofing is only for the under carrieage not the panels. Most time idiots get a chip on panels and leave it and leave it and leave it and guess what now its got surface rust. Then they leave it some more now there is a hole. I see idiots all the time in there brand new esclade with a paint chip. Months later notw its a surface rust etc.
Quoted from AkumaZeto:All porsches after 1978 are galvanized! The Rusty Jones treatment on 80's doges saved them big time. Kinda barking up the wrong tree here Neo. If you want to talk automotive shop with me you will likely loose. The Under carriage spraying of tar or rubber is fantastic as long as the prep to the under side has been done.
I sprayed goop on hundreds of cars in my time at ford. HUNDREDS! Not a joke. Maybe it a schiester operation where they just rip you off. But companies like Z-Bar have built and empire on something that does not work?
I have had loads LOADS ASS LOADS of cars come in for frame work or pan replacement and i have to chip that shit off with dry ice and a air chisel. So I dotn want to hear how it doe snot work. If the seal is compromised then yes but otherwise not so much. Often time bone heads think they can cover rust with coatings. Rust proofing is only for the under carrieage not the panels. Most time idiots get a chip on panels and leave it and leave it and leave it and guess what now its got surface rust. Then they leave it some more now there is a hole. I see idiots all the time in there brand new esclade with a paint chip. Months later notw its a surface rust etc.
Whoa, I thought I was reading a Alex levy post . 
Quoted from AkumaZeto:All porsches after 1978 are galvanized! The Rusty Jones treatment on 80's doges saved them big time. Kinda barking up the wrong tree here Neo. If you want to talk automotive shop with me you will likely loose. The Under carriage spraying of tar or rubber is fantastic as long as the prep to the under side has been done.
I sprayed goop on hundreds of cars in my time at ford. HUNDREDS! Not a joke. Maybe it a schiester operation where they just rip you off. But companies like Z-Bar have built and empire on something that does not work?
I have had loads LOADS ASS LOADS of cars come in for frame work or pan replacement and i have to chip that shit off with dry ice and a air chisel. So I dotn want to hear how it doe snot work. If the seal is compromised then yes but otherwise not so much. Often time bone heads think they can cover rust with coatings. Rust proofing is only for the under carrieage not the panels. Most time idiots get a chip on panels and leave it and leave it and leave it and guess what now its got surface rust. Then they leave it some more now there is a hole. I see idiots all the time in there brand new esclade with a paint chip. Months later notw its a surface rust etc.
I wonder if it was always like this, because the cryslers back in the early 80's that had rustproofing rusted just as fast as the ones that didn't.
My Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme still looks amazing 19 years in, rustproofed every year for the first 10 and now touchups. Even the mechanics that work on it comment on it. Undercarriage is quite good, doors are not rusted along the bottom, etc. Girlfriend's last two camries have looked brand new even at the 8 year mark after getting rustproofed yearly; we got a fantastic trade in on her last one because it looked so good and was maintained well and not smoked in. I live in eastern Canada, and we use plenty of salt in the winter. If it didn't work; we wouldn't do it.
It's a spray-on goopy runny stuff; not anything factory applied (they put it underneath, engine compartment sides, inside the doors/jams, inside the trunk lid, etc - any cavity or area that is exposed to water). And it's pretty gd incredible if you ask me.
I don't know what kind of rustproofing you're using but, wow. Guess it must not have been the stuff that works.
Quoted from SteveP3:It's a spray-on goopy runny stuff;
Likely the same stuff. I have a pint of it under my sink i will pull it out for a photo. I use a siphon gun to splatter it on.
Before I undercoat my own carriage I spray por 15 on as well.
Quoted from CaptainNeo:well the rustproofing they had in the early 80s' sucked bad.
Funny how when your knowledge of something is almost 30 years out of date, you can be wrong, huh? 
i just speak from personal experience and what i've seen myself. Can't say for now. Until my experience changes, that will continue to be my opinion. Apparently my van doesn't have the current rustproofing since ever caravan i've seen rusts out at the wheel wells badly.
Quoted from CaptainNeo:i just speak from personal experience and what i've seen myself. Can't say for now. Until my experience changes, that will continue to be my opinion. Apparently my van doesn't have the current rustproofing since ever caravan i've seen rusts out at the wheel wells badly.
the manufacturer doesn't do it, you gotta go somewhere and get it done 
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