Hey everybody! This guy can't tilt!

I'll give my 2 cents on Stern vs. everyone else, though. For a long time I thought "eh, Sterns just are not for me" because I really enjoyed the original themes and how a lot of it harkened back to my childhood and what I remembered seeing in arcades. There was tons of little toys and such that really made the games seem like these tiny little dioramas...the games felt "full". Comparing those to Stern, especially the dark ages older Sterns and the pro models, the Sterns just felt barren and empty. That was my surface impression.

When I got my first pin, Tales Of The Arabian Nights, a few years back, I had not played pins since the 90's in arcades. I basically learned to be a better player on TOTAN; to understand how rulesets work, how to exploit points, control the ball properly, get my shots where I wanted them to go via understanding of geometry, etc. When I got to the level of playing that it was actually a possibility to hit those end-game modes, I realized that you quickly "run out of game" on older pins. That doesn't mean they are not fun to play, nor does it mean that you can walk up to a machine and be a master on it in an afternoon, it just means that at a certain point you will have a certain skillset and understanding of that game to know how to consistently put up high point games. In comparison, the deeper rulesets of the modern Stern games will give you a bit more depth and flexibility in *how* you get to that point. That gives the games more replayability, if not more depth (in terms of how deep you can go into the game before you "run out of game"). Combine that with the (occasional) code updates coming in from Stern (which you are not getting on older machines), and you end up with games that are very rewarding for seasoned players. Maybe older games were more straightforward in their learning curve and with presenting what you need to do, but, any game is going to be confusing until you learn the rules. Stern Star Trek has good, deep rules, but you can also just shoot whatever lights up. You can exploit certain scoring methods on TOTAN to build up your game to ridiculous scores...or you can just shoot the genie and then shoot whatever lights up. I have plenty of pinball newbies come by my place and just not really get that pinball has rules or depth to it, and then when I explain how modes and scoring and such works to them, then you can see them actually trying to shoot for specific things instead of just trying to stop the ball from going down the center.

But what about the toys?! Well, because modern Stern's are becoming so much more popular, there is more of a market for the mods that, formerly, were dominated by old machines that were now in homes. Will a Pro model look barren out of box? Sure, but my TOTAN was no looker from the factory, the factory lamp, for example, was bland and ugly. Older playfields look better, no question...really, the older games art packages are almost always better, but you have to realize that once you're deep into the rulesets and gameplay you don't care about the art. The art is great for when you're not playing.

As for reliability: it's going to break, no matter what it is. Old or new, it's going to break. And you're going to need to learn how to fix it. You will often be in WAY over your head and just think "I hate this thing so much", but then you come to pinside, and ask for help, and, eventually, you fix it. Eventually, you might even learn a thing or two! But probably not, you'll probably just talk out your ass about how much you know but never help anyone else out in the tech forums because you're too lazy. Probably.

Can a newbie walk up to either a Stern or B/W and play it and enjoy it? Absolutely. Will a seasoned player be able to enjoy either? Sure. Both are good, it just comes down to two things: how much money do you want to spend, and what do you want to spend that money on. My answer to those questions are: all of it, all the things.

TOTAN is one of the best looking games ever made. But it is also shallow and easy to defeat. And when you have the game at home and learn to exploit things like skipping harder modes and even 2 modes when the ruby is lit you can get through quick and easy. This is probably one of the worst games to use as an example when comparing depth. Yes, you can run out of game easy with this one.

But - when I see a new game next to one of these masterpieces -

You might not "play" the artwork. But you can feel the game. Playfield, plastics, cabinet and backglass are all beautiful. Not cheap photo shop art slapped on. The dots and sounds grab you with show like during lighting lamp. You never see stuff like the shooting Stars ball saver. Man, a cage that surrounds the ball. Interactive toys like the lamp and genie. Its hard to believe it is only one ramp with diverters and magnets. A magnet that grabs the ball and sucks it into the playfield! Wholly S---.

To bad it was designed by a guy who turned into a total A-hole.

Unfortunately, I think one of those reasons is nostalgia, which is worthless in a rating, but takes a lot of impact.

As owner of both, I agree the theme is much better integrated in STTNG. But the shots in STTNG are harder to hit and the result is that the game does not flow nearly as well as ST Stern. ST Stern has wider ramp openings and the ramps are closer to the flippers making them easier to hit. The result is a super smooth shooting game that is easy to flow shots. In the end, Stern game is in my house, STTNG is migrated to the workshop / storage.

Being heavier is not a positive. It's a negative. The game should only be as heavy as it needs to be to not fall apart. None of my stern games are falling apart due to being too light.

Haha, yes. A couple days ago I decided to clean the subway, which was very dirty, and also the 3 VUKs. in order to do so, I had to disassemble quite a lot of the stuff under there, and for a while I was feeling a bit like poor Herbie Hart who took his thromdimbulator apart...

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Look at the average age of collectors. If nostalgia was the driving factor system 11's and early ss would rank higher / bring more money. You are more likely to see the titles drop if LCDs become big and make those nostalgic B/W titles dated.

Easier != better. Yes, you can rape the delta ramp in ST. You also don't get any feeling of accomplishment from it. If you like it great, but it doesn't make it superior.

None of the stern games are widebodies nor do they have near the amount of shit that sits on STTNG. A modern argument would be WOZ, not anything Stern has put out. The game is physically larger and has more features, it is going to weigh more. If you want to make a point then show us why Superpins or WOZ for that matter are unnecessarily heavy.

Stern trek is fun and has amazing flow, and depth for a decent pinballers lifetime it's also a barren wasteland compared to the average 90s Williams pin as far as gadgets go. As mentioned earlier the call outs are weak at best compared to sttng. Sttng isn't half the speed and has some clunk. In the end both games are great and earned their rank on pinside legitimately.

Easier game != better game. But I think easier shots makes for a lot more fun. It's way more fun to be flowing shots than bricking shots. Star Trek has uniquely easy to hit shots and the flow is top notch. I bet it would be the best shooting white wood in the world.

What is the last game that had a filled out playfield, TSPP? It seems like with stern you get one type of a game, or in the least a lot of them feel similar. With Williams, you had games like JM, TZ, and BSD. The code is more deep with stern but I don't think that is as important as it is made out to be. If you don't like cluttered playfields, you probably will think that Sterns are all better.

It is kind of funny but I guess I find games like Addams and sttng have the perfect amount of software to where it doesn't ever seem to get boring for me. In general I like stern and Bally Williams, but playing today a game like wcs94 feels like a more complete package to me than when I have had a chance to play a newer Stern like Kiss which seemed rather basic.

Kiss probably isn't a fair comparison. The code is incomplete and could take another 2.5 years before we know where it ends up. Stern and williams both had their fair share of abandoned games codewise anyways so WCS vs Monopoly maybe? They run in the same price range, they are both complete.

Can't recall too many Bally Williams that felt as basic playing as Kiss. Monopoly is a fun game as well. The depth of code usually takes a pretty long time to develop.

Why is it not fair? In a few months Kiss pro will be a year old since release. When Stern puts a complete product together like LOTR they knock it out of the park. But B/W did it more often. WCS & Monopoly? Is Monopoly complete? When I owned it there was no way to light community chest. But OK. They are both around $2K right? Monopoly is now 15 years old and down to that price and WCS is 22 years old and up to the price. Pinside rates WCS as #49 and Monopoly at #164.

LOTR was on sale for a long time and was developed because the programmer made it a pet project. B/W code was not done 1 year after it came out. Go on RGP and do some digging. It took time for them to become the polished games we love today.
Mind you some could still use some polishing.

Read the ROM revision sheets. Most changes were fixes for coinage and language type fixes. Bug fixes would be for things like timing issues so coils would not burn out. Not complete modes missing and wondering a year later if it will ever be complete. If we still had to change chips what is happening today would not be acceptable. I still have 1.0 in my MM, how does that game rate? Your example of using WCS only have ROM L-2 and I doubt it was not being worked on a year later. Neither is perfect. B/W had some clunkers. I'm just saying percent wise I love standing at a B/W game over newer ones.

Because software wise, kiss and wwe are really nothing like all their other recent games. That makes Kiss not the typical game for a software comparison.

B/W has that buttery smooth flipping. Stern can never match there mechanics for flipper mechs. However Stern does put out fun games and there code and lighting is far superior to B/W. Im just glad we have the option to choose. You cant go wrong with either they are just different.

Disagree. Stern flippers feel every bit as good.

Star Trek The Next Generation is the best pinball machine ever created.

I suppose a lot also comes down to the ability of the player. I can't think of a single non Stern game I can't get to the wizard mode on a regular basis, meaning I don't find them a challenge.
I moved Lotr, BDK, AC-DC, SM on as soon as I was able to reach and complete the wizard mode on a regular basis as well.
Different people look for different things in a game.

You must be amazing if you can get to acdc encore, valinor and super hero regularly. Seriously.

That's for sure For LOTR, I have to imagine WJxxxx is referring to destroying the ring? (which is pretty easy to achieve). Getting to "Encore" is super hard (never done it)...can't imagine what wizard mode he's referencing. If it's Encore, maybe he has the game set to 12 balls...one for each song. That would make it easier! Guess it all depends on how his machine is setup!

Nah, look at his high scores, he's crushing it.

But, back on topic, if we were to agree that older non-stern pins are easier to get to wizard mode on, my question is this: does it have to do with anything else besides code? Is there that striking of a difference between geometry, flipper power/feel, spacing of the pf, etc?

Edit for clarity: A difference between Stern and non-Stern, I mean.

Sterns remind me more of sys 11s with deeper code and lower buld quality and art. Very fun games, but are mostly not compleate package games like some of the bw.

Good perspective. To distill this down to the basics: Stern=Software, Williams=Hardware. It's a matter of what you want to pay for.

To me it's not really a good comparison. JJP are more of a modern BW. Stuffed with features, fantastic theme integration, complex playfields and great art packages, sound and lighting - plus the modern code to go with it. Stern very much still feel like they're the successors of DE/Sega, and they are both figuratively and literally. They have some definite winners, and code has improved enormously, but given the very hit or miss nature of their art, theme integration, some obvious cost cutting, use of DMD and sounds (and sometimes generic pfs / features) ... it's getting hard to see how the new prices can be justified - especially outside the US.

I'm just glad that competition and choice are finally coming. At these prices we should have it all.

Well, it certainly is to you. I implore the fact that there is no such thing as the single "best pinball machine ever created".

What is the single best painting ever created?
What is the single best movie ever created?
What is the single best hamburger ever created?

You see how what you are suggesting is a figment of your own imagination?

The Garden of Earthly Delights by Hieronymus Bosch

The_Garden_of_Earthly_Delights_by_Bosch_High_Resolution_2_o_o_(resized).jpg

Blade Runner

blade-runner-700_(resized).jpg

That's the hell portion, here's the full triptych...

The_Garden_of_Earthly_Delights_by_Bosch_High_Resolution_(1)_(resized).jpg

What is the single best hamburger ever created?

*From Charlie Nagreen.
He is not only my relative he was an "American claimant to the title of inventor of the hamburger in 1885".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Nagreen

So, not a figment of my imagination. It is a documented.. Fact. So, I technically have hamburger in my blood... I know my hamburgers man!

No it's Valinor, 3 times in under 2 weeks, Encore on AcDc
I only ever have my machines set up on factory, or harder, limited to 1 extra ball, tight tilt, etc.
What's the point of trying to kid yourself by making it mega easy just to post a score no one cares about. You soon get found out in competition. If you're really interested the majority of my major scores have either been on site, in competition or at friends houses.

Just because you're not good enough to reach those scores, doesn't mean others aren't.

Please...spare me the bravado. I know I'm not worthy of getting to Valinor or Encore. I mean, it's possible I guess, but highly unlikely. My comment was a bit broader...I've played in leagues with some darn good players and NONE of them could reach Valinor 3 times in under 2 weeks. If you are that good, I imagine you are a highly ranked, competitive player. Good for you!

Just responding to your patronising, condescending and sarcastic comments - no bravado required.

KISS, WWE, Xmen, GoT (continuous fixes), Avengers (just finally fixed),WoF, AP, RCT, Striker Xtreme, etc
I think you might have your manufacturers mixed up on code?
Only the last 5 years have there been improvements with the exceptions of LOTR, TSPP, RBION, and SM.
Most of the games code in past 15 years was average at best.
Some games are unfinishable or still have bugs that seasoned players or owners will go WTF.
Most games code is taking 2-3 years to get fixed for proper playability, if at all.
BLY/WMS limits were based on memory technology, not endless corrections or released games with unfinished code.
It has become the new Stern "standard".

"Stern just keep in working".
Ask an any operator, and you may realize that this is inaccurate. Many corners have been cut in the past, and continue to be now. Build quality is dependent on conditions, but complexity is not the nature of most Stern machines for reason. Home environment is different.
Many Stern routed machines are trashed, while BLY/WMS games still being operated. SPIKE looks like it will help in the long run.

However, NIB 90s BLY/WMS machines had overly complex engineering designs (TZ, STTNG, RS, etc) and underdesigned power supplies.

Design engineering of a well restored game indicates good performance, the reason Stern games "seem" to be more reliable is their electronics are new, and mechanical designs are simpler in features. Most in fact are rehashed of existing design features from BLY/WMS games (magnets assemblies for example).

Stern flipper designs HAVE improved.

Most System 11 games are built like tanks comparative to modern Sterns.

You have evaluate decades of machines for comparison not the last 2-3 years with titles like TWD, AC/DC, or MET.
Stern needs to raise the bar on their production standards.

Ever see a 2003 LOTR (Whitestar) on a route?
You will not like it...

Triumph of Death
Pieter Brueghel the Elder
1562 AD, Renaissance
Realism painting
Museo del Prado
Madrid, Spain

Extreme depth of detail at full size.
Available at 3/4 SIZE (maximum) at Posters.com.
Museum quality glicee recommended.
You will need a big wall...

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Right, I personally Know WJ. He has most definatley got to Encore and Valinor. So stop your whining and try harder and or play more.

Never seen it done at mine though. This Thursday, W?

Well I won't be getting to Valinor at yours now that you've sold it. Once the right mini flipper is sorted on AcDc I'll give Encore my full attention
Will have to stick with getting to Kiss Army, Portal, and Final Battle for now - still can't manage Dark Room on Xmen though, as soon as new board arrives that'll be the next focus, until Ghostbusters arrives?

Grow a thicker skin...again, very few people get to Valinor on a bi-weekly basis. If you do, then I am wildly impressed. Really. Would actually love to see a video of your skills. Let me know if any YouTube video's available. Anyone who gets to the modes you boast about on a regular basis is a truly rare, gifted player.

You should buy a Stern ST... it's an awesome game. Fantastic integration of sound and lights...totally fun to play. Once the ball is live, any thoughts of Sterns being cheaply built will leave your mind...

Still not the single best. There is no such thing. The creator of a thing only makes it possible, not the best. Best is a matter of opinion.

Again, does not exist. Best is a matter of opinion.

Nah. Try doing a loop pass on Corvette or AFM. Now try doing it on KISS or metallica.

It's like night and day, unfortunately. Stern flippers are just clumsier.

What is a loop pass?

William/Bally or Stern games is never a good idea buying a game on other people's opinion.
I will occasionally play a MM, but I do not desire to ever own one, even at a lower price. I have others much higher on my wanted list.

I can be playing Metallica here then switch over to my WMS games and they play the same. meh

I've got some of the best games from Bally, Williams and Stern.

I avoid the games that I don't like from all 3 manufacturers.

Makes my collection all good.

It's like the "Picard Maneuver" without the cool factor, as the ball drains.
In essence an orbit shot shot that ends badly.
(Drum roll)

It is a loop pass. If you liked pinball, you'd know.

Stern worked for Williams and Williams designed games for Stern. So what was the question?

If these games are too easy for you, what games are hard!?!

I am impressed of someone gets to Valinor frequently. Those are some long LOTR games. I have got it twice, both times when I owned the game. Even "There and Back Again" takes close to 30 minutes.
There are certainly are people who own games to beat them. This is called the "Xbox generation" for achievement points.

PotDC. 4 winds was easy enough to get to, but getting to Gauntlet I never managed despite owning it for many months.
TSPP. Closest I got to SDMEWM was needing just one more Couch Jackpot.
WPT. Kiefer Invitational is proving a damn sight harder than anything else I have attempted to reach, but I WILL get there - eventually.
IM. Do or Die multiball is just never going to happen.

These certainly aren't what I'd consider hard games to rack up good scores on, but hard games to reach the wizard mode.

I'm a fair way before the X-Box generation! It must be my own sense of drive to push myself to a set goal, and autistic tendencies.
I'm exactly the same away from pinball, whether it's other hobbies (Which over the years have included Poker, Darts, Fly Fishing, Hockey, Chess to name a few. Most of which I've either represented my country or been to the national finals multiple times) or my work life. I always try and push above and beyond expectations. Maybe that's why I can afford to own a machine in the first place!

I truly believe that to be good at anything in life takes hard work and practice. "Natural Talent" can only get you so far.