(Topic ID: 351759)

Stern Pinball- Tabletop Epoxy approaching 1K plays results

By dyopp21

8 months ago


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  • 38 posts
  • 17 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 16 days ago by PinMario
  • Topic is favorited by 20 Pinsiders

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#1 8 months ago

I've been toying with the idea of trying a two part tabletop epoxy on a playfield to see how it would hold up. I searched the internet to see what I could find out from others but couldn't find any info on it, so there was nothing left to do but bite the bullet and give a shot. I did this in November, then took it straight to our bar so it would get a LOT of plays. We have a dedicated group of players and often a couple of tournaments a week with 40-50+ players plus lots of casual play the rest of the week.
The PF was in decent shape. Had a few rough spots I had to touch up and inserts were falling out and were cupped. I replaced the inserts and sanded the entire playfield very lightly just to clean it up some, then touched up a few bad spots. I replaced all the keyline circles around the inserts, including the "circle with triangle" around all the bonus inserts by scanning the PF with a see-through doc scanner and importing that into illustrator, then using black vinyl cut on my Silhouette vinyl cutter.
Here's a before pic:
IMG_1317 (resized).JPGIMG_1317 (resized).JPG

A few of my concerns were yellowing and the tabletop epoxy not being able to stand up to the abuse of the ball and immediately getting all scratched up, even within the first few plays. I purchased a UV resistant epoxy to try and minimize the yellowing.
I mixed a total of 6 ounces of epoxy per square foot of playfield (32 ounces total). I made sure the playfield was absolutely level using small camper jacks as well as putting a straight edge longways on the pf and cranking out the slight sag using the same type camper jacks. I used painters tape along the outer edges on the underside to make the dripcicles easier to remove after it hardened. I then flooded the entire pf with the epoxy and let it run into all the holes and off the edges. I also hit it with my torch to remove the small bubbles as it cured. Here is the result:
IMG_1362 (resized).JPGIMG_1362 (resized).JPG

After cleanup and reassembly:
IMG_1371 (resized).jpgIMG_1371 (resized).jpg
IMG_1376 (resized).JPGIMG_1376 (resized).JPG
I didn't sand the epoxy it all. It is exactly as I poured it. Also using tabletop epoxy has the advantage of not eating up the vinyl I used for the keylines and I didn't have to dress out in all that PPE nor protect my shop from overspray. Just pour it and watch it run.

Here it is after I got it back up and running:
IMG_1377 (resized).JPGIMG_1377 (resized).JPG

I've been keeping a close eye on it as it has gained plays at the bar and I'm happy to report that not only has it not shown any dimpling, it has so far shown no major etching/scratching from the ball. In fact I can see no real wear on it yet even at the inlanes. I wax my PF's about once every 10 days and I would estimate it's gotten around 1K plays at this point (I need to pull an audit on it next time I'm at the bar to confirm).
Here's a pic of it at the bar:
IMG_1380 (resized).JPGIMG_1380 (resized).JPG

It plays smooth as butter. Love the roll of the ball on that epoxy surface.
If you'd like to check it out in action, it gets featured on our tournament streams every week, just jump over to https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2059012825 and it's the first game on camera at our latest tournament from this past Saturday.
Yopp

#2 8 months ago

That’s a great idea and write up.

How does it play and ‘feel, ? Does it feel like a clearcoated game and play really fast? Does it have some other kind of feel?
I know that’s kind of subjective, but when you play games from different manufacturers, or play on a hard top, and they all kind of have a different feel to them.

#3 8 months ago
Quoted from Wmsfan:

That’s a great idea and write up.
How does it play and ‘feel, ? Does it feel like a clearcoated game and play really fast? Does it have some other kind of feel?
I know that’s kind of subjective, but when you play games from different manufacturers, or play on a hard top, and they all kind of have a different feel to them.

It plays like a cleared PF to me, but I agree that can be subjective.

#4 8 months ago

Impressive. Nice Job. What was the the product you used? Thank you for sharing.

#5 8 months ago

Yeah thanks for taking a chance on something fascinating and sharing with amazing photos! Do you plan on taking more periodic pics like every 6 mos or something like that? I've always kind of wondered about this stuff for repairs and have used some stuff in the past and its worked out so this is awesome to see.

#6 8 months ago
Quoted from pokerag2:

Impressive. Nice Job. What was the the product you used? Thank you for sharing.

MAS Tabletop Pro

#7 8 months ago
Quoted from Whistles: Do you plan on taking more periodic pics like every 6 mos or something like that?

Yes. I will leave it in this high traffic environment and monitor/document. So far I’ve been very impressed, but let’s see where we are in a few months.

#8 8 months ago

Very cool experiment, thank you for taking the time! I'm a very DIY kinda guy and 2PAC scares the shit out of me. I did the canned version for a non-pin project, while it turned out good, the prep and PPE was a bit much. In between coats I wondered how much poison leaked through the swim goggles into my eyeballs.

#9 8 months ago

Looks a little thicc

#10 8 months ago
Quoted from dr_nybble:

Looks a little thicc

It’s about 1/8”. I’d say about as thick as a hardtop, maybe just a tad thicker.

#11 8 months ago

Great idea. I was thinking of this and a bondo prior to printing but got laughed out of threads.

#12 8 months ago

It looks fantastic.

#13 8 months ago
Quoted from Kkoss24:

Great idea. I was thinking of this and a bondo prior to printing but got laughed out of thre

There will be some criticisms here as well (this is Pinside after all). It’s ok though since I’m the one that has to live with results. So far so good.

#14 8 months ago

Was it thick enough that you had to adjust switches/drops etc?

#15 8 months ago

What would you think about using cut doll rods to fill holes and let them stick up a bit to plug holes prior to pour? Cut shims for any odd shaped openings. Would that be worth a try?

#16 8 months ago
Quoted from slochar:

Was it thick enough that you had to adjust switches/drops etc?

Didn’t have to adjust the switches any more than I would on any other “bring it back to life” resto. The drops were remounted just as I removed them. No issues with them.

#17 8 months ago

I know it’s a thin pour and tapers at openings but would you benefit from it being flat? Meaning what the pre ious post was asking about installing everything topside.

#18 8 months ago
Quoted from Kkoss24:

What would you think about using cut doll rods to fill holes and let them stick up a bit to plug holes prior to pour? Cut shims for any odd shaped openings. Would that be worth a try?

Not sure I exactly understand the question. I just let it run. In spots where the post screws go into the PF (or any screw), I used drill bit in reverse to dig through the clear coat to the wood. I also used a dremel with a sanding wheel to clean up any larger holes for things like GI bulbs, sling shot switches, etc etc. It’s not completely free of tedium, but I’d say no worse than a hard top, etc.

#19 8 months ago
Quoted from dyopp21:

Not sure I exactly understand the question. I just let it run. In spots where the post screws go into the PF (or any screw), I used drill bit in reverse to dig through the clear coat to the wood. I also used a dremel with a sanding wheel to clean up any larger holes for things like GI bulbs, sling shot switches, etc etc. It’s not completely free of tedium, but I’d say no worse than a hard top, etc.

Very nice work you’ve done. I’ll check in with this thread for sure. Have you done any epoxy tables? There are some real creative specimens I’ve seen. I really would like to try one in the Spring so I can do it in the garage.

#20 8 months ago
Quoted from dyopp21:

Not sure I exactly understand the question. I just let it run. In spots where the post screws go into the PF (or any screw), I used drill bit in reverse to dig through the clear coat to the wood. I also used a dremel with a sanding wheel to clean up any larger holes for things like GI bulbs, sling shot switches, etc etc. It’s not completely free of tedium, but I’d say no worse than a hard top, etc.

Sorry, I was referring to post 14. I wouldn’t think there would be any adjustments (I was thinking of the tapered edge), but you just answered my question. I would imagine the thickness ended up about 1/32nd or so. So basically pour until it levels and covers all areas. Excess will drop off in holes annd over the edges.

#21 8 months ago

That looks like a fun pin by the way .

#22 8 months ago
Quoted from dyopp21:

I've been toying with the idea of trying a two part tabletop epoxy on a playfield to see how it would hold up. I searched the internet to see what I could find out from others but couldn't find any info on it, so there was nothing left to do but bite the bullet and give a shot. I did this in November, then took it straight to our bar so it would get a LOT of plays. We have a dedicated group of players and often a couple of tournaments a week with 40-50+ players plus lots of casual play the rest of the week.
The PF was in decent shape. Had a few rough spots I had to touch up and inserts were falling out and were cupped. I replaced the inserts and sanded the entire playfield very lightly just to clean it up some, then touched up a few bad spots. I replaced all the keyline circles around the inserts, including the "circle with triangle" around all the bonus inserts by scanning the PF with a see-through doc scanner and importing that into illustrator, then using black vinyl cut on my Silhouette vinyl cutter.
Here's a before pic:
[quoted image]
A few of my concerns were yellowing and the tabletop epoxy not being able to stand up to the abuse of the ball and immediately getting all scratched up, even within the first few plays. I purchased a UV resistant epoxy to try and minimize the yellowing.
I mixed a total of 6 ounces of epoxy per square foot of playfield (32 ounces total). I made sure the playfield was absolutely level using small camper jacks as well as putting a straight edge longways on the pf and cranking out the slight sag using the same type camper jacks. I used painters tape along the outer edges on the underside to make the dripcicles easier to remove after it hardened. I then flooded the entire pf with the epoxy and let it run into all the holes and off the edges. I also hit it with my torch to remove the small bubbles as it cured. Here is the result:
[quoted image]
After cleanup and reassembly:
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
I didn't sand the epoxy it all. It is exactly as I poured it. Also using tabletop epoxy has the advantage of not eating up the vinyl I used for the keylines and I didn't have to dress out in all that PPE nor protect my shop from overspray. Just pour it and watch it run.
Here it is after I got it back up and running:
[quoted image]
I've been keeping a close eye on it as it has gained plays at the bar and I'm happy to report that not only has it not shown any dimpling, it has so far shown no major etching/scratching from the ball. In fact I can see no real wear on it yet even at the inlanes. I wax my PF's about once every 10 days and I would estimate it's gotten around 1K plays at this point (I need to pull an audit on it next time I'm at the bar to confirm).
Here's a pic of it at the bar:
[quoted image]
It plays smooth as butter. Love the roll of the ball on that epoxy surface.
If you'd like to check it out in action, it gets featured on our tournament streams every week, just jump over to https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2059012825 and it's the first game on camera at our latest tournament from this past Saturday.
Yopp

That’s awesome. It makes logical sense, and the results are impressive thus far!
Can’t wait to follow along and see how it holds up over the years

#23 8 months ago

This is really interesting. Thanks for posting all the detail. Could you say more about the "see-through doc scanner" bit? E.g., make and model of the scanner, any tricks for getting a good playfield scan?

#24 8 months ago
Quoted from williampietri:This is really interesting. Thanks for posting all the detail. Could you say more about the "see-through doc scanner" bit? E.g., make and model of the scanner, any tricks for getting a good playfield scan?

Hp 4670. There are several threads about it

#25 8 months ago

right on, ty for posting, awesome idea, same feelings about the PPE needed for 2K

#26 7 months ago

This is really cool! I'm considering restoring my Black Hole and not having to deal with 2PAC sounds amazing.

#27 7 months ago

This is an interesting experiment.

A material that's easier to handle without a bunch of PPE gear would be fantastic. Unfortunately, the big downside to epoxy is that it yellows over time. How much time with this UV resistant epoxy is anyone's guess.

I've seen a few playfields over the years where individuals have tried alternate materials to add a protective layer to a playfield, and some were horribly yellowed (shellac, oil-based varnishes, maybe some other materials). The playfields are unfortunately unsalvageable in that condition, since there's no way to remove the protective layer without also taking off the artwork.

So, I'm interested to see not only how the epoxy holds up to wear, but also how long it takes to start yellowing.

#28 7 months ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

This is an interesting experiment.
A material that's easier to handle without a bunch of PPE gear would be fantastic. Unfortunately, the big downside to epoxy is that it yellows over time. How much time with this UV resistant epoxy is anyone's guess.
I've seen a few playfields over the years where individuals have tried alternate materials to add a protective layer to a playfield, and some were horribly yellowed (shellac, oil-based varnishes, maybe some other materials). The playfields are unfortunately unsalvageable in that condition, since there's no way to remove the protective layer without also taking off the artwork.
So, I'm interested to see not only how the epoxy holds up to wear, but also how long it takes to start yellowing.

The yellowing was my second concern (after durability). I watched a bunch of videos that went over the yellowing of deep pour epoxy. People showed how badly it would yellow when they would do a "cast pour" which is filling a large container with it, then putting it out in the sun. They also compared this with a thin pour (tabletop) and over a few years the yellowing wasn't evident like it showed up in the deep pour. Of course avoiding direct sunlight is a must. It's going to be interesting to see how this stuff holds up, but after doing several playfields with coat after coat of Varathane (which has held up way better than I expected), doing it this way was easier, faster, and far less messy with the overspray and such. If it stays clear and continues to hold up as it has so far I'll be a happy camper. At this point only time and a lot of plays (which it is getting now) will tell.

#29 7 months ago
Quoted from williampietri:

This is really interesting. Thanks for posting all the detail. Could you say more about the "see-through doc scanner" bit? E.g., make and model of the scanner, any tricks for getting a good playfield scan?

Just realized I never shared what see-thru scanner I use. I know there is an older, larger one you can buy used, but I have this smaller one that I picked up a few years ago called "Doxie." I've been using this thing for over 5 years and it's been rock solid. It is self contained, runs on a couple of AA batteries and writes the scanned images to a memory card. I scan and import the images into illustrator where I create the outlines for the vinyl cutter. It's plenty big enough to get the graphics around the inserts (see the image on the small screen from an original scan of the "Pinball" playfield). In some cases for larger areas I've stitched together multiple scans in photoshop.

IMG_1604 (resized).JPGIMG_1604 (resized).JPG
IMG_1605 (resized).JPGIMG_1605 (resized).JPG

2 weeks later
#31 7 months ago

I’d love to see a vid of you pouring the epoxy. Do you just dump it all in the middle or try to pour it in strips down the length of the playfield? Does it just run off the sides or do you have forms on the edges?

Thanks for creating this thread - very cool!

#32 7 months ago
Quoted from Damonator:

I’d love to see a vid of you pouring the epoxy. Do you just dump it all in the middle or try to pour it in strips down the length of the playfield? Does it just run off the sides or do you have forms on the edges?
Thanks for creating this thread - very cool!

I'll have to get footage of that on a future project, but, put simply I make sure the PF is absolutely level and wrap the edge of it with 1.5" painters tape to make a "wall" that won't allow the epoxy to run off the edge until I've got it spread the way I want it. When I apply the epoxy I pour it in a meandering pattern around the playfield avoiding larger holes such as saucers and the large hole at the bottom where the ball return will be mounted. I have a latex glove on the free hand and use it to spread the epoxy over the entire playfield, making sure it makes it to the edges and up against the painter's tape "wall." I let it freely run through the holes in the playfield. It's thick enough so not a lot of it drops through said holes. Once the PF is completely coated and starting to self level I grab one end of the painters tape and slowly walk around the PF, pulling the tape off as I go, letting the epoxy run off the edges of it at that point. That's pretty much it other than hitting it with a torch every now and then in the early curing process to get the bubbles to release. Then just let it sit a couple days until hardened, then set it aside to finish the long cure.

#33 7 months ago

Just a FYI for someone doing epoxy. Do not point the torch at the epoxy. Wave it over the surface with the flame parallel to the surface.

#34 7 months ago
Quoted from The_Pump_House:

Just a FYI for someone doing epoxy. Do not point the torch at the epoxy. Wave it over the surface with the flame parallel to the surface.

Good point. It can be scorched pretty easily. Taking that a step further, I’d say anyone thinking about doing this: proceed with caution. I’m not recommending anyone else do this, and if you do, I suggest watching hours and hours of how to’s on YouTube first all about the process and the possibly pitfalls. I’m doing these as tests. While I have an environment where I can put them to very high volume of plays testing, only time will tell on the long term performance.

#35 7 months ago

There are some very good uv resistant epoxies out there. I poured a block with some stuff cast in it about five years ago. My wife has had it sitting on a windowsill in full hot sun the whole time. I see no yellowing at all so far. Pinball machines tend to live in places with much less sun exposure. I wonder if you could find a product that poured a thinner layer? What you’re using sounds a tad thick, but maybe it’s not an issue? I assume there’s some some cleanup work for the holes and edges?

#36 7 months ago
Quoted from pinheadpierre:

There are some very good uv resistant epoxies out there. I poured a block with some stuff cast in it about five years ago. My wife has had it sitting on a windowsill in full hot sun the whole time. I see no yellowing at all so far. Pinball machines tend to live in places with much less sun exposure. I wonder if you could find a product that poured a thinner layer? What you’re using sounds a tad thick, but maybe it’s not an issue? I assume there’s some some cleanup work for the holes and edges?

I personally think the thickness on my first project was just about right (but if anything, it may be just a hair thicker than some may like, but everything works and switches are fine) and has played perfectly. I’d say it’s no thicker than a hard top (and definitely won’t be thicker than version two of the hardtop which is going to double in thickness). This one turned out just a bit thinner because I warmed the epoxy before mixing and I turned the heat up in my shop to 85 degrees for a full 24 hours before the pour. The thing I was worried about most, scratches, it has way exceeded my expectations. I have to go to the bar later today and my first test project should be headed for 2K plays if it hasn’t already hit that mark. I’ll grab some closeups of the inlane to flipper feed. I’m shocked at how well it’s doing.

4 months later
#37 3 months ago
Quoted from dyopp21:

Test 2 is underway.

I just recently got the Doxie also, very cool product. Fairly fast scans, quality is just OK. Good for small stuff and tight spots. The self contained unit is SO HANDY! I still use my HP for bigger scans. Found mine on Offerup for like $40, absolutely worth to have another tool in the toolbox.

2 months later
#38 16 days ago

Any updates on the long term performance ?
I'm almost ready to coat a Blackout PF myself.

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