(Topic ID: 183274)

Stern Pinball Anti-glare glass

By DCFAN

7 years ago


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    18
    #29 7 years ago

    Dear all,

    FYI: I may add that I`ve spoken to Gary nearly 8 years ago to use my glass in their games.
    He made it clear that this is an aftermarket product - no interest.
    A few months back I wrote Jody to think about using my glass in their Premium and LE games
    since Stern started to sell aftermarket products too and the Euro is weak at the moment.
    No progress here.
    The pic with the glass explained is full of discrepances, starting with the glass thickness (2.5mm) + coating.
    So the coating (whatever material it is) has to be at least 1mm thick on each side to fit the games properly without
    rattling.
    If this information is just a sample for the interested to understand the coated layers better and the dims are just there
    to have at least something... so be it.
    Please stay calm and wait until someone has seen and compared the glass with others which are available.
    I hope that unbiased information will be available soon.

    Roman

    #37 7 years ago

    Follow the white rabbit...hmm...again...please take a look here

    http://tru-vue.com/solution/museum-glass/

    then klick "Technical Info & Resources".

    Deja Vu ?

    Assuming Stern Pinball uses Tru Vue`s Museum Glass then there are several questions I'd ask before purchasing.

    1. What is the total thickness of the glass ?
    2. Is it tempered ?
    3. How does the glass behave if it's elevated ?

    FYI: Museum glass is used in face-on applications and it's not tempered. Acrylic glass is shatterfree.

    Roman

    #43 7 years ago
    Quoted from DCFAN:

    I can't imagine them using non-tempered glass. That would be a huge liability risk. One person having an artery severed and Stern could be be ruined.
    I would guess that Stern is having custom sheets made at the correct thickness and tempered.

    If the product description from Sterns store is exactly the glass which is sold, then its not tempered.
    Tru Vue is not offering tempered glass as far as I`m aware of and
    2.5mm thick glass would shatter in the oven during the tempering process if the information is correct.
    Maybe someone can call Stern and ask the questions I mentioned above.
    I`m biased and I can only provide investigative questions.

    #111 7 years ago

    Dave is right and the reason are opto-physical laws.

    As soon as Stern`s anti reflective glass will be available in Germany we will test this sheet as well in the lab.
    The same way we did with JJP`s Invisiglass and also regular glass vs Optiwhite or Starfire glass.

    Namsan Merci pour le video ... tres bonne travail

    pbglass (resized).jpgpbglass (resized).jpg

    #125 7 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    bullshit. Remember when PDI was experimenting with it and developing it? on RGP? This is exactly the way it was advertised. "will Eliminate backglass and display glare". That was the sole purpose of it's development. Then after it didn't work as they intended, they started changing and downplaying it's ability to do it's job, yet keep the insane price.

    PDI wasn´t experimenting, we did and they were offering the product in the US. Period.

    When I advertised the product the first time (July 2008) in Germany (before you could find any posting about it on RGP) then I`ve provided the following pics
    http://www.flippermarkt.de/community/forum/showthread.php?t=62539
    Here you (especially Neo) can see that there are still some DMD reflections but they`re greatly reduced.
    The thread title is: "I guarantee you an absolute new pinball quality". Did I lie ?

    Quoted from Pinballpal:

    So if I am reading this chart correctly PDI is still the best choice. Curious to see how Sterns glass stacks up. The new alien pin offers a anti glare glass as well could you do tests on that too.

    To understand and read the chart correctly you need to know how the human eye reacts to certain wavelengths.
    The chart below helps...

    Between 550 and 560 nanometres our eyes have the highest sensitivity. Invisiglass has >2% reflection and Roman/PDI has <0.5%. That been said you take a look at the chart above and you can see that the interesting wavespectrum is between 470nm and 670nm.

    It would be highly appreciated if Stern or JJP would post such information instead of using misleading marketing techniques.

    Btw. Heighway Pinball is using their own anti reflective glass with their games.

    Eyesensitivity.svg (resized).pngEyesensitivity.svg (resized).png

    #199 7 years ago
    Quoted from delt31:

    too bad this thread is turning into a fight b/w if PDI glass is worth it or not. I would love to hear about whether stern's glass is actually good or not once it's available. To the guys buying it without hearing feedback first, thanks for helping the rest of us.

    The easiest way for those who bought Stern´s glass first and who want to/should share their experience with the community first hand
    is, to put the glass on a table with another reference sheet and to hover between the two sheets like Namsan did (1:28) or myself.


    There is no easier way without using sophisticated tools to show how the glass handles reflection.

    Good Luck

    #226 7 years ago
    Quoted from DCFAN:

    Those in Europe already have a cheap option. For those in the US this could be a 20% price reduction if the product is as good as Invisiglass.

    Technically you should have the same price options in the US since JJP is offering his Invisiglass and
    Stern has started their marketing campain with HD Glass.
    I can see a really interesting marketing phenomenon here.
    Have you ever thought about how it can be that JJP`s Invisiglass is more than $130 cheaper in Germany than in the US ?
    But it`s made in the US...

    #247 7 years ago
    Quoted from DCFAN:

    What is the price for Invisiglass and Roman/PDI in Germany?

    Invisiglass pricing in Germany(Europe) can be found here:
    http://www.shop.freddys-pinball-paradise.de/index.php?n=40&s=490&e=50&m=&p=1&o=1&guid=&l=1&q=&lang=e&lnge=1

    Roman/PDI pricing can be found here:
    http://www.pinballnews.com/learn/glass/index.html

    Please consider that both links show pricing including VAT (local sales tax) which is 19% in Germany

    Quoted from Monster_Bash:

    Anybody think this picture from Stern is a little BS? Notice the marks on the floor. They either moved the machine.. or changed the angle of the picture to get the glare from the shop light off the glass.
    I mean.. you can still see the translight glare in both pictures. Yet the super bright shop light is magically 100% gone? Well except for the tiniest little part of the light still left.
    It's extremely deceptive..and borderline dishonest

    The reflection from the game title (Walking Dead) is not as rich and bright as on the left pic, so I`d say that there is a noticable improvement in comparison to a regular sheet.
    The light conditions in Stern`s new factory are good (a lot of artificial light everywhere).
    Considering this as given my next thought is that in darker spots the reflections will increase (Neo your call).

    I can image that Stern`s new glass might be somewhere at a reflective rate close to 1% and
    I`m curious to see the first test results and impressions.

    24
    #267 7 years ago
    Quoted from DCFAN:

    Why hasn't Roman glass been offered in the US at a much lower price since the Euro is no longer worth so much more than the dollar?
    Why not have more than one distributor? PDI always seems to be the highest price for almost everything.

    Pinball is a hobby for many or the most of us... but it is business for a few as well.
    Please always remember that.
    The pace is picking up and today we`ve reached a point where you have
    to pay for the pizza plus each topping separately and a few years back you`ve got a stuffed pizza
    at the same price.
    Inflation ?
    Maybe, just a little.
    GREEEEEEEEEEEED ?
    This is what I see and what I`m not willing to support anymore talking about buying NIB games, used or shopped games and corresponding after market products.
    The only protest mark you can set is not to buy a product.
    Blaming others makes no sense you have to start with yourself.
    You have the power and not the manufacturer/supplier.

    My glass:
    Looking back to 2008 my idea was to provide something new to the pinball community
    with a visible effect on gameplay perception.
    The demand grew nationally and internationally very quick and I had to find a solution
    to make the product available for many at a reasonable price level.
    I had and have no influence on pricing from others.

    Today my goal is to find more interested pinheads or shops in the US to make the product accessible
    for many at reasonable prices (adapted to the market situation) since I do see now that the price point in the US is
    affecting the buyers emotions negatively.
    This was not intended at all.
    Pinball is fun and a hobby. This is what and how it should be.

    Roman

    #276 7 years ago
    Quoted from gweempose:

    Very interesting. Does this mean that Joey's exclusivity will be ending soon?

    Agreements between two parties should stay between those two.
    What I can say is, that we (Joey and I) have spoken last year and I`m not a person who likes to sit on a bench while others play the game. Especially in these dynamic times.

    <blockquote cite="#3654750">I'm sure cointaker or mezel would easily help distribute your excellent product. Joey makes all of us here in the us take it in the chocolate starfish. Competition is needed and since your product is superior it would sell like hotcakes.</blockquote>

    Thanks for your advice. As written above I have no influence on price politics from others, but I do understand that you have to keep a price level to compensate currency deviation as a commercial seller, so please don`t blame Joey for this.
    Live and let live.

    #413 7 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    again, I don't think anyone is a chump that buys it. I just try to inform the ones thinking about buying it, that it's not as perfect as some say. Thats' all. because I listened to the guys that said it's so perfect. eliminates everything, can't even tell it's there. all the same shit.
    So hearing all this shit. I had high expectations. Figured that for the price, it must be perfect. Backbox glare and DMD glare...GONE. Awesome. $300 is steep but if it works, might be worth it for some games. Awesome. Can't wait. half price sale on JJP. Even better. Lets give it a shot......install it...... :/ I was pissed the fawk off. Now if there were real people saying real things it actually did. I could have made a more informed decision. So you need both sides of the fence. I try to be a realist and show the new people who don't know, what it actually does and how it actually performs. Not this fairtale shit some of these guys do. So others don't feel they have been ripped off like I did.
    So I repeat myself often. Yup, just like the guys that talk it up. Not everyone reads every thread. and not every newb that is looking into buying it reads every thread. So when people talk it up, I say the other side of the spectrum, so the person reading can make an informed decision. If they think it works good enough to justify the $300 price tag. So be it. but at least they went in knowing the full story.

    Hi Neo,

    you´re repeating yourself and I do the same, but when I´ve asked you to name those guys who told you that you won`t see any reflections I don´t get any response from you.
    Here is something I found especially for you dated back to January 2009.
    https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.games.pinball/oikWHKfuZkQ
    Tags: DMD glare
    Please read those postings very, very carefully and stop claiming something you can`t prove.
    If you should have questions then ask them.
    There are a lot of very friendly people around here to help you out.

    #435 7 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    but it's not worth my time to go through RGP and look at all the threads we've talked about. It would be like going through an encyclopedia looking for specific sentences, without knowing the pages or volumes they were on. You remember reading it and talking about it when it happened, but try and find it years later. Not going to happen. There are plenty of us from RGP that were on there. Anyone that cared about the antiglare glass when it was in the developmental process, knows how it was boasted about and what it was initially designed to accomplish.

    RGP (resized).JPGRGP (resized).JPG

    #438 7 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    it was talked about before that. Discussed in depth, when it was being developed and worked on like the polerizing film. There are way more threads than that one talking about it.

    When was it ? Who told you about those fairytales about zero reflection in all conditions and viewing angles ?
    People talk a lot and if they can add value to the written word by providing additional information (links, pics, videos, references a.s.o) then their argumentation is worth considering and if not, it´s just hot air.

    For instance:

    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    think that's just regular glass. All the sheets look normal. I've seen this video years ago. It's just standard tempered pinball glass.

    Who told you that the glass in the video is standard tempered pinball glass ?

    #440 7 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    the video looks like it. reflective as all shit.

    It´s not

    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    As far as discussion, it was when people were talking about having it made. Through tests on sections they tested, they were hoping for all glare to be eliminated. Might not have been you. There was others trying to develop it , with the polerizing film.

    I can go to bed now because I thought all the time you were blaming me for not providing facts.
    But how could you trust those who were hoping and trying to develop something and didn`t succeed ?

    #455 7 years ago

    Is there a chance that those who have already purchased a Stern HD Glass make a short video like this one ?

    It´s made within 5 minutes and you would have a very good estimation on how it performs in a game.

    Packed and stacked boxes with pinball glass are nice to see, but I can imagine that the interested would like
    to see a 101 comparison with more grip.

    I´d like to make a video and lab test but there is no Stern HD Glass available over here yet and I don´t know if it will shipped with Premium/LE games in the future.

    #515 6 years ago

    Hey @richiewrench,

    if you still have your Stern sheets available, I`d offer you or alternatively anybody else a deal ?

    You ship one Stern HD Glass to me (Germany) and I´ll return one sheet of mine in exchange.

    #548 6 years ago
    Quoted from fosaisu:

    Roman, I really hope you line up new distributors in the US that can bring the cost comparable to what's charged in Europe. You'll sell A LOT more glass if you can do that!

    Thank you for your kind and motivating words.
    This will be very challenging in the US since there is a lot of misleading and dishonest information about anti reflective
    pinball glass around and the community needs to be informed too with realistic comparisons.
    Some pinball makers use the hype to push their products into the scene without
    providing any technical glass specs at all. It´s more irritating than helping.
    Like Denzel used to say: If you don´t read the newspaper, you´re uninformed...if you do read it you´re misinformed.

    Please question everything and also the information I´m providing.

    #555 6 years ago
    Quoted from Astropin:

    Well Roman that's all fine and dandy. Your glass might be the best on the market.....heck even if it was the ONLY anti reflective glass on the market....it's still not worth $300 (to many of us). I would start buying at half that....and I think many, many others would as well (far, far more than are willing to drop $300). I don't know what your profit margins are or how much more you would need to sell at $150 to make the same profit but I have a feeling you might be surprised at how much volume you could get at that price point.

    I understand that the pricepoint in the US is a very sensitive topic, but I´m not setting the prices for the US and
    I´m not telling those who sell it at which price level they have to sell.
    Maybe this will change with more competition.

    Have you asked yourself why those who produce the glass in the US sell their glass at the same or nearly the same price level ?
    They don`t have to import the glass. No customs, no additional fees and no currency exchange charges apply here.
    So why is it so expensive ?
    Please ask those who sell it.

    I have the impression since more and more anti reflective glass sellers show up that a reasonable price/quality ratio needs to be found
    and we are in the middle of this process.
    I`d be really happy if those main questions from this thread could be answered on how Stern´s new glass performs in comparison to the
    existing and to help those who´d like to know to make a decision.

    #582 6 years ago
    Quoted from hawkmoon:

    OK,I put the new Stern glass on my TAFG! it sits between my ST/PRE,and my B66LE,witch both have P.D.I.glass on them!No one yet has been able to tell the difference! SO,thats about it,fans! anymore comparisons are your eyes only!!!

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/invisiglass-vs-pdi-glass-comparison#post-221540

    Quoted from Astropin:

    Maybe you should?

    Maybe, but it´s not working that way.
    The buyer regulates if a product is purchased or not. The reseller does the same with the supplier.
    The question is: Who should start to pass on their margin while the customer is waiting with a knife
    to cut the margin at some point ?
    If you want a product then buy it, if not then leave it. The market will regulate itself and this takes time.
    Today we don´t have time, don´t want to wait and we behave like little children if we don´t get it.
    This is an intrapersonal conflict or simply a dilemma.

    #585 6 years ago
    Quoted from Astropin:

    True enough. I'm not a buyer right now and I can wait for the inevitable. I just thought it might be a "win,win" for you and your customers if you took an active role in it.

    Who´s the winner and who feels like a loser ?

    I just made a short overview with available data on pricing (not quality).
    No sales tax, no packing and shipping charges or any other charges included.

    AR Glass (resized).JPGAR Glass (resized).JPG

    #596 6 years ago
    Quoted from DCFAN:

    This is why the PRICE WARS hopefully will start soon. The lowest price seller will likely win the bulk of sales when all other things are generally equal. Hopefully JJP will lower their price to at least match Stern's and then PDI/Roman will likely be out of the glass business in the USA until they lower theirs as well.

    If I take my crystal ball out of my trunk and I take a brief look then I can see that

    - JJP will lower their price soon
    - Stern will adapt if needed
    - PDI ... it´s getting blurred... I can´t tell
    - others might follow

    As soon as every pinball manufacturer starts to sell anti reflective glass then it´s GAME OVER for after market sales

    #599 6 years ago
    Quoted from T7:

    Not if the Pinball Mfrs price is $200+, but the aftermarket product is $150

    I might add that if the manufacturer sell their glass with their games, people wont change it anymore.

    #649 6 years ago

    Please don´t speculate...it confuses more than it helps.
    I´m here... not always, but I´m trying to improve my language skills as well by answering reasonable questions.
    So feel free to ask. Especially technical questions are very welcome and fundamental to understand what it´s all about.
    From the beginning in 2008 I went with Joey from Pinball Decals Inc. = PDI to distribute my idea/glass.
    The evolution in pinball is progressing very fast, so we have to change as well.
    I´m tired to explain why Jack or Gary didn´t wanted to go with me/my product, but in the end the answer is the same.
    Making more money. Nobody likes to say that but that`s it ... Making more moneeeeeeeey. Buy low, sell high. Simple.
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/invisiglass-vs-pdi-glass-comparison/page/4#post-1268024
    You just need to sell an idea or thought wrapped in a nice story. The quality doesn`t matter...who cares or gives a sh.. (like Neo used to say .
    I feel the need to change something and I know that the copycats are waiting...

    #677 6 years ago
    Quoted from cheshirefilms:

    By underfinished, there is a haze to my sheet in the center. Though Im using the proper cleaning solution and got the glue off, this haze remains.

    Could you breathe on the glass and take a picture then ? You have to hurry up before the visible steam disappears.
    This haze might be some residue from the transportation rolls on the tempering line, but this is just a first thought...

    #678 6 years ago
    Quoted from MK6PIN:

    I truly don't think you have to "change" anything. Your glass has proven to be the best so far (suspect it remains as such)...just a strategic sale every now and then would get your product in more people's machine's, and create more excitement for the next time a "sale" popped up.
    Find a fiscal and time window that works, make it worthwhile for people to give it a go (like a deep discount just for orders placed through one weekend or something). I think you would be surprised that you could then "hold to your guns" the remaining periods, and people would be saving for the special events.
    Competition is healthy....you just have to get your stuff in front of more people on occasion. If you were to ever offer "buy one, get the other half off" for a weekend you would have backorders instantly. If you don't do it, someone certainly will.... (sorry..i'm part sales guy, now exec, and really enjoy your product).

    Thank you for your well intentioned advice.
    My thoughts are not addressing the glass qualitywise. I´m playing with alternative ideas in regard of availability.

    #694 6 years ago

    Those comparison pics (regular vs. Stern HD) from andre060 are nicely made and accurate (viewing angle, light conditions, camera position). Of course the difference to regular sheets is amazing and thrilling, but it would be interesting to see a comparison between
    the three players in this market being (Invisiglass, PDI/Roman and Stern in alphabetical order).
    I´d like to give you just an idea on how I would compare glass if I were a newbie in glass, interested & curious and I would need some advice where to look at to understand how good an anti reflective glass performs.
    Please take a look at those arrows and markings I´ve added to the pic.
    Just from seeing I would like to say that this (intensity of reflection) would not happen with my product and I`d love to see what bigd1979 might say when he compares the new Stern HD Glass with his other two anti reflective sheets.
    Until we haven´t compared the glass here my thoughts are nothing more than my 50 Cents I´m contributing to this conversation.

    Space Shuttle (resized).jpgSpace Shuttle (resized).jpg

    1 month later
    #725 6 years ago
    Quoted from Toasterdog:

    Just got my Stern HD glass installed. Super happy - Looks indistinguishable from PDI or Invisiglass IMO.

    Hi Toasterdog,

    as you have 3 different sheets of anti reflective glass would you mind to make another video
    with only the glass sitting side by side like I`ve asked Pinsiders two months ago please ?

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-pinball-anti-glare-glass/page/4#post-3650003

    You´d be surprised what you´d see...
    and I´d highly appreciate it if you´d share your experience...

    1 year later
    #832 4 years ago
    Quoted from j_m_:

    it's too late for this year, but there is the possibility that I might be able to offer roman's glass (known under the 'PDI glass' name here in the states) at next year's VFW show
    the issue is that I would need to bring in a gaylord of the glass (150 sheets) and would prefer to have 80-90% of it spoken for by people so that I'm not sitting on a ton of glass (no pun intended. the glass would be packaged in a quad walled cardboard box and wrapped in kraft silk paper to prevent it from being scratched
    this would be a one time offer and pricing will not be posted

    I wouldn´t like to raise your expectation that´s why I´m chiming in...
    The last time we spoke about your project for one of the VFW shows was 2 years ago...
    In the meantime Joey from PDI and Dan established a solid partnership with their common goal providing the glass on shows.
    There is no room today for me to risk good business relations therefor I´d like to motivate you
    to get in touch with Joey or Dan to discuss possible options for you to source my glass.
    I´m glad if I can answer your product related questions. For sales please contact Joey or Dan.

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