I have a sheet of Stern's new glass on order. I'll report back once it arrives.
I have 4 pdi and 3 invisaglass and man its nice. I love when people come over to play and think theres no glass in my machines at first glance. After playing them everyone wants it as it makes such a big difference especially during a sunny day. I love it at night also bc everything is much more vibrant and led lightshows are really enhanced .
Quoted from rai:I'd like to know if Stern glass is the same as PDI glass?
I dont believe it is.....
I wish I had known about PDI before I put Invisiglass on most of my machines, though Invisiglass is still a significant improvement over regular glass.
But anything new will get PDI unless the Stern glass is comparable.
Quoted from jfh:I wish I had known about PDI before I put Invisiglass on most of my machines, though Invisiglass is still a significant improvement over regular glass.
But anything new will get PDI unless the Stern glass is comparable.
Guess it depends on lots of factors but i ask anyone that comes by if they can spot a difference between the 2 brands in my house and so far no one has. Again i believe there is a difference but in my house it is not noticeable . I am very happy with both especially over standard glass ...plus i got all mine basically free when i bought out a collection so that helps alot lol.
Quoted from gweempose:It will be interesting to see how JJP reacts to this. Hopefully it will start a price war. There is obviously a crazy amount of markup on this stuff. I'd love to see Jack drop the price of his to $200 just to say "FU" to Stern.
Quoted from TigerLaw:Some competition in this area was needed. Hopefully the customers benifit.
JJP might raise his price and then Stern can follow suit. Then they can go back and forth to see how high they can go before it hurts sales. Worked for pinball machines.
Quoted from BoJo:JJP might raise his price and then Stern can follow suit. Then they can go back and forth to see how high they can go before it hurts sales. Worked for pinball machines.
You shouldn't be giving them ideas...lol
Quoted from Orko:You shouldn't be giving them ideas...lol
He's not, that's exactly what happened
Quoted from bigd1979:Guess it depends on lots of factors but i ask anyone that comes by if they can spot a difference between the 2 brands in my house and so far no one has. Again i believe there is a difference but in my house it is not noticeable . I am very happy with both especially over standard glass ...plus i got all mine basically free when i bought out a collection so that helps alot lol.
I can see your point, but the only opinion that matters in my house is mine.
Quoted from vid1900:Don't forget that coatings for telescope optics have a 10-12% rejection rate, so why would we assume that every pinball glass comes out of the deposition chamber perfect?
We need to know at what angle the light is being reflected (Angle of Incidence) and what wavelengths of light are being reflected.
There are coatings especially made for high angle anti-reflection.
You, my friend, have hit the nail on the head. Does anyone buy eyeglasses? Pretty easy to differentiate the difference in coatings/ treatments there. I swear once I got a great pair of glasses, w premium lenses, glare was gone, and the whole world was more vibrant with pretty dramatic color enhancements.
Switch to PDI....this stuff has an optical grade coating on it. The overall effect is very dramatic ( to me). I have a single sheet of invisiglass on my WOZ, and 2 plain sheets at the moment ( BM66LE and WCS, which Had PDI, but dropped and broke it..joy). Easy to see the difference.
Quoted from bigd1979:Guess it depends on lots of factors but i ask anyone that comes by if they can spot a difference between the 2 brands in my house and so far no one has. Again i believe there is a difference but in my house it is not noticeable . I am very happy with both especially over standard glass ...plus i got all mine basically free when i bought out a collection so that helps alot lol.
how are people going to spot the difference between both brands, when people can't even spot the difference between anti glare glass and normal glass here?
The only real direct question that should be asked of any manufacturer regarding playfield glass of this nature after final testing:
"Does this (brand) playfield glass provide a consumer with 10X (1000%) the optical clarity comparative to the suggested MSRP over a standard piece of production tempered glass?"
It is not like they should not know the answer to this question, if they properly produced a product.
This is very close to the markups over over standard glass, give or take a few dollars on commercial glass production.
Sunglasses/eyeglasses are not playfield glass, unless owners have really big eyes.
I would be even willing to drop the optical clarity to 8X for a margin of error during the coating process and consider the premium status as a product.
This is a simple answer, without a lot of technical data background, yes or no.
From my experience, no, even considering the premium, but perhaps things have changed in the past few years.
That is why at this point a bit more research is required.
Otherwise, this is just another example the changes in the hobby of how people want to look at their games, rather than play them.
"My playfield glass is better than your playfield glass."
Yep, that's great.
Not logical.
Games play just fine without special glass, and in some cases is imperceptible base on the type of game (age of design), angle of the playfield, game lighting, and room lighting. Late model DMDs and modern games benefit the most from this type of glass out of glare issues from the display, flashers, and LEDs.
But, a bottle of Clear Eyes is cheaper.
"Wow."
Quoted from CaptainNeo:how are people going to spot the difference between both brands, when people can't even spot the difference between anti glare glass and normal glass here?
I just wonder if you got a piece of glass that is not fully coated.
When you are at an expo, it is easy to see the games in the rows with AR glass installed.
Quoted from CaptainNeo:how are people going to spot the difference between both brands, when people can't even spot the difference between anti glare glass and normal glass here?
Something is wrong if you can't tell the difference between regular glass and either Invisiglass or PDI (or you are in a dark room with no lights). You can absolutely tell the difference.
Quoted from jfh:Something is wrong if you can't tell the difference between regular glass and either Invisiglass or PDI (or you are in a dark room with no lights). You can absolutely tell the difference.
Even in complete darkness there is a big difference when looking at the 2 beside one another. It really is crazy to me if someone cant see a difference. I had one game without it and wld switch around which game it was in over a few months. Everyone that came over cld tell which the regular glass was in right away no matter the lighting conditions.
Quoted from vid1900:I just wonder if you got a piece of glass that is not fully coated.
When you are at an expo, it is easy to see the games in the rows with AR glass installed.
It's been well covered in EVERY PDI, Invisiglass, or other thread....Neo simply doesn't like it....I know others that see a difference, but can't justify the money.....all good....I don't know him, and certainly entitled to his opinion....I see it, and it's a Great mod for ME....that's all.
"My playfield glass is better than your playfield glass."
Yep, that's great.
Not logical.
But, a bottle of Clear Eyes is cheaper.
"Wow."
Yea, that's the reason I buy it...to throw away money for bragging rights? Good grief....who am I " bragging to" ? This self righteous shit really gets old....
And YES, eyeglasses make a great analogy....have you ever bought uncoated lenses ( same prescription) vs true optical coated ones to reduce glare and enhance clarity? I have...the clear, untreated lenses look like shit, period, in comparison. BIG difference.
"Logic = clear eyes" ? Now there's some applicable logic there.....shit, I'm pissed now....save the " logic" for actual process.
If you don't LIKE the glass, or can't justify the price...nothing wrong with that ( and why would you be posting here). But to say there is no difference? Get over it...THERE IS!!!...how does stern's measure up? No way to tell yet.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:The only real direct question that should be asked of any manufacturer regarding playfield glass of this nature after final testing:
"Does this (brand) playfield glass provide a consumer with 10X (1000%) the optical clarity comparative to the suggested MSRP over a standard piece of production tempered glass?"
It is not like they should not know the answer to this question, if they properly produced a product.
This is very close to the markups over over standard glass, give or take a few dollars on commercial glass production.
Sunglasses/eyeglasses are not playfield glass, unless owners have really big eyes.
I would be even willing to drop the optical clarity to 8X for a margin of error during the coating process and consider the premium status as a product.
This is a simple answer, without a lot of technical data background, yes or no.
From my experience, no, even considering the premium, but perhaps things have changed in the past few years.
That is why at this point a bit more research is required.
Otherwise, this is just another example the changes in the hobby of how people want to look at their games, rather than play them.
"My playfield glass is better than your playfield glass."
Yep, that's great.
Not logical.
Games play just fine without special glass, and in some cases is imperceptible base on the type of game (age of design), angle of the playfield, game lighting, and room lighting. Late model DMDs and modern games benefit the most from this type of glass out of glare issues from the display, flashers, and LEDs.
But, a bottle of Clear Eyes is cheaper.
"Wow."
TL:DR TBK is Vulcan (extremely "logical") - And has a cataract?
When an owner feels the need to defend playfield glass purchases or any company that makes a product, I don't need to prove any points about why they bought it in the first place.
I mentioned I own non-glare glass and tested on various types of games, probably more than many in terms of era. I did not take the glass to my materials lab. I do like to test new products with value. As stated, the primary benefit was modern games based on identical lighting conditions that many enthusiasts here often refer. There was no significant benefit to EMs and woodrails, and only some benefit for early SS. EMs were tested using the "layover" technique, if they were not to proper size. People may not even consider that this type of glass is not necessarily for optimal usage for other types machines. It is a "mod".
I have always found that quoting another is a form of acceptance of thought, so it made people stop and reflect.
If a member believes my opinion to be illogical and not ask common sense questions regarding quality specifications on mutiple areas of pinball and the large number of market advertising statements, then just block me. The same thing applies if I provide to much detail for others to read. People cannot learn anything from yes or no answers, or "group think".
I am not offended.
I am a realist.
"You can bring a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink."
Quoted from gweempose:You say this every single time the subject is brought up, and you are still dead wrong. Nobody ever claimed that the product eliminates ALL reflections or glare. It does however, greatly reduce them. This is a fact. I've had games that were almost unplayable because of backglass and other reflections, and PDI glass yielded a tremendous improvement.
A real test for the backglass glare reduction would be to put a sheet on TFTC.
Quoted from gweempose:... the next time you are at my place, remind me to do a PDI / Invisiglass demo for you ...
I thought you had the glass removed on your safecracker. Had never seen such clarity, but I'm assuming it was the location in the room with no major reflective lighting in addition to the extreme clarity... as someone else said before me, I almost broke a finger trying to reach out and touch the playfield!!
I just state my points, because a lot of you guys talk it up so much, that other people that do not know better, will have extremely high expectations. And going in at the cost it is, should have the realization on what it does and does not do. For me, I was highly disappointed because it underperformed drastically. Especially with the price associated with it.
Dan is not a stranger to pinball. he is fully knows pinball inside and out. His show is the Midwest Gaming Classic. And if he has trouble telling the difference on a game standing practically right next to him. It's not just me that thinks you guys overblow this shit out of proportions.
Quoted from MustangPaul:A real test for the backglass glare reduction would be to put a sheet on TFTC.
That guy in the TFTC Club thread with full LEDs in the backbox and blinding speaker lights needs a sheet of this. Trying to tell me there's no glare and he can see the ball just fine. lol
Quoted from CaptainNeo:I just state my points, because a lot of you guys talk it up so much, that other people that do not know better, will have extremely high expectations. And going in at the cost it is, should have the realization on what it does and does not do. For me, I was highly disappointed because it underperformed drastically. Especially with the price associated with it.
I probably would also be disappointed in any brand of the glass just because of how much people hype it around here. I doubt I would benefit from any glass because I have a complete control of indoor and outdoor light in my bar. But I do need to make a point to check out a Woz or Hobbit with the JJP glass at Allentown because THAT'S where this glass is needed. Always a large glare of overhead lights on the games in the freeplay area, so much glare that I've used an umbrella to block it while my wife and I play.
Quoted from PoMC:Always a large glare of overhead lights on the games in the freeplay area, so much glare that I've used an umbrella to block it while my wife and I play.
Don't you know it's bad luck to open an umbrella indoors?
Wow, the glare from the ceiling lights is gone thanks to the anti-glare glass! Oh wait, they just moved the camera a bit..
This should be an easy test.
1. Set up a DSLR camera on a tripod & boom at the height and head angle of a human male (6 foot?). Boom will allow the playfield glass to be changed without touching the camera.
2. Set the exposure and lock all the settings in manual mode, so nothing changes (we don't want the camera opening up the aperture or changing the ISO).
3. Zoom out so the entire playfield glass is in the viewfinder.
4. Put a 4 foot fluorescent lamp overhead, so it glares across the entire playfield. Make sure the lamp is a full spectrum bulb (for worse case scenario).
5. Shoot all 3 (four?) brands of glass.
6. Compare photos.
7. For hard science, compare the camera's histograms.
This will give us the % reflectance at the same angle of incidence as a player actually sees the game. We could also move the light source to an off-angle position too, for further consideration.
i wouldn't put a florescent directly above. Nobody should have lighting directly above machine. Have just normal ceiling lighting offset in the middle of the room. that's more realistic to what most people have in their gamerooms. That way you can see if there is really is that much of a difference with standard room lighting.
Quoted from CaptainNeo:i wouldn't put a florescent directly above. Nobody should have lighting directly above machine. Have just normal ceiling lighting offset in the middle of the room. that's more realistic to what most people have in their gamerooms. That way you can see if there is really is that much of a difference with standard room lighting.
yeah, not much point in testing a situation nobody would put themselves in to begin with.
Every time I go to someone's house to fix their game, they have Track or Can lighting directly overhead. But like I said, the lighting could be moved to several different locations for comparison.
I keep my game rooms pretty dark, so I've not been too concerned by much glare, but I'd like to get a sheet for Ghostbusters if it's up to par with other anti-glare glass. I don't see myself putting it on all my games, but a few could really benefit from it more than others.
Even if it's not quite as good as PDI glass, it just needs to be in the same ballpark as Invisiglass for the price they're asking.
No question PDI is an improvement. Im sure there's plenty of science to prove the technology.
It's people's expectations that differs.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:When an owner feels the need to defend playfield glass purchases or any company that makes a product, I don't need to prove any points about why they bought it in the first place.
I'm not defending anything, nor do you have anything to prove. No reason to block you, as some of your stuff is semi interesting, on occasion.
I believe logic and pure "fact vs, fiction" can be quite subjective, however, so maybe an inward look before preaching your "fact" might be better received.
Neo doesn't think the glass lives up to expectations and is overpriced. That's his opinion, and I truly respect that. Others (including me) believe it to be a value added mod to their machine. That too, should be respected.
This thread is about Stern branded antiglare glass, not the concept in general. Maybe we let them show their product, then we can all decide for ourselves......
Quoted from vid1900:This should be an easy test.
1. Set up a DSLR camera on a tripod & boom at the height and head angle of a human male (6 foot?). Boom will allow the playfield glass to be changed without touching the camera.
2. Set the exposure and lock all the settings in manual mode, so nothing changes (we don't want the camera opening up the aperture or changing the ISO).
3. Zoom out so the entire playfield glass is in the viewfinder.
4. Put a 4 foot fluorescent lamp overhead, so it glares across the entire playfield. Make sure the lamp is a full spectrum bulb (for worse case scenario).
5. Shoot all 3 (four?) brands of glass.
6. Compare photos.
7. For hard science, compare the camera's histograms.
This will give us the % reflectance at the same angle of incidence as a player actually sees the game. We could also move the light source to an off-angle position too, for further consideration.
I think your "player angle" carries the most merit in this approach. The optically treated glass really seems to enhance the players perception of clarity and anti glare, in my experience.
Quoted from CaptainNeo:i wouldn't put a florescent directly above. Nobody should have lighting directly above machine.
Quoted from epthegeek:yeah, not much point in testing a situation nobody would put themselves in to begin with.
I wish somebody would tell this to the arcade owners where we had our March Silverball tourney on Saturday. Could barely see the playfield through the glare on at least 3 of the pins in the rotation.
Of course, I also wouldn't expect them to purchase anti-reflective glass since the cost for so many machines would add up quickly. No-win situation!!
Quoted from Pinzap:I wish somebody would tell this to the arcade owners where we had our March Silverball tourney on Saturday. Could barely see the playfield through the glare on at least 3 of the pins in the rotation.
Of course, I also wouldn't expect them to purchase anti-reflective glass since the cost for so many machines would add up quickly. No-win situation!!
Bring an umbrella and someone to hold it next time.
Quoted from TechnicalSteam:Where can you order the Stern Anti-glare glass?
Sternpinball.com
I had an opportunity to play a WOZ with the "invisiglass" and definitely saw a difference in the clarity versus the machines next to it with standard glass. This was in a "traditional" style arcade with overhead lights as well as the lighting from machines beside and in front of it. I would definitely like to see the PDI glass in person, but am looking forward to seeing the research done here with how it compares. I'm still in the process of getting my NIB, so it will be a bit before I pull the trigger.
Quoted from Pinzap:I wish somebody would tell this to the arcade owners where we had our March Silverball tourney on Saturday. Could barely see the playfield through the glare on at least 3 of the pins in the rotation.
Of course, I also wouldn't expect them to purchase anti-reflective glass since the cost for so many machines would add up quickly. No-win situation!!
I'll have to design some kind of anti glare pop up tent thing that you can attach to the head, or something. I'll be a hundred-aire.
Quoted from bigd1979:Even in complete darkness there is a big difference when looking at the 2 beside one another. It really is crazy to me if someone cant see a difference.
In complete darkness you can't see anything but blackness.
too bad this thread is turning into a fight b/w if PDI glass is worth it or not. I would love to hear about whether stern's glass is actually good or not once it's available. To the guys buying it without hearing feedback first, thanks for helping the rest of us.
Quoted from delt31:too bad this thread is turning into a fight b/w if PDI glass is worth it or not. I would love to hear about whether stern's glass is actually good or not once it's available. To the guys buying it without hearing feedback first, thanks for helping the rest of us.
Damn right. Has anyone even seen this stuff yet? Is it good or crap?
Quoted from delt31:too bad this thread is turning into a fight b/w if PDI glass is worth it or not. I would love to hear about whether stern's glass is actually good or not once it's available. To the guys buying it without hearing feedback first, thanks for helping the rest of us.
The easiest way for those who bought Stern´s glass first and who want to/should share their experience with the community first hand
is, to put the glass on a table with another reference sheet and to hover between the two sheets like Namsan did (1:28) or myself.
There is no easier way without using sophisticated tools to show how the glass handles reflection.
Good Luck
Quoted from MagicJumpi:The easiest way for those who bought Stern´s glass first and who want to/should share their experience with the community first hand
is, to put the glass on a table with another reference sheet and to hover between the two sheets like Namsan did (1:28) or myself.
» YouTube video;
» YouTube video
There is no easier way without using sophisticated tools to show how the glass handles reflection.
Good Luck
this doesn't show anything of what actually matters. Need to compare side by side with the games on and show the display and backglass regions. Then you see the difference on how much of the stuff that matters is blocked out.
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