Tonight my son goes into my Pinball room and turns on all the machines and wants to play doubles on something. First he chooses XMEN LE. We play a round and I easily destroy him with the latest FW. I ask him (he is 9 years old btw) what he likes about XMEN and his response is "I like how the characters look." Next he chooses Indiana Jones. Here, he destroys me in a game with a score of 817 million to 315 million. Watching him play I noticed something that Stern just completly lacks.

In your standard Stern game, all the lights are flashing, and there is no clear direction as to what you should be doing. On a Williams game, there are generally obvious mode start shots, and clear direction on how to lock a ball for multiball. The Williams games are so easy that even a 9 year old boy can figure out what he has to do.

My son starts by locking all of the balls and starting a multi-ball scenario. Then he locks an additional ball and hears the words "The Jackpot is Double" and he looks at me and says "See Dad, if you lock another ball the jackpot is worth more!" He then shoots the Jackpot shot that is obvious due to its flasher.

Then he starts a couple of modes, but then jumps back to multi-ball and proceeds to collect two more jackpots. Each time he tries to lock a ball to double the score and celebrates when he makes shots. Something I have never seen him do on a Stern machine. This is when I realized something special about Williams games.

Stern may go ahead and try to make these complex rule sets, that take forever to complete, while adding a ton of jackpot shots in that aren't really worth anything, to make you feel like you have accomplished something. But, too a 9 year old kid, the simplicity of the rules on an Indiana Jones machine, along with the obviousness of where to shoot next, and the perfect voice overs that tell you whats going on, there is just no comparison.

Watching my son play tonight made me realize that Williams knew how to manage pro and beginning players perfectly. Stern seems to be stuck in this "Complex Rules" syndrom where every spot you shoot in a multi-ball is a Jackpot. Well guess what, if every shot I make is a jackpot, who cares?! I will take a placed jackpot shot with an obvious combination that a 9 year old can figure out over "every shot counts" any day of the week.

I have yet to see a Stern game provide the level of opportunity that a near 20 year old machine from Williams can provide. Not only did Williams ship machines that worked out of the box, they also insured that players of all skill levels could have a good time, and made it obvious as to what the next shot should be. This simplicity in design, while offering challenging gameplay to those that are experienced in the trade, is why Williams is the standard in all Pinball comparisons. I really wish Stern would wake up and see that complexity does not equal fun, and that shipping a complete, and working game, is actually worthwhile.

The future of pinball does not exist in the hearts of the old school players, but in the interest of our young and beginning players. Every machine that Stern releases that ignores this group, is only adding another nail into the coffin of the future of pinball. I thank Williams for still continuing to provide accessability along with fun even 20 years later. I only wish that everyone else was enjoying this hobby as much as my 9 year old son does.

I hear what all of you are saying, and I have played all the Stern games. I enjoy some of them quite a bit, but only as a seasoned pinball player. Look at these games from the point of a new player. When I start most new Stern games, every single shot light is flashing. This is confusing. Compare this to say ST:TNG, TZ, IJ, or hell, any Williams game, that has only a couple lights going so that you can focus on whats important.

Just because you open every single shot in the beginning of the game doesnt mean it makes sense, in fact, it does the opposite. Seeing all of this through the eyes of a starting pinball player really puts this in perspective. The next time you play a Stern game, put your bias aside and really think about "What would I do if I have never played a pinball before." I think you will then understand what I am describing.

Agreed, they have ALL the shots lit up and every shot is a jackpot. Thats the problem. Everything is devalued. In IJ for instance, you have a clear path to lock a ball, then once you lock it, you realize you should keep doing this to start multi-ball. Once multiball starts, there is a single jackpot shot that awards you greatly instead of every single shot being a jackpot that awards minimal points.

Agreed, TZ is a real pain to understand, and to be honest, I hated that game for quite awhile. It is definitely not new player friendly.

I go to two Pinball festivals every year (ok last year I missed one) and the Stern games are all but ignored. Relevence to the times is definitely a heavy factor (Tron was quite popular when the movie was released) but over time, if you look at things from a true new player perspective, I believe you will better understand what I am saying. I don't care about the players that are looking for some new pizazz, I am looking for the smart player that wants to understand why hitting mode start does something new.

Stern tried this with the "Shoot here and here" dialogue that started with T3. Instead of thinking about what they should add, think about what they should remove. Its obvious to a 9 year old boy what to do on an IJ but not on an XMEN. That is the real story. We dont need someone tellling us what to do. We need better designed pinball machines with SOFTWARE that matches that design. I still believe XMEN can be great, but the current software is some of the worst I have seen.

Exactly, the longer you own them the better you understand what you have to do. Imagine if that was obvious the first time you hit the "launch" button or pulled back the plunger. My son evaluates this before every game. On the Williams games (FT, CV, AFM etc) this is obvious. He knows what he has to do to start something. That is all I am saying. I am not saying X game plays better then Y game. Simply that B/W games were more approachable.

I can't explain because what you are asking is an emotional thing, not a data driven thing.

B/W Games didnt tell you where to shoot. They too the simple approach and made it obvious by only flashing that one light. Everyone said "Hell, I should shoot that flashing light!" Compare that too XMEN where on ball one every single thing is flashing. What the hell should I do?! I dunno, just whack the flippers till something starts.

I agree with most of your analysis here. XMEN is unusually horrible, and Avengers is a lot more enjoyable. However, think about this in terms of someone who has never played pinball and think about what is the obvious next shot. Doing so will help you see what I am referring too.

I got great support for my 90s games when they [Bally / Williams] were still in business. Timely and free updates to the ball stuck scenarios along with timely software upgrades. Apparently your experience differed.

I dont care about the perspective of an OP, I care about the perspective of a new player. I appreciate your time with being an OP, but the OP side of things vs the new player side of things are different.

I understand what you are saying, however I have had experience in ALL of the Stern games. In fact, I have spent considerable time with Stern and Steve Ritchie over dinner and drinks. I see you pointed out one game that is an exception to the rule. Good for you, that doesn't change the real data I have experienced over the last 25 years. I did not make this post as an anti-stern, simply a post of where I have seen pinball progress now versus the past. To think that just because I dont post whore, doesnt devalue my experience.

I am not asking you to agree with me. Just giving you factual evidence along with years of play time. Maybe your 9 year old launches any Stern game and just knows what to do.

haha I see your troll and raise you a post with data. Agreed, a lit shot has value, but a single lit shot has more value then everything being lit. You have missed the point of the post. Using your logic I could state that hitting any target in a machine is an arguement that its great.

Cool, I guess the mode starts of the Piano and Slot Machine are too confusing for you. You know, the shots that when you make them stop the ball for several seconds while telling you whats next. Where as making a shot in XMEN, ACDC, TRON, SPIDERMAN, while all making progress, do nothing until you have made the shot multiple times. Or how about IJ, where hitting mode start actually starts a mode and gives you goals?

I never said anyone should turn their backs on Stern. I appreciate anyone that continues to make Pinball games because I love pinball. I am simply pointing out that the old WMS games had better new player approachability then the Stern. I am just thankful that I am in a position to own several pins and allow my son and extended family to enjoy them.

I actually had a POTC for awhile. The design was terrible and the gameplay was uninispiring. I really wanted to love that game because the ship was cool. My son still preferred AFM over POTC.

Sure, this may be true. But more importantly, the popularity of the WMS games over the past several years has brought back all of the old school designers. Now you have JJ, Popadiuk, and other NEW MANUFACTURES talking about the old games, not the new games and then providing new material. I thank WMS for this.

When I go to the local Pinball competitions, no one plays Stern, infact they dont even make money (as quoted by JJ). We all play the old 90s games because they were so good. However, this detracts from what I am saying. I dont intend to have a "Stern Sucks" party, I am simply pointing out how new players see the WMS games as intuitive (example my son though I can add many others) and the Stern games get passed by.

Man AC/DC is one of the worst games ever made IMHO. Ill take a Tron (any version) over that anyday. Spiderman is a fantastic game, but does not contain the obvious mode advancement that many of the games in my collection contain.

Understood, that doesnt change my initial statement that new games are made for veteren players. In fact, your statement just supports that. I am simply stating that new games address the old players, and ignore the new players that need that old WMS games simplicity.

You dont want to know. It will make you mad.

Good thing there is an edit button. I never said I dont care about your personal opinion. However, including a statement from your professional work position clouds a realisitic player person. You are a minority even among people that actually OWN machines. However when I run into a problem I cant solve, dont think I wont send you an IM ;p

Dont feel sorry for me. I like AC/DC music as well. But the cheapness in that design is horrific. T2 is a much better game in every way. Not only do you got 95% of AC/DC, but its much more fun!! (these statements are totally objective, but T2 is still better then AC/DC!) ;p

I have no idea what logic you used to come to that conclusion... Maybe you should come to the next Pacific NorthWest Tourney and then we can talk over a game of pinball.

Actually it was an LE. I am definitely in a minority when I say I prefer the look of the machine WITHOUT the mini-playfield. That playfield is unenjoyable and embarassing.

ACDC is a great tourney game. The rule set and software were done by a big tourney player, so this makes sense. However, knowing when you should cash in on that cannon jackpot does not make it an approachable game.

Personally, I think the software is amazing from the standpoint of a tourney player. That doesn't mean that anyone regular Joe can understand what he is supposed to do on his first play.

AC/DC was also the point when I realized that Stern ships games, even to their most valuable customers, before they are done. AC/DC required a few updates to make it even worthwhile to play. When it first came out I just let the cannon make my shots for me because it was so broken.

Sure, thats true for every game.

Of course I would agree with familiarity in terms of performance. No one would disagree with that. I have never received a NIB WMS game that was non-operational out of the box. I have received a Stern that way though. But who cares, Stern sends you replacement parts until it works, so thats a good thing.

Jersey Jack said it best when he decided to start a business making Pinballs instead of buying them. Its hard to disagree with the largest distributer of Stern pins when he says players dont like or understand the games anymore. Hard to believe any other company (of which there are several now) that would want to start up in a non-profitable business. Fortunately, they recognize a user base that is hungry for good games, and I am one hoping they can provide it.

haha sup Monkey, seriously though. You would discredit T2 over AC/DC! You're a player man, what shot in AC/DC gives you that super jackpot pleasure of T2?

And what are the steps to accomplish this?

T2 Super Jackpot
- Lock Balls
- Lock Ball during mball (or lock two for awesome)
- Squeeze trigger for jackpot removing your hand from a flipper (x2)

CFTBL 3x SJ is better then all of this BTW.

Too complex to type, I get it.

As markmon said, I don't hate Stern. In fact, I very much enjoy playing several of the Stern games. Espeically since they are now finally getting some compeition so we see better screening processes on the tables, they re-hired several of the designers they abandoned years ago and they are now trying to make a turn under the threat of new compeition they didn't have previously.

I was at a conference a couple years ago when Gary Stern even stated that Pinball machines were too complex to attract new players. The problem is how to balance pleasing your old players that expect complexity, against appealing to new players with simple rules and lots of rewards which teach you how to play the game. Who am I to disagree with the CEO of Stern.

I can walk up to almost any 80s-90s pinball and within five games have a good idea of what the scoring shots are, how to start a m-ball, and I have an understanding of what the story is in the game. This is not true for most current games.

Thats not to say that a few haven't been that way, like Spiderman comes to mind. My son also loves that game because things are obviously happening when you play it, character voices make sense, and you have natural progression occuring that feels simple, yet it is one of the hardest games for a seasoned vet to complete. Compare Spiderman against the follow up games like Tron, Avatar, Ironman, XMEN, and many others where the games have unusually high left outlane drains, and new players walk away disgusted because they just blew 1$ for 45 seconds of frustration.

Now, as a home user, I dont mind the games being hard, but like John Popadiuk says, if we aren't designing games to bring new players in, then Pinball may as well be dead now. And that is a day I would like to avoid.

Well put. It is a challenge to be between a good earning machine (lots of quarters per hour) vs one that people feel like they got value out of. This is where the OP is pitched against the player. The OP wants short games with a lot of return, while the player wants a long game and the feeling of accomplishing something.

This is why Highspeed was so amazing when it first released. It was so obvious what you had to do, make the light red, and run it. Everything you did accomplished tasks towards completing this goal. Then, when you finally ran that red light and the whole machine started flashing, it was pure bliss. This was a typical Ritchie game too. One that punished you for missing a shot and had many angles that lead to hard instant outlane drains. Yet, Highspeed is credited to be the machine that started a pinball explosion, because it was the first machine to tell a *story*. To hear Steve Ritchie tell this story is really eye opening.

This single game set the stage to bring a generation of new players to the field (including myself). Simple rulesets with obvious gameplay is what draws new people in. They feel like they just accomplished something without any training, and this gets them coming back for more.

Very true, its hard for Pin owners to step back and try to look at a game from the point of view of someone that maybe has never played pinball. This is why I love watching kids play pinball. If they can figure it out, then I believe it is all designed machine for beginning players.

In my personal collection, IJ is a crowd favorite. Everyone figures out quickly to shoot for the mode start shot and the lock shot. Even with no knowledge of pinball, for some reason that game is just easy for new players. The great thing is IJ rewards you with seemingly random multiballs from mode start and easy to start multiball center shot modes. The biggest failing of this machine is the elephant. No body knows whats happening at first and the balls just drain down the center at first, but the ball save fixes that I suppose.

Next is AFM. That game is just so easy to understand and has many different methods of playing the game, so everyone has fun. The games that dont get played much are CFTBL, XMEN and TZ. FT seems to be on and off, while CV is loved but its punishing to new players in terms of ball times, so people quit it pretty quickly.

I agree with everything you say here. TZ was a total turd on route, I remember as well. However, Stern is the only currently shipping pin manufacturer out right now, and the bulk of their previous games have been difficult to understand. Sure, it has nothing to do with the name on the box, but when you are the only one, you dont have to go far to figure out who is making it.

The title I chose for this OP was incorrect, and overly aggressive. The only point I am making, and one that everyone seems to mostly miss, is that we need to see more easy to understand games in the market place. Reason being is if you alienate the entire new gen of pin players, you just lost pinball, and that is something this community of players seems to be missing. Good thing John Popadiuk understands this, but when he is only making craft games, it doesnt help pinball as a whole.

I started this thread and I dont have a quatrillion karma points. In fact, I have been a member of these forums longer then 90% of the people posting, but then again I dont karma farm.

BTW: Goatdan has been the only one that I have read that is actually thinking about this question in the right frame of mind. I cant agree that the elephant is a huge failing for IJ (it has a ball save after all so its a noop imho), but I definitely enjoy reading your thoughts.

I am glad you think I am an idiot. In other news, no one cares.

I dont like AC/DC and I dont care what the "top 100" says. In fact, since you didn't say "top 10" or even "top 20" that lends more credability to what I am saying. That game shipped with some of the worst software I have ever seen. So bad that I could just do nothing and let the cannon shoot the right ramp over and over. Fun. I love Ritchie, but this is the worst game he has ever made IN MY OPINION. Just because I dont like what you like, doesnt make me an idiot, it makes you close minded. And what the hell does this have to do with games being easier to understand?

Rate a game before they put flippers on? Um, yeah, walking away from this one.

You know what Goatdan, its nice to have a great, well thought up, post like this.

I like your example of Whirlwind. This was one of my favorite games in College due to its difficulty to keep the ball alive. I think there is a big difference between then and now though. Back then, playing at an arcade was still very popular. So, when a game first game out and it was difficult (like WW and PinBot) a lot of people just walked away. Then, after a few of the really good players got to the game, and you got to hear the siren shot that requires you to hit the left loop (missing the bumpers), then the upper loop, then ramp all sequentially, that machine made a sound that drew everyones attention. Add in a fan that added environment to the game, and some amazing jackpot shots, and you have a game that will draw people in. I still wouldn't call WW complex by any means, it was quite simple. Shoot the flashing arrow, lock the ball, rinse, repeat. Everyone figured this out pretty quickly. Unfortunately, we dont have good arcades with kids anymore, we have bars and establishments that only the already addicted Pinball player goes too.

Bash toys do make things popular, but look at CV, which had the most obvious bash toy ever, and it did terrible (I picked mine up in 97 for a cool 1600). So it's definitely way more then bash toys. POTC did well by combining bash toys with a theme that everyone recognized and it was very popular, as was LOTR. Once again though, the theme itself led more to the popularity of these games IMHO then the gameplay. Take away those themes and I believe, as does Stern, all these games fail badly.

I am definitely not saying Stern doesnt make easy to approach games, in fact if you look back you will see I called those out. I am simply stating we need more games that meet the needs of growing the popularity of pinball. If any of you have been to any of the PAPA pin tourneys you will notice a severe age gap in the players. This is what I am focusing on, and this is what concerns me about the future.

What sucks is that current pinball sw development has decided that its ok to ship machines incomplete, then fix it later. How about you ship it when its done? With the rapid release schedules everyone is trying to follow these days, its sad that the consumer is paying the price. Look how many updates occur these days compared to the Williams area. How many ROM releases should it take to dial it in?

This is very true, but does that mean that we should just accept incomplete software on every release? No sane person expects perfection in 1.0, and some updates are reasonable. But I really think that the release quality is getting very poor, which is the cause of so much hate on these forums alone that it demands some evaluation.

However, giving credit where it is due, Avengers was much more complete than the release of TF, ACDC and XMEN.

Apology accepted Chambahz ;p

I will admit, software updates have gone a long way towards saving this game (AC/DC). I am going to be spending some time with this machine here soon, and I am actually looking forward to it.

In hindsight, this thread title is horribly inaccurate to the statement I was really trying to make. My main topic of discussion was meant to be on how the rulesets these days focus on the home user and pinball has lost its ease of approachability to new players. I still believe this is true, but I also now know more about sales data, so it makes sense. Stern for instance makes the bulk of all their money from home sales. So it makes sense that the rule sets require reading an FAQ instead of a well designed game that makes it obvious. The home user wants a complex rule system, and while I definitely don't agree that AC/DC is the best game ever made (like pinside owners like to tell me over and over again) it is a great complex rule system, and probably the best software work that Lyman has done in regards to home play. The PF design is totally meh, and uninteresting. We are talking classic Ritchie layout here, which isn't a bad thing per se, it's just not what makes AC/DC fun.

I agree with you tbanthony. I am so happy that JJP came along, and because of this, caused advances in Pinball that would not have occured otherwise. Look at the quality of the Pins that have come along since JJP announced what he was going to do. I love the new lighting, and how the mood of the game changes as you play. XMEN is the best example of this I have seen so far though, and AC/DC, if you recall, shipped without this feature even working.

Yea, I agree with this. JJP did what any smart business would do. You don't spend all your money trying to cause a wave, you just ride one that has already been started. However, Stern didn't cause this wave either. It was the fact that all the Bally / Williams games prices were going crazy, pins were getting purchased up quickly and home ownership rates went through the roof.

This is when JJP bashed Stern for their uninventive games, lack of toys and old and tired layouts. He then announced he was doing his own thing and showed videos of multi-color GI rotations, odd flipper layouts and discussed many other ideas they had. I don't see how JJP wasn't forcing the hand of Stern at this point. He has investors, and deliverables now. Stern has to work to not become obsolete and look stale.

If PF wasn't interesting, you would never put a quarter in to try out a game. The PF is the first thing you see, so it damn well better look interesting and fun, or its not getting played. Sometimes you just need something simple, like a long ramp with multiple valleys (WH20) and sometimes you want it to look complex with ramps everywhere, and lots of path choices (T3). Regardless, its the primary window shoppers decision maker for playing a game.

I am not judging based on one game. In fact, the reality is there are so many games that it is hard to compare apples to apples. Both Stern and WMS have made bad games, so I tend to try and look at things from an overall perceived average. So lets do that with a couple simple compares.

Everyones favorite AC/DC vs AFM only comparing when multiballs start.

AC/DC - When does a multiball start? Well who knows, from a players perspective, I know when the cannon light is flashing, I will either be shooting the cannon at a target, playing the under-pf game, or a multi-ball will start. There is no indication prior to making the shot what will happen.

AFM - When does multiball start? Easy, when you lock three balls as noted on the PF with lights. Additionally, you quickly discover that when you make all shots 3 times, something awesome is probably going to happen, and it does. Intuitive and simple. Shoot shots, fill out lights, game goes crazy.

With WMS games, you can really tell the rules and PF design went hand in hand. They sorta had too because doing PROM updates is a hassale and a pain. With new games, you can throw a PF together and the software can come along whenever. All we need to do is slap a USB stick in, so updates are easier. So often times, you don't see the rules reflected in the layout, and the layout is kept generic intentionally to allow for more software flexibility. Good or bad, its all personal I guess. I like games that are designed to help you discover what you are doing, instead of ones that require I read a technical manual so I understand what is going to be happening while I play.

Yea, because one thing I love to do is stare at the DMD when I am busy trying to play pinball ;p

I disagree with this. WH20 has an obvious component, and a not so obvious, but at least the lights still tell you what to do component. For rafts, you have this flashing yellow shots, gee what happens when I hit the flashing yellow shot? Oh, it goes away, well I see another one so I should hit that too. Oh neat a cool sound played and a raft is now solid, and now there are more flashing lights to complete.

The other not so obvious would be how to start the different modes from the rock garden. Good news, a well lit display is on the u.PF that contains this information. And to think I never had to look at the DMD.

Fair enough, but I am not seeing a counter to anything, just that I am wrong. I have not had people be confused by WH20. They get quickly that hitting lit shots completes rafts. Sure, they don't know why they are completing rafts, just that they are progressing through something, because the progression is obvious.

Like I said earlier, there are a lot of games, and I have not by any means stated that WMS doesn't have confusing games. Of course they do, but on the whole, most of the games make sense. And one thing that is really nice, is the rule cards are at least accurate for these machines. Even TZ, which is admittedly a confusing machine at first, you can figure out what starts modes, and what relight's them just from casual gameplay.

Even JJP gave a presentation on the complexity of todays games and how he felt that there was a loss in the new marketplace due to how unapproachable games were. He even discussed having an easy mode that could be the default play, and advanced for more seasoned players. Even Stern had a go at this with the old "Shoot here and here" training wheels method. Its not like they spent time and money doing this because the games were too easy.

Every AC/DC I have played has this problem. What did you do to solve it? In fact, the bell is the worst part of AC/DC for the whole game design. Who wants to play a game where you launch the ball and one of three things happens. A quick STDM, push into the right slingshot which likes to end in an outlane, or if your lucky, a landing on the right flipper. If instead the ball could never come down the middle, and the entry to the bell was instead a small jump ramp that hit the bell, and then put the ball into the left orbit to the flipper, you would have a great flowing pinball.

I agree, Spiderman is a classic layout with inserts that match the rules. Its, to date, the best modern machine Stern has made. Its literally the full package, 3 flippers, great shots, mode progression and a difficult ending. They really nailed that.

I disagree with this and here is why. The managers care about making money, and when Williams was making games, the primary source of income was the route operators. Now it is the home user. Back when Williams made games, the average consumer walking up to a machine had to be considered, now they are all but ignored. And, as I stated in the main post, this has little to do with the current state of pinball, and more to do with the future. Sure, keep making complex game systems that require reading long tech documents to figure out how to play. Because as another Pinsider stated, when this "Bunch of middle aged men arguing" gets too old to play pinball, the younger crowd will look at it as a bunch of seemingly random flashing lights with no purpose. Keep making games like AFM, SM, MM, and many other great machines that properly integrate rule systems with progression and fun non-cheap gameplay, and then you enable another future of players to come up and demand more games.

And to note, WMS was profitable when they shut the business down. It wasn't for lack of funds, in fact Pinball 2000 was quite successful in the numbers. It was shut down because the margins on slot machines was much better.

Haha, I like easy outs that dont require facts, like your statement. I mean, a great way to win any argument is to just make personal attacks and not use facts. In fact, maybe all disagreements should be solved with boxing gloves, that seems reasonable.

Good news Monkey, AC/DC now tilts when Multiball starts. Ill debug it tomorrow, seems tied to shaker activity, but not sure how that is possible, since the shaker goes off on other things that doesnt trigger a tilt.

Agreed the SDTM drain isn't super frequent, something on yours kicks it hard right and it usually lands in the right outlane area or slingshot. Stating that it happens, doesn't imply it happens all the time.

1.) You told me yourself your thinking of selling fishtales and cftbl to fund Avengers premium.
As the op of this slanderous thread how does that make any sense?!
- I am, whats slanderous about that? I never said people should stop buying Stern games. I dont believe that at all, you are applying your emotional beliefs, and those are irrelevant. Read the main post again, I think you maybe got hit by my gloves one too many times.

5.) Hillsboro is not portland but you can pretend if it makes you feel cooler.
- Who cares? How is this, or any, of your diatribe related to the topic?

1.) you started this thread in angst of xmen code 1.23 which was garbage.
Good for you I hope it made you feel better.
- Incorrect, did you read the original post? Its a TLDR style post though, so I would assume you read some inner post that was OT and came to an incorrect conclusion. If I hated XMEN, I would have sold it. That game has a hell of a lot more potential than anything right now, and I am willing to see what happens. And my feelings dont have any relevancy, this is supposed to be a discussion.

If you want to attack me, and not the topic, thats fine, just call my number and stop wasting all these valuable electrons.

haha That will never happen Jim ;p We just like picking on each other. PDX is the Airport code, and it sounds good. Some people refer to Portland as P-Town, but I know better than that. Monkey doesnt even live in Portland proper, he is in a suburb, just as I am. But the burbs is where all the pinball action is!

Pdxmonkey is going to be sleeping with the fishes tonight.