(Topic ID: 35605)

Stern Pinball, and Why Williams Still Outperforms Them


By PDXGeek

6 years ago



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  • Latest reply 6 years ago by PDXGeek
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    #251 6 years ago

    my new acdc premium disproves this 100%. Best game in my house now.

    #252 6 years ago

    I disapprove 100%,My SM is far and above more reliable,more technologically advanced and more fun than any Williams pinball that I have owned or played!

    #253 6 years ago

    aarrgh... i also hated when they invented the wizard mode, the dmd, the ramps, the lights, etc, even the flippers. they should stopped inventing at the em era.... damn you stern!!

    #254 6 years ago
    Quoted from maddog14:

    my new acdc premium disproves this 100%. Best game in my house now.

    Quoted from scooter:

    I disapprove 100%,My SM is far and above more reliable,more technologically advanced and more fun than any Williams pinball that I have owned or played!

    kudos all accounts, Stern is indeed making some great machines that easily rival the williams/bally titles, especially in the fun factor...Sorry Bally/williams fanboys!!!

    #255 6 years ago

    OP: If you judge Stern based on X-Men, I'll judge WMS based on Hurricane. Both suck. My 28-pin collection has one Gottlieb, two Capcoms, one JJP (soon, I hope) 12 Sterns and 12 WPC-era B/W games.

    #256 6 years ago
    Quoted from pinlawyer:

    OP: If you judge Stern based on X-Men, I'll judge WMS based on Hurricane. Both suck. My 28-pin collection has one Gottlieb, two Capcoms, one JJP (soon, I hope) 12 Sterns and 12 WPC-era B/W games.

    nice balance of machines in your collection!

    #257 6 years ago
    Quoted from RawleyD:

    You don't actually believe this Rob?

    Sure I do.

    I look at the pins that I've owned to know that a unique PF design isn't what makes a pin fun. Let's see, AFM, MB, MM, LOTR, AC/DC, are some of the best, most fun pins EVER, but also have the most basic layout ever. It's based on the fan layout. People love to criticize the "fan layout" but it's a proven design that works.

    X-Men has a unique PF layout. I think that pin blows. But by contrast, Tron has a similar layout to X-Men, and I think Tron is great!

    So, yeah, I do believe that PF design really isn't what makes a pin fun to play more often than not. It can make a difference in things like "satisfying shots", and whether a pin is smooth vs. clunky, etc. though, and those are important.

    #258 6 years ago
    Quoted from dgpinball:

    No matter what they do with the code on AC/DC, the layout is still a slightly altered T2 from over 20 years before. Must be the reason when I play it that it seems so familiar

    Other than having a cannon - the layout, feel, and gameplay is nothing like T2. Not sure why this keeps coming up. On top of that, the rules are absolutely like NOTHING that has come before.

    #259 6 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Other than having a cannon - the layout, feel, and gameplay is nothing like T2. Not sure why this keeps coming up. On top of that, the rules are absolutely like NOTHING that has come before.

    A lot of people look at two layouts and conclude that games are either similar or different based on what they see. Thing is, SM and AFM look very similar, but I have them sitting right next to each other in my collection and they really couldn't be any different in feel once you start playing.

    #260 6 years ago

    If PF wasn't interesting, you would never put a quarter in to try out a game. The PF is the first thing you see, so it damn well better look interesting and fun, or its not getting played. Sometimes you just need something simple, like a long ramp with multiple valleys (WH20) and sometimes you want it to look complex with ramps everywhere, and lots of path choices (T3). Regardless, its the primary window shoppers decision maker for playing a game.

    #261 6 years ago
    Quoted from pinlawyer:

    OP: If you judge Stern based on X-Men, I'll judge WMS based on Hurricane. Both suck. My 28-pin collection has one Gottlieb, two Capcoms, one JJP (soon, I hope) 12 Sterns and 12 WPC-era B/W games.

    I am not judging based on one game. In fact, the reality is there are so many games that it is hard to compare apples to apples. Both Stern and WMS have made bad games, so I tend to try and look at things from an overall perceived average. So lets do that with a couple simple compares.

    Everyones favorite AC/DC vs AFM only comparing when multiballs start.

    AC/DC - When does a multiball start? Well who knows, from a players perspective, I know when the cannon light is flashing, I will either be shooting the cannon at a target, playing the under-pf game, or a multi-ball will start. There is no indication prior to making the shot what will happen.

    AFM - When does multiball start? Easy, when you lock three balls as noted on the PF with lights. Additionally, you quickly discover that when you make all shots 3 times, something awesome is probably going to happen, and it does. Intuitive and simple. Shoot shots, fill out lights, game goes crazy.

    With WMS games, you can really tell the rules and PF design went hand in hand. They sorta had too because doing PROM updates is a hassale and a pain. With new games, you can throw a PF together and the software can come along whenever. All we need to do is slap a USB stick in, so updates are easier. So often times, you don't see the rules reflected in the layout, and the layout is kept generic intentionally to allow for more software flexibility. Good or bad, its all personal I guess. I like games that are designed to help you discover what you are doing, instead of ones that require I read a technical manual so I understand what is going to be happening while I play.

    #262 6 years ago

    My most bulletproof pins are Gottlieb.

    #263 6 years ago

    Uh...have you seen how many ROM versions are out there for most games? They got updated and changed all the time. Everybody has always done that in pinball.

    As for the AFM vs. AC/DC comparison, I don't think it holds up. I have an AFM, but I usually have to explain how the lock/multiball system works to people unfamiliar with the game. On top of that, you can't tell me that most people know how the rules work for deciding when video mode is available via the Stroke of Luck vs starting an attack wave or lighting Martian Attack. There are rules that dictate those things, but they're not evident at all.

    Or with WH2O, another game I own, the rules are very hidden to the average player. Most people don't have any idea how the game works. Yes, the playfield is attractive, but it takes a lot of play or an outright explanation to understand how to progress through the game.

    I don't think Stern does anything much worse or much better than WMS did in regards to making the games easy to understand or making them look attractive at first glance.

    #264 6 years ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    Sure I do.
    I look at the pins that I've owned to know that a unique PF design isn't what makes a pin fun. Let's see, AFM, MB, MM, LOTR, AC/DC, are some of the best, most fun pins EVER, but also have the most basic layout ever. It's based on the fan layout. People love to criticize the "fan layout" but it's a proven design that works.
    X-Men has a unique PF layout. I think that pin blows. But by contrast, Tron has a similar layout to X-Men, and I think Tron is great!
    So, yeah, I do believe that PF design really isn't what makes a pin fun to play more often than not. It can make a difference in things like "satisfying shots", and whether a pin is smooth vs. clunky, etc. though, and those are important.

    gotcha.
    But if you want to expand your mind a *little* bit, when they were designing games in the golden age (60's 70's -solid state), There wasn't much else to improve on BUT playfield design am I right?

    Quoted from RobT:

    Play any pin with what you consider an "interesing PF design" with the volume turned off and see how fun it is.

    Turn the sound off on ALL the pins you have, then play. The game with the most replay value in that regard might be the ones with more interesting designs. Just sayin. I personally love all designs, it doesn't matter to me, just bustin' your chops.

    #265 6 years ago
    Quoted from RawleyD:

    gotcha.
    But if you want to expand your mind a *little* bit, when they were designing games in the golden age (60's 70's -solid state), There wasn't much else to improve on BUT playfield design am I right?

    Turn the sound off on ALL the pins you have, then play. The game with the most replay value in that regard might be the ones with more interesting designs. Just sayin. I personally love all designs, it doesn't matter to me, just bustin' your chops.

    Just bustin' my chops?

    Hardly. You make a very valid and articulate counterpoint regarding playing with the sound turned off in terms of the more interesting PF design being more fun. I'd counter by saying that theme, sounds, etc. have a bigger impact on how fun the pin is, but you certainly make a valid point.

    #266 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    Everyones favorite AC/DC vs AFM only comparing when multiballs start.
    AC/DC - When does a multiball start? Well who knows, from a players perspective, I know when the cannon light is flashing, I will either be shooting the cannon at a target, playing the under-pf game, or a multi-ball will start. There is no indication prior to making the shot what will happen.
    AFM - When does multiball start? Easy, when you lock three balls as noted on the PF with lights. Additionally, you quickly discover that when you make all shots 3 times, something awesome is probably going to happen, and it does. Intuitive and simple. Shoot shots, fill out lights, game goes crazy.

    The dmd will tell you how many ramps left, drop tagets, loops left,for certain multiballs
    Then the big jam album or tour multiball starts flashing near the flippers the right ramp is ready for multiball.
    Not too hard.

    #267 6 years ago

    Yea, because one thing I love to do is stare at the DMD when I am busy trying to play pinball ;p

    Quoted from jar155:

    Or with WH2O, another game I own, the rules are very hidden to the average player.

    I disagree with this. WH20 has an obvious component, and a not so obvious, but at least the lights still tell you what to do component. For rafts, you have this flashing yellow shots, gee what happens when I hit the flashing yellow shot? Oh, it goes away, well I see another one so I should hit that too. Oh neat a cool sound played and a raft is now solid, and now there are more flashing lights to complete.

    The other not so obvious would be how to start the different modes from the rock garden. Good news, a well lit display is on the u.PF that contains this information. And to think I never had to look at the DMD.

    #268 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    I disagree with this. WH20 has an obvious component, and a not so obvious, but at least the lights still tell you what to do component. For rafts, you have this flashing yellow shots, gee what happens when I hit the flashing yellow shot? Oh, it goes away, well I see another one so I should hit that too. Oh neat a cool sound played and a raft is now solid, and now there are more flashing lights to complete.
    The other not so obvious would be how to start the different modes from the rock garden. Good news, a well lit display is on the u.PF that contains this information. And to think I never had to look at the DMD.

    But most people have zero clue as to why they're lighting rafts in the first place, what the Vacation Planner means, or how rewards work in the game. All DMD-era games have pretty obvious flashing lights when you need to hit something, that's hardly a WMS exclusive feature. I love WH2O, but almost nobody understands the game until I explain what's going on.

    I get that you want to dig in on this argument, but you're demonstrably wrong.

    #269 6 years ago

    Pat Lawlor has spoken about it too. That games at a point got too complicated for the average person. AC/DC definitely has some confusing rules, but I don't think that's any different from most B/W games in the 90's. I've played TZ about 10,000 times and still don't know all the rules. I can't fathom people are walking up to any of those games and figuring out how they work.

    It's a double-edged sword for the pinball industry. If they make the games real easy to figure out, it bores pinheads. If they make them too complex, casual players won't understand them. At this point where games are going more and more in homes, I can't see them building them for casual players anymore.

    #270 6 years ago

    Multiball for ACDC is clearly shown when it is lit. The Jam, Album, or tour insert is lit, then you shoot for the cannon. Now getting them one can check progress on the info screen, but it takes x amount of ramps for jam, x amount of loops for tour, and x amounts of target banks for album.

    #271 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    AC/DC - When does a multiball start? Well who knows, from a players perspective, I know when the cannon light is flashing,

    also this just means the cannon is ready for song jackpot.

    #272 6 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    I get that you want to dig in on this argument, but you're demonstrably wrong.

    Fair enough, but I am not seeing a counter to anything, just that I am wrong. I have not had people be confused by WH20. They get quickly that hitting lit shots completes rafts. Sure, they don't know why they are completing rafts, just that they are progressing through something, because the progression is obvious.

    Like I said earlier, there are a lot of games, and I have not by any means stated that WMS doesn't have confusing games. Of course they do, but on the whole, most of the games make sense. And one thing that is really nice, is the rule cards are at least accurate for these machines. Even TZ, which is admittedly a confusing machine at first, you can figure out what starts modes, and what relight's them just from casual gameplay.

    Even JJP gave a presentation on the complexity of todays games and how he felt that there was a loss in the new marketplace due to how unapproachable games were. He even discussed having an easy mode that could be the default play, and advanced for more seasoned players. Even Stern had a go at this with the old "Shoot here and here" training wheels method. Its not like they spent time and money doing this because the games were too easy.

    #273 6 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    Uh...have you seen how many ROM versions are out there for most games? They got updated and changed all the time. Everybody has always done that in pinball.
    As for the AFM vs. AC/DC comparison, I don't think it holds up. I have an AFM, but I usually have to explain how the lock/multiball system works to people unfamiliar with the game. On top of that, you can't tell me that most people know how the rules work for deciding when video mode is available via the Stroke of Luck vs starting an attack wave or lighting Martian Attack. There are rules that dictate those things, but they're not evident at all.
    Or with WH2O, another game I own, the rules are very hidden to the average player. Most people don't have any idea how the game works. Yes, the playfield is attractive, but it takes a lot of play or an outright explanation to understand how to progress through the game.
    I don't think Stern does anything much worse or much better than WMS did in regards to making the games easy to understand or making them look attractive at first glance.

    It tells you right on the instruction card how to start each Multiball on ACDC. If you can't take a minute to read it I don't know what else to say.

    #274 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    Fair enough, but I am not seeing a counter to anything, just that I am wrong. I have not had people be confused by WH20. They get quickly that hitting lit shots completes rafts. Sure, they don't know why they are completing rafts, just that they are progressing through something, because the progression is obvious.

    I didn't find it obvious at all to be honest. It was a few months ago that rarehero pointed out to me that white water even had a completion mode and a way to progress.

    I agree the acdc cannon is confusing. And who wants to look at a Dmd while playing. But I enjoy the complex ruleset in that game.

    Where I disagree is that any of this has anything to do with the company Williams. The president of the company was focused on redemption, slots, and other types of machines. He didnt come down and ask for more obvious lighting on the games. The people making the games, well many of them work for stern now. It's not like Gary stern comes down and demands things to be more confusing. So yea, its not a stern vs Williams thing. The title of this thread is wrong.

    The rulesets are getting more complex. This is a good thing. The complexity is too much for simple insert lights on a playfield. I agree a Dmd isn't a friendly way to communicate progress unless it was front and center in the playfield. Arguably, acdc would be better if the lower pf was replaced with a status Dmd.

    Games like ironman and avatar have obvious indicators on what to do, where to shoot. Same with tron. Avengers does ok but the rules are way more complex than the inserts allow.

    But not everything needs to be intuitive. The stern games are only a fraction of the complexity that the Zen tables provide and you like those. Star Wars tables seem extremely complex. It's great that your son can walk up to Indiana jones and know what to do. But your son understanding the game wouldn't be a goal of me buying a game - the more complex rules would be.

    #275 6 years ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    I'd counter by saying that theme, sounds, etc. have a bigger impact on how fun the pin is,

    And I absolutely agree.
    It was the statement "pf designs almost *never* make a pin fun" that irked me a little.

    #276 6 years ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    X-Men has a unique PF layout. I think that pin blows. But by contrast, Tron has a similar layout to X-Men, and I think Tron is great!
    So, yeah, I do believe that PF design really isn't what makes a pin fun to play more often than not.

    Sort of backs my theory that both SM and ACDC's success is not Ritchie as much as Lyman.

    #277 6 years ago

    To kill a zombie, you have to separate the head from the body. How do we kill a zombie thread?

    #278 6 years ago
    Quoted from Baiter:

    Sort of backs my theory that both SM and ACDC's success is not Ritchie as much as Lyman.

    ITS BOTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    #279 6 years ago
    Quoted from Baiter:

    Sort of backs my theory that both SM and ACDC's success is not Ritchie as much as Lyman.

    Agree with this on acdc. The layout is so basic. The fun factor comes from the rules. Disagree on Spider-Man. The layout with the third ramp and the sandman area and the coolness of the doc ock toy are part if the core design. The rules implemented the design well. But a lot if that is the layout and inserts that show Steve considered the rules as designing.

    #280 6 years ago

    I agree about Lyman. Seems most of the games he touches are incredibly fun and well done.

    Nothing against the AC/DC design, I have one coming Friday. But there isn't anything special about it and some glaring design issues.

    #281 6 years ago
    Quoted from Baiter:

    Sort of backs my theory that both SM and ACDC's success is not Ritchie as much as Lyman.

    Couldnt disagree with this more. Ive said this many times that the genius of the code is the combination of the high risk layout (maybe somewhat simple) that Stevie gave us with ACDC. The bell was a great idea as well as the Jukebox, Both Steve's idea. Lets say you tried to use ACDC's code on a supposed better layout like SM.....The risk/reward factor would be gone & it wouldn't be nearly as big a rush or a stressful when you have a 70-80 mil S.J. built up.

    Lyman should get a ton of credit & rightfully so, but it was the team effort that gave us such a great game.

    #282 6 years ago
    Quoted from sturner:

    Nothing against the AC/DC design, I have one coming Friday. But there isn't anything special about it and some glaring design issues.

    Im curious, what are the glaring design issues you speak of?

    #283 6 years ago
    Quoted from smassa:

    Im curious, what are the glaring design issues you speak of?

    Mind you, these are machines that may not have been adjusted like others have done here. But I play one across the street a lot and the SDTM drains out of the pop bumpers is silly. I've seen people have 2 of the 3 balls drain without ever touching a flipper. Adding to the ball save should fix it a bit, but that just doesn't seem right to me. Balls that drain without touching a flipper should be incredibly rare.

    And I don't know if this would be considered a design issue since I think it's intended, but I think the left outlane is silly. At least offer the option to close it a bit more for those who want longer games.

    Now I have one coming so I obviously really enjoy the game. I just think most of the fun comes from the rules in this particular game which are perhaps the best I've ever come across in a pinball game.

    #284 6 years ago
    Quoted from sturner:

    Mind you, these are machines that may not have been adjusted like others have done here. But I play one across the street a lot and the SDTM drains out of the pop bumpers is silly. I've seen people have 2 of the 3 balls drain without ever touching a flipper. Adding to the ball save should fix it a bit, but that just doesn't seem right to me. Balls that drain without touching a flipper should be incredibly rare.
    And I don't know if this would be considered a design issue since I think it's intended, but I think the left outlane is silly. At least offer the option to close it a bit more for those who want longer games.
    Now I have one coming so I obviously really enjoy the game. I just think most of the fun comes from the rules in this particular game which are perhaps the best I've ever come across in a pinball game.

    Basing a game off location pins to me is never a good idea. Id say the vast majority out there are set up or maintained poorly. There are exceptions to the rule but I never judge a pin based solely off a location example.

    #285 6 years ago
    Quoted from sturner:

    Now I have one coming so I obviously really enjoy the game. I just think most of the fun comes from the rules in this particular game which are perhaps the best I've ever come across in a pinball game.

    While I agree the code is probably some of the best & most creative ever written I also feel the brutal nature of the layout which punishes missed or poorly planned shots is what makes it so enjoyable. If it was easier it wouldnt be as much fun.

    #286 6 years ago
    Quoted from sturner:

    Mind you, these are machines that may not have been adjusted like others have done here. But I play one across the street a lot and the SDTM drains out of the pop bumpers is silly.

    This simply is not, in any way, an issue on my AC/DC. Hopefully it won't be on yours when you get it either.

    #287 6 years ago

    I haven't read this whole post but has anyone pointed out that rules being easier for a player who is playing an Unfamiliar game on location does not make that a better game for everyone.

    Sure It makes it better for a casual player or a game you try on location but over simplistic rules can get boring Fairly easy.

    A lot of the b/w games (not all) were kinds basic. Lock a few balls, start multiball, shoot for jackpots and super jackpots, rinse and repeat. Maybe throw in a few subtle rules and a video mode or 2 and that's it.

    There's nothing wrong with that, a lot of those games are great but I think a lot of advanced players prefer more challenging and more complicated games. Some players don't. It's all in what you like

    I myself like figuring out all the subtle things that make games great. I just got an acdc and At first i didn't understand the rules at all. Now I get the basic concept but the more I learn the more I realize there is still a lot to learn. To me this is what makes a game great. If I had only played it a few games I may have came away thinking that it was too confusing.

    Also using xmen in your argument is a bad example as its not in full code. In general both stern and b/w have easy to understand rules vs hard to understand. In general I think stern has a higher percentage of more complicated games only because there is more of a focus on home use than arcade/location use. I doubt any w/b games were designed with the home user in mind. Also designers are realizing it is better to design games for hard core pin guys than trying to market games toward casual and new players. I think so e of the themes may be targeting new players but not rule sets. Also Lyman is doing code for about half the games that come out. His code tends to be a little more complex then that other guy ( yes I just had to look up his name as it slipt my memory )

    -1
    #288 6 years ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    This simply is not, in any way, an issue on my AC/DC. Hopefully it won't be on yours when you get it either.

    Every AC/DC I have played has this problem. What did you do to solve it? In fact, the bell is the worst part of AC/DC for the whole game design. Who wants to play a game where you launch the ball and one of three things happens. A quick STDM, push into the right slingshot which likes to end in an outlane, or if your lucky, a landing on the right flipper. If instead the ball could never come down the middle, and the entry to the bell was instead a small jump ramp that hit the bell, and then put the ball into the left orbit to the flipper, you would have a great flowing pinball.

    #289 6 years ago
    Quoted from markmon:

    Agree with this on acdc. The layout is so basic. The fun factor comes from the rules. Disagree on Spider-Man. The layout with the third ramp and the sandman area and the coolness of the doc ock toy are part if the core design. The rules implemented the design well. But a lot if that is the layout and inserts that show Steve considered the rules as designing.

    I agree, Spiderman is a classic layout with inserts that match the rules. Its, to date, the best modern machine Stern has made. Its literally the full package, 3 flippers, great shots, mode progression and a difficult ending. They really nailed that.

    Quoted from markmon:

    Where I disagree is that any of this has anything to do with the company Williams. The president of the company was focused on redemption, slots, and other types of machines. He didnt come down and ask for more obvious lighting on the games. The people making the games, well many of them work for stern now. It's not like Gary stern comes down and demands things to be more confusing. So yea, its not a stern vs Williams thing. The title of this thread is wrong.

    I disagree with this and here is why. The managers care about making money, and when Williams was making games, the primary source of income was the route operators. Now it is the home user. Back when Williams made games, the average consumer walking up to a machine had to be considered, now they are all but ignored. And, as I stated in the main post, this has little to do with the current state of pinball, and more to do with the future. Sure, keep making complex game systems that require reading long tech documents to figure out how to play. Because as another Pinsider stated, when this "Bunch of middle aged men arguing" gets too old to play pinball, the younger crowd will look at it as a bunch of seemingly random flashing lights with no purpose. Keep making games like AFM, SM, MM, and many other great machines that properly integrate rule systems with progression and fun non-cheap gameplay, and then you enable another future of players to come up and demand more games.

    And to note, WMS was profitable when they shut the business down. It wasn't for lack of funds, in fact Pinball 2000 was quite successful in the numbers. It was shut down because the margins on slot machines was much better.

    #290 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    AC/DC - When does a multiball start? Well who knows, from a players perspective, I know when the cannon light is flashing, I will either be shooting the cannon at a target, playing the under-pf game, or a multi-ball will start. There is no indication prior to making the shot what will happen.

    That was a really bad example. Ruins your argument. It's so easy to know which multiball will start... just look at the flashing lights on the lower playfield. ACDC rules are not crystal clear, but that one was easy!

    #291 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    Every AC/DC I have played has this problem. What did you do to solve it? In fact, the bell is the worst part of AC/DC for the whole game design. Who wants to play a game where you launch the ball and one of three things happens. A quick STDM, push into the right slingshot which likes to end in an outlane, or if your lucky, a landing on the right flipper. If instead the ball could never come down the middle, and the entry to the bell was instead a small jump ramp that hit the bell, and then put the ball into the left orbit to the flipper, you would have a great flowing pinball.

    Just cause you suck doesn't mean it's a bad game...

    #292 6 years ago
    Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

    Just cause you suck doesn't mean it's a bad game...

    Haha, I like easy outs that dont require facts, like your statement. I mean, a great way to win any argument is to just make personal attacks and not use facts. In fact, maybe all disagreements should be solved with boxing gloves, that seems reasonable.

    Good news Monkey, AC/DC now tilts when Multiball starts. Ill debug it tomorrow, seems tied to shaker activity, but not sure how that is possible, since the shaker goes off on other things that doesnt trigger a tilt.

    #293 6 years ago

    All the best Stern pins made (so far) come from ex B/W employee's

    #294 6 years ago
    Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

    All the best Stern pins made (so far) come from ex B/W employee's

    True, Except John Borg. As a designer.

    #295 6 years ago
    Quoted from RobKnapp:

    True, Except John Borg. As a designer.

    Yeah, and Gary Stern. As an employer

    #296 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    Haha, I like easy outs that dont require facts, like your statement. I mean, a great way to win any argument is to just make personal attacks and not use facts. In fact, maybe all disagreements should be solved with boxing gloves, that seems reasonable.
    Good news Monkey, AC/DC now tilts when Multiball starts. Ill debug it tomorrow, seems tied to shaker activity, but not sure how that is possible, since the shaker goes off on other things that doesnt trigger a tilt.

    I gave you facts you just chose to ignore them.....If the game is set up correctly SDTM from pops isnt an issue....and there is always the super skill shot which you obviously dont know about or didnt acknowledge.

    #297 6 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Other than having a cannon - the layout, feel, and gameplay is nothing like T2. Not sure why this keeps coming up. On top of that, the rules are absolutely like NOTHING that has come before.

    The layout is nothing like T2, seriously?? Keeps coming up because it is 100% true.

    The more I play the game the less I like it, spent a good hour on a very nice premium the other night, trying to figure out what people see in it, still a huge mystery to me. (and I like AC/DC's music!!)

    #298 6 years ago
    Quoted from dgpinball:

    The layout is nothing like T2, seriously?? Keeps coming up because it is 100% true.
    The more I play the game the less I like it, spent a good hour on a very nice premium the other night, trying to figure out what people see in it, still a huge mystery to me. (and I like AC/DC's music!!)

    Your from Canada nobody asked you.......

    #299 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    Every AC/DC I have played has this problem. What did you do to solve it?

    I didn't "solve it" because there was nothing to solve!

    Did you read what I wrote?

    #300 6 years ago
    Quoted from pinlawyer:

    OP: If you judge Stern based on X-Men, I'll judge WMS based on Hurricane. Both suck

    Disagree big time. The initial software and problems with it soured a lot of people, but the game is great. Holds up well to B/W games and I got a lot of B/W games that people consider "A" games. I can pretty much own any game I want and I'm not letting X-men go anytime soon.

    I have a kid in my classroom that hates pizza, and in another classroom one that hates chocolate. A reminder to me that everybody has different tastes.

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