(Topic ID: 35605)

Stern Pinball, and Why Williams Still Outperforms Them


By PDXGeek

6 years ago



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    #151 6 years ago

    Since lloyd is an OP and his experience doesn't count, so to speak, how about a pinball player who worked in a bowling alley for 8 years? We got almost all the NIB B/W (and Gott.) games back then, and I was usually around when they were being unboxed. The OP was always nice enough to let me play doubles with him when he was testing the games. Here is some of the brand new out of the box issues I remember:

    TAF: bookshelf would not open fully, flakey rollover switch for for right inlane.

    TZ: Didn't work out of the box. Not sure what the problem was (as I only played back then, could not afford to own a game), but I do remember board work.

    IJ: POA would not tilt to the right

    STTNG: After a lock, always popped 2 balls onto PF.

    DW: Popper was mis-aligned, and game had great difficulty shooting ball into habitrail.

    MM: Right troll quit registering hits after the 2nd game, the habitrail for the left ramp was not mounted properly, and balls would fall off at the joint where it attached to the plastic part of the ramp constantly.

    JM: Hand Magnet started having issues the 2nd day.

    RS: Red's mouth motor (or jaw gear) broke within the first week.

    FWIW, the Gott. games had very few problems it seemed. I remember that rescue 911 had the stupid helicopter that hardly ever worked, and the rotating flipper in SF 2 would get stuck constantly. Beyond that, I don't remember too many issues.

    So yes, from what I remembered, B/W games had their fair share of issues as well. Those games got the CRAP played out of them. The bowling alley made boatloads of cash from the games they had. I remember the owner saying that the profit from the games for the month paid most of the electrical bill for the alley (No clue if that was true or not)

    #152 6 years ago

    i still think jimi hendrix' girlfriend killed him. wait a minute, what are we talking about again???

    #153 6 years ago
    Quoted from davewtf:

    what are we talking about again???

    Kurt Cobain.

    LTG : )

    #154 6 years ago

    As markmon said, I don't hate Stern. In fact, I very much enjoy playing several of the Stern games. Espeically since they are now finally getting some compeition so we see better screening processes on the tables, they re-hired several of the designers they abandoned years ago and they are now trying to make a turn under the threat of new compeition they didn't have previously.

    I was at a conference a couple years ago when Gary Stern even stated that Pinball machines were too complex to attract new players. The problem is how to balance pleasing your old players that expect complexity, against appealing to new players with simple rules and lots of rewards which teach you how to play the game. Who am I to disagree with the CEO of Stern.

    I can walk up to almost any 80s-90s pinball and within five games have a good idea of what the scoring shots are, how to start a m-ball, and I have an understanding of what the story is in the game. This is not true for most current games.

    Thats not to say that a few haven't been that way, like Spiderman comes to mind. My son also loves that game because things are obviously happening when you play it, character voices make sense, and you have natural progression occuring that feels simple, yet it is one of the hardest games for a seasoned vet to complete. Compare Spiderman against the follow up games like Tron, Avatar, Ironman, XMEN, and many others where the games have unusually high left outlane drains, and new players walk away disgusted because they just blew 1$ for 45 seconds of frustration.

    Now, as a home user, I dont mind the games being hard, but like John Popadiuk says, if we aren't designing games to bring new players in, then Pinball may as well be dead now. And that is a day I would like to avoid.

    -6
    #155 6 years ago

    So far, worst thread of the new year!

    #156 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    Compare spiderman against the follow up games like Tron, Avatar, Ironman, XMEN, and many others where the games have unusually high left outlane drains, and new players walk away disgusted because they just blew 1$ for 45 seconds of frustration.

    Iron Man supposedly earns spectacularly well for a today pin on route. Doesn't seem like new players are walking away disgusted, but instead putting in another 50 cents to try to bash the monger.

    The argument though is that earnings on route do not equate to a good game for new players, so this is circular and it sucks because it isn't a Bally / Williams.

    I challenge you with no pinball knowledge to walk up to either JD or NBAFB and know what is going on in 5 games. As someone in the recent JD thread just mentioned, they had it for more than a year and didn't realize you could change modes. If you step back, it isn't the manufacturers themselves with the issue, it is certain titles from certain manufacturers.

    #157 6 years ago

    I played TZ as a kid a million times, and have played it a million more as an adult. I still don't feel like I have a good grasp on the rules.

    It actually seems easier today because you can hop on your phone and watch a video for almost any pinball machine in existence and figure out what to do. Back then, it was try and follow the small instruction or trial and error.

    #158 6 years ago
    Quoted from sturner:

    I played TZ as a kid a million times, and have played it a million more as an adult. I still don't feel like I have a good grasp on the rules.

    Amen to that!

    #159 6 years ago
    Quoted from mechslave:

    So far, worst thread of the new year!

    The only thread I bothered reading apart from 'I'm addicted to Pinside', so it can't be that bad...

    Personally, I can see what the op is getting at... another major setback IMO re Sterns is the lack of cows... with B/W you got a feeling of the fun of the B/W team were having in making the games... which would filter through to the player through cows and give the player more of a feeling of fun while playing... Stern games all have an air of seriousness about them that can make them a bit teduious at times... Apart from ones that are linked to a comedy theme, but still, where are the cows

    That's my half-penneth anyway...

    #160 6 years ago

    I can understand the op.
    Take a look at 24. The colors of the status progress inserts are chosen in a total unlogical way to the goals you have to archieve to acomplish them to light up.
    I had fun with this game, but with a little more good will they could have made it easier to get into the game.
    And that is only one example of many games I have played. I don't know if that's only a STERN thing, but they haven't improved in this. Perhaps the right use of the multicolor LED Inserts can help new players to get easier access.
    We will see.

    #161 6 years ago

    I have a buddy that is an op and he says the Sterns are outperforming the Williams. I think the cash box speaks with authority . He has been selling all his Williams and buying the latest Sterns. All are performing very, very well.

    In terms of your observation about it being clear what shot to hit, I think Stern with the exception of a few games, has done a great job. When I first played LOTR, I figure it out pretty quickly. Same with Xmen, Avengers, Tron, etc. All very clear.

    In the case of Xmen, there is a massive Wolverine toy. Hit that x times and start multiball. Don't think it can get any more obvious than than. Same with Avengers. Massive, moving Hulk toy. Hit it and start multiball.

    Once you get over the obvious MB, I think Stern is kicking a$$ by providing deeper rules. I personally own Spiderman, LOTR, and TSPP. I'll take any of these three over any Williams A title. The rules just don't compare.

    Cheers,
    Duane

    #162 6 years ago
    Quoted from pinballslave:

    The only thread I bothered reading apart from 'I'm addicted to Pinside', so it can't be that bad...
    Personally, I can see what the op is getting at... another major setback IMO re Sterns is the lack of cows... with B/W you got a feeling of the fun of the B/W team were having in making the games... which would filter through to the player through cows and give the player more of a feeling of fun while playing... Stern games all have an air of seriousness about them that can make them a bit teduious at times... Apart from ones that are linked to a comedy theme, but still, where are the cows
    That's my half-penneth anyway...

    The licensed themes of Stern games likely keeps this from happening. Although the cows made an appearance in BBH.

    #163 6 years ago
    Quoted from hank527:

    Problem is you played X-men. That game is a mess. Any game next to it is going to be easier to understand.

    Why is this thread still going on??? You have made your point and you are a bitter buyer of a bad game. Get over it....Move on......We all have made purchases that were not as expected.

    Geeesssshhhh!!!!

    #164 6 years ago
    Quoted from perryd:

    We all have made purchases that were not as expected.

    Like that mail order bride?

    #165 6 years ago

    I love lamp.

    #166 6 years ago
    Quoted from TwilightZone:

    I have a buddy that is an op and he says the Sterns are outperforming the Williams. I think the cash box speaks with authority . He has been selling all his Williams and buying the latest Sterns. All are performing very, very well.
    In terms of your observation about it being clear what shot to hit, I think Stern with the exception of a few games, has done a great job. When I first played LOTR, I figure it out pretty quickly. Same with Xmen, Avengers, Tron, etc. All very clear.
    In the case of Xmen, there is a massive Wolverine toy. Hit that x times and start multiball. Don't think it can get any more obvious than than. Same with Avengers. Massive, moving Hulk toy. Hit it and start multiball.
    Once you get over the obvious MB, I think Stern is kicking a$$ by providing deeper rules. I personally own spiderman, LOTR, and TSPP. I'll take any of these three over any Williams A title. The rules just don't compare.
    Cheers,
    Duane

    And I'm the opposite. I had LOTR for eight years and no doubt it's a great pin.....but 2hr games where killing me. I started to avoid playing it because I didn't want to commit the time. Same reason TSPP is not on my want list.

    #167 6 years ago
    Quoted from pinballslave:

    The only thread I bothered reading apart from 'I'm addicted to Pinside', so it can't be that bad...
    Personally, I can see what the op is getting at... another major setback IMO re Sterns is the lack of cows... with B/W you got a feeling of the fun of the B/W team were having in making the games... which would filter through to the player through cows and give the player more of a feeling of fun while playing... Stern games all have an air of seriousness about them that can make them a bit teduious at times... Apart from ones that are linked to a comedy theme, but still, where are the cows
    That's my half-penneth anyway...

    Could have a 'save the cow' campaign??

    #168 6 years ago
    Quoted from Astropin:

    And I'm the opposite. I had LOTR for eight years and no doubt it's a great pin.....but 2hr games where killing me. I started to avoid playing it because I didn't want to commit the time. Same reason TSPP is not on my want list.

    Open the outlanes and make it steeper. The game is not supposed to last that long. LOTR can have long ball times, but some adjusting can really go a long way. Same for TSPP, which already has much lower ball times than LOTR anyway.

    #169 6 years ago
    Quoted from perryd:

    You have made your point and you are a bitter buyer of a bad game. Get over it

    I don't think the op actually said he was against the Stern game, just an observation that his son found it easier to get into the IJ...

    Quoted from DrJoe:

    The licensed themes of Stern games likely keeps this from happening. Although the cows made an appearance in BBH.

    Mmmm, didn't realise BBH has cows... not actually played that one... Now you've got me thinking what B/W games were licenced and had cows or easter eggs... Did JD have 'em... or DM... TZ, TAF... BSD...? It's a while since I played these games...

    Quoted from Shapeshifter:

    Could have a 'save the cow' campaign??

    Now that's an idea! Bring back the cows!

    #170 6 years ago

    I played a monopoly slot machine the othe day, pretty sure it was a WMS, and guess what, frickin cows. Didn't think about it until you mentioned it.

    #171 6 years ago
    Quoted from pinballkim:

    I played a Monopoly slot machine the othe day, pretty sure it was a WMS, and guess what, frickin cows. Didn't think about it until you mentioned it.

    Cows live forever!!

    #172 6 years ago

    LOL Worst thread, meaning the OP asks questions and ignores the answers, or says answers don't count from certain people like Lloyd. I mean, seriously? I stopped reading when I saw the OP say that Lloyd's opinion doesn't count. Haha...

    The OP makes sweeping, false generalizations throughout the thread, and when confronted with reality and opposing facts, chooses to ignore them, or make another false generalization. It's just a terrible, frustrating read.

    Newsflash: Players do not walk away disgusted after playing Tron, IM, etc.

    #173 6 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    Open the outlanes and make it steeper. The game is not supposed to last that long. LOTR can have long ball times, but some adjusting can really go a long way. Same for TSPP, which already has much lower ball times than LOTR anyway.

    Sure.....and then you don't get anywhere.

    I want to finish the game....or at least get to the final mode and I don't want it to take two+ hours to do so.

    WCS is pretty easy. I can win the World Cup in about 20 minutes.....never seems to get old though (as long as I have some other machines to mix up the play).

    #174 6 years ago
    Quoted from pinballslave:

    I don't think the op actually said he was against the Stern game, just an observation that his son found it easier to get into the IJ...
    Mmmm, didn't realise BBH has cows... not actually played that one... Now you've got me thinking what B/W games were licenced and had cows or easter eggs... Did JD have 'em... or DM... TZ, TAF... BSD...? It's a while since I played these games...
    Now that's an idea! Bring back the cows!

    No cows in the games you mentioned. Not sure how Marvel would approve a cow making an appearance in Avengers!!!

    Some of my favorite cows from the 90's are ToTAN's "a new cow!" from the bazaar and "meathead" on Scared Stiff.

    #175 6 years ago
    Quoted from Astropin:

    Sure.....and then you don't get anywhere.
    I want to finish the game....or at least get to the final mode and I don't want it to take two+ hours to do so.
    WCS is pretty easy. I can win the World Cup in about 20 minutes.....never seems to get old though (as long as I have some other machines to mix up the play).

    You can do Destroy the Ring in under 20 minutes easily. Same for something like Alien Invasion or lots of other mini wizard modes on TSPP. The hard to get to wizard modes are meant to be rewards for a very, very special game, but there are lots of modes that are considered wizard modes that you can achieve in a normal amount of time.

    I love WCS94. I miss mine badly after selling it. But when I owned it, I could finish the thing about 80% of the time I played it, and little was left for me to challenge myself. I really like the game, but if it had a harder to achieve wizard mode, something like There and Back Again or Valinor, it would have gone a long way towards making that game a harder one to part with.

    #176 6 years ago
    Quoted from mechslave:

    LOL Worst thread, meaning the OP asks questions and ignores the answers, or says answers don't count from certain people like Lloyd. I mean, seriously? I stopped reading when I saw the OP say that Lloyd's opinion doesn't count. Haha...

    To be fair now, he did say if he had trouble with a machine he would IM me.

    Now I don't know why he'd want to Iron Man me, but I'm waiting patiently.

    LTG : )

    #177 6 years ago
    Quoted from AkumaZeto:

    I would take the 67 gt40 over the 06 anyday

    As a driver and/or investor.. sure. But if you were stuck to riding shotgun in said car for 100k miles I think you may change your mind?

    Newer tend to run/play better in my opinion. But it's just an opinion

    #178 6 years ago
    Quoted from pinballslave:

    Did JD have 'em... or DM... TZ, TAF... BSD...?

    DM yes, but I think that is it. JD has it's own fun little things in it, but it is harder with licensed themes.

    Quoted from mechslave:

    Newsflash: Players do not walk away disgusted after playing Tron, IM, etc.

    Actually, from sources that I know, while Tron is a very popular home game, I have been told it does nothing on route. I know of someone who does some routing that had one out, and he said that it was the worst machine that he ever had at the location he put it out at, and it only earned half of what other machines their earned.

    I think that is because it doesn't have a bit obvious, "this is what you shoot at" shot. The disc, while cool, doesn't make a new player think, "OOooooo, I want to find out what that does!" It doesn't look like it does anything.

    Quoted from jar155:

    I love WCS94. I miss mine badly after selling it. But when I owned it, I could finish the thing about 80% of the time I played it, and little was left for me to challenge myself.

    You know, you can set it up harder. I've had WCS94 for about a year now, and I have been to the wizard mode once. Besides that, it was used exactly as it sits in the MGC pinball tournament last year, and the top players didn't get their either. If I set it up too easy, I'm certain I wouldn't care for it though.

    #179 6 years ago
    Quoted from Don1:

    As a driver and/or investor.. sure. But if you were stuck to riding shotgun in said car for 100k miles I think you may change your mind?

    Newer tend to run/play better in my opinion. But it's just an opinion

    I was purely talking cars i prefer the newer sterns as well i have played all the B/W to death. But i love me some bone jarring kidney pounding uncomfortable REAL sports cars. But 100k in one geesh that means at least 60 pit stops for carb adjustments alone

    I drove a Ford Gt in 2006. The dealership i worked at had "JUST" become blue oval certified and we got two in. Both where taken out and driven exactly 1,000 miles by a "A" tech like myself and then drained complelty of fluids and sold to the same person. One was then raffled off by the MArshfield Clinic for cancer awareness. While the new GT was very awesome it was to much creature comfort for me. I prefer raw thrills with minimal padding so to speak. Its prob why i also hate the gt500 as well. Fun yes....but very bloated. I will have to dig up photos of me and the GT they are on 35mm some where.

    #180 6 years ago

    Long ball times need deep rules.

    #181 6 years ago
    Quoted from goatdan:

    Iron Man supposedly earns spectacularly well for a today pin on route. Doesn't seem like new players are walking away disgusted, but instead putting in another 50 cents to try to bash the monger.

    I operate an Iron Man, and this has not been true in my experience. Although it is one of my better-earning pins overall, it is solidly below Lord of the Rings, Batman Dark Knight, and Pirates of the Caribbean in earnings. When I talk to casual players about it (which I do constantly), they say that they just don't get their money/time worth on Iron Man vs a game like BDK or LOTR that is packed with modes and satisfying multiballs with loud, obvious "jackpot" calls. I've also without question heard more complaints and profanity thrown toward Iron Man than any other game I have. It definitely ropes people in for a couple of games -- especially newbies and kids who like the theme -- but I would not say it instills an addictive, "gotta keep trying" feeling in them in the long run. It just ends up pissing them off. I have tried to make it easier (15 second ball saver!) but that hasn't helped a whole lot. It did incredibly well for the first couple of weeks but dropped off hard. Games like LOTR and BDK on the other hand have cruised along at the same level for the entire time I've had them on route.

    #182 6 years ago
    Quoted from goatdan:

    You know, you can set it up harder. I've had WCS94 for about a year now, and I have been to the wizard mode once. Besides that, it was used exactly as it sits in the MGC pinball tournament last year, and the top players didn't get their either. If I set it up too easy, I'm certain I wouldn't care for it though.

    3 balls, steep, and no score-based extra balls. I set most my games up pretty hard.

    #183 6 years ago
    Quoted from bobbyconover:

    I operate an Iron Man, and this has not been true in my experience. Although it is one of my better-earning pins overall, it is solidly below Lord of the Rings, Batman Dark Knight, and Pirates of the Caribbean in earnings

    The op that was telling me this said that it was outearned by BDK, POTC and BBH, but they have TONS of pins on route, so I felt that was pretty good.

    Quoted from jar155:

    3 balls, steep, and no score-based extra balls. I set most my games up pretty hard.

    Open outlanes? If you set up WCS hard, I can't imagine anyone reaching the wizard mode 80% of the time. Lyman and Zach both didn't sniff it all weekend.

    #184 6 years ago
    Quoted from AkumaZeto:

    I will have to dig up photos of me and the GT they are on 35mm some where.

    Awesome! Lol I knew as I typed my reply that there was a big part of me thinking how I would never say no to 100k miles in the older version Love hearing stories like that about being 'forced' to drive exotics, dream jobs do exist!

    #185 6 years ago
    Quoted from Don1:

    Awesome! Lol I knew as I typed my reply that there was a big part of me thinking how I would never say no to 100k miles in the older version Love hearing stories like that about being 'forced' to drive exotics, dream jobs do exist!

    I cant fit in the older one i am to tall. the 40 in gt 40 is the distance from the ground to the roof. The New gt was 43 inches so i fit....BARELY. The car is fun but 500hp to me is not a super ton of power. Same engine as the Lighting pickup after all. The transaxle setup and gearing is what make the GT such a fun car.

    #186 6 years ago
    Quoted from goatdan:

    Actually, from sources that I know, while Tron is a very popular home game, I have been told it does nothing on route. I know of someone who does some routing that had one out, and he said that it was the worst machine that he ever had at the location he put it out at, and it only earned half of what other machines their earned.

    I think that is because it doesn't have a bit obvious, "this is what you shoot at" shot. The disc, while cool, doesn't make a new player think, "OOooooo, I want to find out what that does!" It doesn't look like it does anything.

    Yeah, I've heard the same thing about Tron. A friend of mine bought two Tron Pros about four months after their release, for $2000 each, because they literally earned nothing, like accidental tokens only, less than $20 a month average. The op was disgusted with them and wanted them gone.

    On the other hand, IJ4 outearns almost any pin on location. There's not always a lot of rhyme or reason to pinball earnings, and it doesn't always translate into a good home game, sometimes but not all. TZ is a favorite of many collectors, but it was a notorious earnings under-acheiver.

    Pinside isn't Replay magazine, though, so by and large we are evaluating machines based on how well they are suited to home collections and gamerooms, as opposed to what machine will bring in the most quarters.

    #187 6 years ago
    Quoted from bobbyconover:

    I operate an Iron Man, and this has not been true in my experience. Although it is one of my better-earning pins overall, it is solidly below Lord of the Rings, Batman Dark Knight, and Pirates of the Caribbean in earnings. When I talk to casual players about it (which I do constantly), they say that they just don't get their money/time worth on Iron Man vs a game like BDK or LOTR that is packed with modes and satisfying multiballs with loud, obvious "jackpot" calls. I've also without question heard more complaints and profanity thrown toward Iron Man than any other game I have. It definitely ropes people in for a couple of games -- especially newbies and kids who like the theme -- but I would not say it instills an addictive, "gotta keep trying" feeling in them in the long run. It just ends up pissing them off. I have tried to make it easier (15 second ball saver!) but that hasn't helped a whole lot. It did incredibly well for the first couple of weeks but dropped off hard. Games like LOTR and BDK on the other hand have cruised along at the same level for the entire time I've had them on route.

    Have you thought about setting it for 4-ball, or even 5-ball play? I know that's bad for home play, but if it puts more money in the cash box, go for it! It'll still be much shorter than games on your other pins.

    #188 6 years ago

    Do you really love the lamp or are you just saying that because its in the room?

    #189 6 years ago
    Quoted from mechslave:

    LOL Worst thread, meaning the OP asks questions and ignores the answers, or says answers don't count from certain people like Lloyd. I mean, seriously? I stopped reading when I saw the OP say that Lloyd's opinion doesn't count. Haha...

    The OP makes sweeping, false generalizations throughout the thread, and when confronted with reality and opposing facts, chooses to ignore them, or make another false generalization. It's just a terrible, frustrating read.

    Fair enough... I have to admit I hadn't read the whole thread, just the opening post and a few responses... My bad

    Quoted from mechslave:

    Newsflash: Players do not walk away disgusted after playing Tron, IM, etc.

    I'm not sure I fully agree with this though... I was a bit pissed with my Tron I have to say... I wouldn't go as far as to say disgusted, but I was very dissapointed with several aspects of the game and it found a new home fairly quickly, and has been moved on from there too now I gather...

    #190 6 years ago
    Quoted from bobbyconover:

    operate an Iron Man, and this has not been true in my experience. Although it is one of my better-earning pins overall, it is solidly below Lord of the Rings, Batman Dark Knight, and Pirates of the Caribbean in earnings. When I talk to casual players about it (which I do constantly), they say that they just don't get their money/time worth on Iron Man vs a game like BDK or LOTR

    An interesting a very valid observation... players who play on site have to pay per game, so a short game (TRON included) will equal poor value for money, whereas the home user doesn't give a s**t if the game is short, in fact it has a distinct advantage at times! This 'average ball time' alone would drive a big divide between what makes a good sited game and what makes a good home game.

    #191 6 years ago
    Quoted from pinballslave:

    An interesting a very valid observation... players who play on site have to pay per game, so a short game (TRON included) will equal poor value for money, whereas the home user doesn't give a s**t if the game is short, in fact it has a distinct advantage at times! This 'average ball time' alone would drive a big divide between what makes a good sited game and what makes a good home game.

    Well put. It is a challenge to be between a good earning machine (lots of quarters per hour) vs one that people feel like they got value out of. This is where the OP is pitched against the player. The OP wants short games with a lot of return, while the player wants a long game and the feeling of accomplishing something.

    This is why Highspeed was so amazing when it first released. It was so obvious what you had to do, make the light red, and run it. Everything you did accomplished tasks towards completing this goal. Then, when you finally ran that red light and the whole machine started flashing, it was pure bliss. This was a typical Ritchie game too. One that punished you for missing a shot and had many angles that lead to hard instant outlane drains. Yet, Highspeed is credited to be the machine that started a pinball explosion, because it was the first machine to tell a *story*. To hear Steve Ritchie tell this story is really eye opening.

    This single game set the stage to bring a generation of new players to the field (including myself). Simple rulesets with obvious gameplay is what draws new people in. They feel like they just accomplished something without any training, and this gets them coming back for more.

    #192 6 years ago

    I've played damn near every game ever made it seems (I live by a massive pinball arcade).

    Now, years later... I prefer Stern? Weird!

    I can't believe it but its true.

    The obvious moment of clarity for me was during an 8 hour tourney. When a Stern game was up I reeeeally enjoyed the tournament. When a WMS came up I still had fun but yearned for the next Stern title on our list.

    There are exceptions. TZ, IJ, STTNG, AFM & MM. Other than that I'd rather play most of the Sterns.

    #193 6 years ago
    Quoted from mechslave:

    Pinside isn't Replay magazine, though, so by and large we are evaluating machines based on how well they are suited to home collections and gamerooms, as opposed to what machine will bring in the most quarters.

    Yes, but this thread was supposedly about how pinball 'newbs' appreciate a game. I just personally don't think that those people who have multiple machines at home can really try to state that based on their experiences, they know what attracts someone that really never plays. On the flip side, you have the coin box, which is a pretty good indicator of if people out there in the wild are willing to drop coin into the coin box.

    Generally, those that own games are pretty picky about the games they play, and the majority of people on here I bet do not play route pinball regularly at all.

    It's totally a different world, but for *this argument* I think it's very relevant

    #194 6 years ago
    Quoted from goatdan:

    Yes, but this thread was supposedly about how pinball 'newbs' appreciate a game. I just personally don't think that those people who have multiple machines at home can really try to state that based on their experiences, they know what attracts someone that really never plays. On the flip side, you have the coin box, which is a pretty good indicator of if people out there in the wild are willing to drop coin into the coin box.
    Generally, those that own games are pretty picky about the games they play, and the majority of people on here I bet do not play route pinball regularly at all.
    It's totally a different world, but for *this argument* I think it's very relevant

    Very true, its hard for Pin owners to step back and try to look at a game from the point of view of someone that maybe has never played pinball. This is why I love watching kids play pinball. If they can figure it out, then I believe it is all designed machine for beginning players.

    In my personal collection, IJ is a crowd favorite. Everyone figures out quickly to shoot for the mode start shot and the lock shot. Even with no knowledge of pinball, for some reason that game is just easy for new players. The great thing is IJ rewards you with seemingly random multiballs from mode start and easy to start multiball center shot modes. The biggest failing of this machine is the elephant. No body knows whats happening at first and the balls just drain down the center at first, but the ball save fixes that I suppose.

    Next is AFM. That game is just so easy to understand and has many different methods of playing the game, so everyone has fun. The games that dont get played much are CFTBL, XMEN and TZ. FT seems to be on and off, while CV is loved but its punishing to new players in terms of ball times, so people quit it pretty quickly.

    #195 6 years ago

    Quoting you in reverse order, but it'll make sense, I swear...

    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    Next is AFM. That game is just so easy to understand and has many different methods of playing the game, so everyone has fun. The games that dont get played much are CFTBL, XMEN and TZ. FT seems to be on and off, while CV is loved but its punishing to new players in terms of ball times, so people quit it pretty quickly.

    Which means that in a relatively small sampling, people prefer a few of the B/W titles before they prefer the single Stern game that you have right now. And that makes sense. From what I understand, as it stands XMEN is hard to understand, and it also doesn't have that "it" factor of seeing something cool that makes you go "What does that do?" when you walk up to it.

    TZ, for all of the junk on it, also is missing that. The Power playfield thing is just baffling, the gumdrop machine doesn't really get interacted with directly, and it doesn't give you that, "Wow! Look at that!" sensation. It was a complete and utter route turd. 12 years ago, I turned them down left and right for $1500 *or less*. It wasn't until the game got into a home environment that it started to become loved.

    It proves my point perfectly about how it isn't the manufacturer, it's the machine itself. If people step back and objectively look at Twilight Zone, it's a TON of stuff crammed into a box in what appears to be a rather nonsensical way. Yeah, with some work and paying attention, you can figure out what you're doing and if you like it it's an incredible game, but if you don't... eh.

    There are certain Stern games that are very obvious with what to do when they start, and there are others that aren't. Depends on the game. X-Men might become an obvious game like that, or it also might become a deep and beloved game like TZ, or it might just sort of be good. But don't judge every Stern game on just one.

    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    The biggest failing of this machine is the elephant. No body knows whats happening at first and the balls just drain down the center at first, but the ball save fixes that I suppose.

    Well, and with a giant issue like that, does that really make it a perfectly designed game for a new player? I have no idea why so many people walk up to NBAFB and then don't understand how to fire the ball in, wait for it whenever it wants you to use the backbox or In the Paint shots, and then keep playing it, but they do. I think it's because you have an obvious, look-at-that-center-ramp-into-the-hoop to aim for. The game has a ton of flaws, but new players keep playing it.

    There are some games that are more attractive than others for new players. The name on the backbox has nothing to do with that, and if I was routing games right now, I'd want to start with a whole ton of *certain*, awesomely attractive Stern titles for longevity and earning's sake.

    -1
    #196 6 years ago
    Quoted from goatdan:

    Quoting you in reverse order, but it'll make sense, I swear...

    Which means that in a relatively small sampling, people prefer a few of the B/W titles before they prefer the single Stern game that you have right now. And that makes sense. From what I understand, as it stands XMEN is hard to understand, and it also doesn't have that "it" factor of seeing something cool that makes you go "What does that do?" when you walk up to it.
    TZ, for all of the junk on it, also is missing that. The Power playfield thing is just baffling, the gumdrop machine doesn't really get interacted with directly, and it doesn't give you that, "Wow! Look at that!" sensation. It was a complete and utter route turd. 12 years ago, I turned them down left and right for $1500 *or less*. It wasn't until the game got into a home environment that it started to become loved.
    It proves my point perfectly about how it isn't the manufacturer, it's the machine itself. If people step back and objectively look at Twilight Zone, it's a TON of stuff crammed into a box in what appears to be a rather nonsensical way. Yeah, with some work and paying attention, you can figure out what you're doing and if you like it it's an incredible game, but if you don't... eh.
    There are certain Stern games that are very obvious with what to do when they start, and there are others that aren't. Depends on the game. X-Men might become an obvious game like that, or it also might become a deep and beloved game like TZ, or it might just sort of be good. But don't judge every Stern game on just one.

    Well, and with a giant issue like that, does that really make it a perfectly designed game for a new player? I have no idea why so many people walk up to NBAFB and then don't understand how to fire the ball in, wait for it whenever it wants you to use the backbox or In the Paint shots, and then keep playing it, but they do. I think it's because you have an obvious, look-at-that-center-ramp-into-the-hoop to aim for. The game has a ton of flaws, but new players keep playing it.
    There are some games that are more attractive than others for new players. The name on the backbox has nothing to do with that, and if I was routing games right now, I'd want to start with a whole ton of *certain*, awesomely attractive Stern titles for longevity and earning's sake.

    I agree with everything you say here. TZ was a total turd on route, I remember as well. However, Stern is the only currently shipping pin manufacturer out right now, and the bulk of their previous games have been difficult to understand. Sure, it has nothing to do with the name on the box, but when you are the only one, you dont have to go far to figure out who is making it.

    The title I chose for this OP was incorrect, and overly aggressive. The only point I am making, and one that everyone seems to mostly miss, is that we need to see more easy to understand games in the market place. Reason being is if you alienate the entire new gen of pin players, you just lost pinball, and that is something this community of players seems to be missing. Good thing John Popadiuk understands this, but when he is only making craft games, it doesnt help pinball as a whole.

    #197 6 years ago

    Wish I had started this thread. I!'d have a quatrillion karma points by now!

    #198 6 years ago

    I started this thread and I dont have a quatrillion karma points. In fact, I have been a member of these forums longer then 90% of the people posting, but then again I dont karma farm.

    BTW: Goatdan has been the only one that I have read that is actually thinking about this question in the right frame of mind. I cant agree that the elephant is a huge failing for IJ (it has a ball save after all so its a noop imho), but I definitely enjoy reading your thoughts.

    -1
    #199 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    Man AC/DC is one of the worst games ever made IMHO. Ill take a Tron (any version) over that anyday. spiderman is a fantastic game, but does not contain the obvious mode advancement that many of the games in my collection contain.

    "One of the worst games EVER MADE "???
    You Sir, are what I would refer to as an idiot. Clearly I'm not alone in my thinking. Check out the top 100 if you disagree.

    -1
    #200 6 years ago
    Quoted from Chambahz:

    "One of the worst games EVER MADE "???
    You Sir, are what I would refer to as an idiot. Clearly I'm not alone in my thinking. Check out the top 100 if you disagree.

    I am glad you think I am an idiot. In other news, no one cares.

    I dont like AC/DC and I dont care what the "top 100" says. In fact, since you didn't say "top 10" or even "top 20" that lends more credability to what I am saying. That game shipped with some of the worst software I have ever seen. So bad that I could just do nothing and let the cannon shoot the right ramp over and over. Fun. I love Ritchie, but this is the worst game he has ever made IN MY OPINION. Just because I dont like what you like, doesnt make me an idiot, it makes you close minded. And what the hell does this have to do with games being easier to understand?

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