(Topic ID: 35605)

Stern Pinball, and Why Williams Still Outperforms Them


By PDXGeek

6 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 310 posts
  • 94 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by PDXGeek
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    There have been 6 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

    201205161503030.kleeenex-portfolio.jpg
    BEYOTCH.jpg
    Fthis.gif
    Awarded_no_points.jpg
    L-Ford-GT-40-5.jpg
    Ford-GT_mp8_pic_21988.jpg

    There are 310 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 7.
    #51 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    I thank Williams for still continuing to provide accessability along with fun even 20 years later. I only wish that everyone else was enjoying this hobby as much as my 9 year old son does.

    Well since Williams decided to shut its Pinball division we really dont have many other choices now do we? Ive had my share of both BWM's pins & Sterns and yes I'd agree that multiballs on the early 90's machines were probably coded better but Stern has put out some pretty nice games over the past few years. You can continue to support a company that turned its back on you or try to support the company thats still making us games to play. They might give us dud's from time to time but hasnt every company???

    #52 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    Cool, I guess the mode starts of the Piano and Slot Machine are too confusing for you. You know, the shots that when you make them stop the ball for several seconds while telling you whats next. Where as making a shot in XMEN, ACDC, TRON, spiderman, while all making progress, do nothing until you have made the shot multiple times. Or how about IJ, where hitting mode start actually starts a mode and gives you goals?

    There are plenty of B/W & Stern games that start modes w/ multiple shots

    There are plenty of B/W & Stern games that start modes w/ a single shot.

    Clearly, you don't like multiple shot/start mode games.

    Solution = Sell your X-Men.

    #53 6 years ago
    Quoted from NathanP:

    I played an AC/DC LE this weekend, it was a drain monster, it was flashy and neat to look at, but a complete bore to play.

    Wait. It was a drain monster AND boring? How is that even possible?

    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    My son evaluates this before every game. On the Williams games (FT, CV, AFM etc) this is obvious. He knows what he has to do to start something.

    You should have your son try a POTC. I bet he'll figure out what to do. Even if all the playfield lights are burned out. Hell, I've seen 7 year olds beat up on Pirate's, then brag to the 5 year olds about it afterward.

    #54 6 years ago

    The reality is without Stern there may have been no new pinballs the last 12 years. So my hats off to them!

    #55 6 years ago
    Quoted from smassa:

    Well since Williams decided to shut its Pinball division we really dont have many other choices now do we? Ive had my share of both BWM's pins & Sterns and yes I'd agree that multiballs on the early 90's machines were probably coded better but Stern has put out some pretty nice games over the past few years. You can continue to support a company that turned its back on you or try to support the company thats still making us games to play. They might give us dud's from time to time but hasnt every company???

    I never said anyone should turn their backs on Stern. I appreciate anyone that continues to make Pinball games because I love pinball. I am simply pointing out that the old WMS games had better new player approachability then the Stern. I am just thankful that I am in a position to own several pins and allow my son and extended family to enjoy them.

    #56 6 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    The reality is without Stern there may have been no new pinballs the last 12 years. So my hats off to them!

    And there would be no AC/DC.....the rest of their games could have been turds for all I care but they nailed this one!!!

    #57 6 years ago
    Quoted from phishrace:

    Wait. It was a drain monster AND boring? How is that even possible?

    You should have your son try a POTC. I bet he'll figure out what to do. Even if all the playfield lights are burned out. Hell, I've seen 7 year olds beat up on Pirate's, then brag to the 5 year olds about it afterward.

    I actually had a POTC for awhile. The design was terrible and the gameplay was uninispiring. I really wanted to love that game because the ship was cool. My son still preferred AFM over POTC.

    #58 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    I actually had a POTC for awhile. The design was terrible and the gameplay was uninispiring. I really wanted to love that game because the ship was cool. My son still preferred AFM over POTC.

    POTC is the anti AFM (flow style) pin. You simply bought the wrong Stern in Xmen. Try SM if your son likes superhero theme's or pick up a ACDC Premium if you want a complex & innovative ruleset.

    #59 6 years ago

    I just had the neighbor's kids over who played my XMEN LE for over 2 hours. I couldn't get them off the machine. My fiancee who's never owned a pinball, nor even played one before and loves it. Its all about having fun, which is what this is about right? having fun? This X-MEN LE bad code stuff is getting OLD quick. Every topic is the same thing! LOL Of course I could always not read these posts...so i guess thats my fault!

    -1
    #60 6 years ago
    Quoted from smassa:

    And there would be no AC/DC.....the rest of their games could have been turds for all I care but they nailed this one!!!

    Sure, this may be true. But more importantly, the popularity of the WMS games over the past several years has brought back all of the old school designers. Now you have JJ, Popadiuk, and other NEW MANUFACTURES talking about the old games, not the new games and then providing new material. I thank WMS for this.

    When I go to the local Pinball competitions, no one plays Stern, infact they dont even make money (as quoted by JJ). We all play the old 90s games because they were so good. However, this detracts from what I am saying. I dont intend to have a "Stern Sucks" party, I am simply pointing out how new players see the WMS games as intuitive (example my son though I can add many others) and the Stern games get passed by.

    -1
    #61 6 years ago
    Quoted from smassa:

    POTC is the anti AFM (flow style) pin. You simply bought the wrong Stern in Xmen. Try SM if your son likes superhero theme's or pick up a ACDC Premium if you want a complex & innovative ruleset.

    Man AC/DC is one of the worst games ever made IMHO. Ill take a Tron (any version) over that anyday. Spiderman is a fantastic game, but does not contain the obvious mode advancement that many of the games in my collection contain.

    #62 6 years ago

    When I used to play TSPP at Chucky cheese with my daughter, It sure seemed a lot like like an older Williams game.

    #63 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    I got great support for my 90s games when they [Bally / Williams] were still in business. Timely and free updates to the ball stuck scenarios along with timely software upgrades. Apparently your experience differed.

    Even though I was a test operator for Lieberman Music Co. for 19 years, yes, my experienced differed.

    LTG : )

    #64 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    When I go to the local Pinball competitions, no one plays Stern, infact they dont even make money (as quoted by JJ). We all play the old 90s games because they were so good. However, this detracts from what I am saying. I dont intend to have a "Stern Sucks" party, I am simply pointing out how new players see the WMS games as intuitive (example my son though I can add many others) and the Stern games get passed by.

    The ACDC Premium on location in town is kicking ass. Ive had pretty much every "a" list title Willaims & still love them & will be adding another AFM soon but if I had to only have one pin they would all be out the door in favor of a Stern. To say that some of the better recent stern's "arent good" Isnt giving them their due credit. Most were Designed & Programmed by the same people who you are giving sooo much credit to for all those great 90's pins.

    #65 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    Man AC/DC is one of the worst games ever made IMHO.

    Let me guess you played it what? 3 or 4 games? Was it a Pro or LE?

    #66 6 years ago

    AC/DC makes me happy unlike no other pin. I own a lot of B/W & Sterns. If you don't get it,I feel sorry for you.

    #67 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    I dont care about the perspective of an OP, I care about the perspective of a new player. I appreciate your time with being an OP, but the OP side of things vs the new player side of things are different.

    Then you should have stated that in your original post. And not included things that would bring an OP to challenge.

    LTG : )

    #68 6 years ago
    Quoted from Breadfan:

    AC/DC makes me happy unlike no other pin. I own a lot of B/W & Sterns. If you don't get it,I feel sorry for you.

    The people who usually bash ACDC have either not played it or only played it a few times. I remember when I had a couple local friends over the 1st time playing it they were getting their ass handed to them by the game. After a few more games & getting a feel for the shots thats all they wanted to play.

    #69 6 years ago

    I think some of you people just have too much of a bias. I'm not attached to any one manufacturer. I totally committed to buying a twilight zone, addams family, or a Williams Indiana Jones game. I found games to play in town, just to reaffirm I was making the right choice. The place that had the Addams Family had a x men LE and I couldn't stop playing it. As for the ease of play, my wife and I don't have kids, but every weekend we look after two girls with special needs. One of them is 8 and my wife has to take her to the rest room, the other is 6 and is last in her class at reading. Both of these girls jumped right on the X men LE I bought. First game the older one is verbally instructing the younger one on how to get more points and turn on the multi-ball. The 6 year old hopped right on the stool and got a higher score than her sister. TRUE STORY. With that said, who ever claims the stern is too complicated for a child needs to re assess. Luckily these little girls haven't been told about the code problems.

    #70 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    When I go to the local Pinball competitions, no one plays Stern,

    I am curious about this.

    I don't doubt you or anything, just wondering what is going on in these competitions.

    Take a look at the top players in pinball, and most are older and grew up playing Williams pins.

    Switch to a new pin, and you have to learn the game.

    If I were playing a game for 20 years, and another one for a couple years. I know which one I'd want to compete on. And Williams pins have been on the street for many years, while the newest Stern pins hardly get on location anymore.

    So my question to you is what do you think the typical age of you and the players you compete against is. Is it younger and newer players or older.

    I'm just trying to understand if there is something else going on besides manufacturer, like familiarity.

    LTG : )

    #71 6 years ago

    I agree with you if we are talking about xmen being unclear but not all sterns are like that. I put some time in on Avengers tonight and that game is pretty clear actually and was a BLAST to play!

    #72 6 years ago
    Quoted from smassa:

    The ACDC Premium on location in town is kicking ass. Ive had pretty much every "a" list title Willaims & still love them & will be adding another AFM soon but if I had to only have one pin they would all be out the door in favor of a Stern. To say that some of the better recent stern's "arent good" Isnt giving them their due credit. Most were Designed & Programmed by the same people who you are giving sooo much credit to for all those great 90's pins.

    Understood, that doesnt change my initial statement that new games are made for veteren players. In fact, your statement just supports that. I am simply stating that new games address the old players, and ignore the new players that need that old WMS games simplicity.

    -2
    #73 6 years ago
    Quoted from smassa:

    Let me guess you played it what? 3 or 4 games? Was it a Pro or LE?

    You dont want to know. It will make you mad.

    -1
    #74 6 years ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    Then you should have stated that in your original post. And not included things that would bring an OP to challenge.
    LTG : )

    Good thing there is an edit button. I never said I dont care about your personal opinion. However, including a statement from your professional work position clouds a realisitic player person. You are a minority even among people that actually OWN machines. However when I run into a problem I cant solve, dont think I wont send you an IM ;p

    #75 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    You dont want to know. It will make you mad.

    Ok then what your saying is youre just not very good.....

    -1
    #76 6 years ago
    Quoted from Breadfan:

    AC/DC makes me happy unlike no other pin. I own a lot of B/W & Sterns. If you don't get it,I feel sorry for you.

    Dont feel sorry for me. I like AC/DC music as well. But the cheapness in that design is horrific. T2 is a much better game in every way. Not only do you got 95% of AC/DC, but its much more fun!! (these statements are totally objective, but T2 is still better then AC/DC!) ;p

    -1
    #77 6 years ago
    Quoted from smassa:

    Ok then what your saying is your just not very good.....

    I have no idea what logic you used to come to that conclusion... Maybe you should come to the next Pacific NorthWest Tourney and then we can talk over a game of pinball.

    #78 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    Dont feel sorry for me. I like AC/DC music as well. But the cheapness in that design is horrific. T2 is a much better game in every way. Not only do you got 95% of AC/DC, but its much more fun!! (these statements are totally objective, but T2 is still better then AC/DC!) ;p

    Ok I guess you played a Pro. The Premium/LE isnt cheap at all.

    #79 6 years ago
    Quoted from smassa:

    Ok I guess you played a Pro. The Premium/LE isnt cheap at all.

    Actually it was an LE. I am definitely in a minority when I say I prefer the look of the machine WITHOUT the mini-playfield. That playfield is unenjoyable and embarassing.

    #80 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    Actually it was an LE. I am definitely in a minority when I say I prefer the look of the machine WITHOUT the mini-playfield. That playfield is unenjoyable and embarassing.

    Too each their own I guess. Luckily for us they make so many different games. Just going by the comments from some of the better known tournament players though ACDC has been extremely well received.

    #81 6 years ago
    Quoted from smassa:

    Too each their own I guess. Luckily for us they make so many different games. Just going by the comments from some of the better known tournament players though ACDC has been extremely well received.

    ACDC is a great tourney game. The rule set and software were done by a big tourney player, so this makes sense. However, knowing when you should cash in on that cannon jackpot does not make it an approachable game.

    Personally, I think the software is amazing from the standpoint of a tourney player. That doesn't mean that anyone regular Joe can understand what he is supposed to do on his first play.

    AC/DC was also the point when I realized that Stern ships games, even to their most valuable customers, before they are done. AC/DC required a few updates to make it even worthwhile to play. When it first came out I just let the cannon make my shots for me because it was so broken.

    #82 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    ACDC is a great tourney game. The rule set and software were done by a big tourney player, so this makes sense. However, knowing when you should cash in on that cannon jackpot does not make it an approachable game.
    Personally, I think the software is amazing from the standpoint of a tourney player. That doesn't mean that anyone regular Joe can understand what he is supposed to do on his first play.

    I guess thats what I like about it. If I figure out the games rules after 1 play its too simple. I totally understand where youre coming from when you say ACDC it maybe to complex at 1st for the new player but if they are willing to put some time in on it they will start to get a general idea of what to do.

    #83 6 years ago

    Sure, thats true for every game.

    #84 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    Dont feel sorry for me. I like AC/DC music as well. But the cheapness in that design is horrific. T2 is a much better game in every way.

    Y

    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    Dont feel sorry for me. I like AC/DC music as well. But the cheapness in that design is horrific. T2 is a much better game in every way. Not only do you got 95% of AC/DC, but its much more fun!! (these statements are totally objective, but T2 is still better then AC/DC!) ;p

    Your a smart and a fun dude no doubt but this is the dumbest thing i've heard all day.
    I couldn't disagree more.

    #85 6 years ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    I am curious about this.
    I don't doubt you or anything, just wondering what is going on in these competitions.
    Take a look at the top players in pinball, and most are older and grew up playing Williams pins.
    Switch to a new pin, and you have to learn the game.
    If I were playing a game for 20 years, and another one for a couple years. I know which one I'd want to compete on. And Williams pins have been on the street for many years, while the newest Stern pins hardly get on location anymore.
    So my question to you is what do you think the typical age of you and the players you compete against is. Is it younger and newer players or older.
    I'm just trying to understand if there is something else going on besides manufacturer, like familiarity.
    LTG : )

    Of course I would agree with familiarity in terms of performance. No one would disagree with that. I have never received a NIB WMS game that was non-operational out of the box. I have received a Stern that way though. But who cares, Stern sends you replacement parts until it works, so thats a good thing.

    Jersey Jack said it best when he decided to start a business making Pinballs instead of buying them. Its hard to disagree with the largest distributer of Stern pins when he says players dont like or understand the games anymore. Hard to believe any other company (of which there are several now) that would want to start up in a non-profitable business. Fortunately, they recognize a user base that is hungry for good games, and I am one hoping they can provide it.

    -1
    #86 6 years ago
    Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

    Y

    Your a smart and a fun dude no doubt but this is the dumbest thing i've heard all day.
    I couldn't disagree more.

    haha sup Monkey, seriously though. You would discredit T2 over AC/DC! You're a player man, what shot in AC/DC gives you that super jackpot pleasure of T2?

    #87 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    haha sup Monkey, seriously though. You would discredit T2 over AC/DC! You're a player man, what shot in AC/DC gives you that super jackpot pleasure of T2?

    Bell Super Jackpot with 3x running in any of the Multiballs.

    -1
    #88 6 years ago
    Quoted from smassa:

    Bell Super Jackpot with 3x running in any of the Multiballs.

    And what are the steps to accomplish this?

    T2 Super Jackpot
    - Lock Balls
    - Lock Ball during mball (or lock two for awesome)
    - Squeeze trigger for jackpot removing your hand from a flipper (x2)

    #89 6 years ago
    Quoted from smassa:

    Bell Super Jackpot with 3x running in any of the Multiballs.

    Damn beat me too it
    X3 better than t2's

    -1
    #90 6 years ago
    Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

    Damn beat me too it
    X3 better than t2's

    CFTBL 3x SJ is better then all of this BTW.

    #92 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    And what are the steps to accomplish this?
    T2 Super Jackpot
    - Lock Balls
    - Lock Ball during mball (or lock two for awesome)
    - Squeeze trigger for jackpot removing your hand from a flipper (x2)

    I guess you need to play it more if you dont know how.

    -2
    #93 6 years ago
    Quoted from smassa:

    I guess you need to play it more if you dont know how.

    Too complex to type, I get it.

    #94 6 years ago

    Seriously though,
    ACDC is a way better pin in my eyes
    The x2 and x3 bell shots add a lot to design and canon shots, way better than the T2 skull.
    I hear ya the rules are complex for beginners but usually they can get a ramp or album mb if they shoot the right ramp from time to time.
    Lower pf is awesome (x2 or x3 rules) but I also think there will be more lower pf with code enhancements such as scoring and with mb on main pf?!
    VIP pass is also genius.
    T2 goals are easy but after you figure where to hit for sj its pretty damn repeative.
    T2 doesn't even have a wizard mode.

    #95 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    Too complex to type, I get it.

    Not really....Just collect all the jackpots for each MB (Jam, Album, or Tour). Once all have been collected the Cannon is lit for the total of all Jackpots collected & nailing the bell will give you said total as a Super Jackpot. It obviously pays to have either 2x or 3x running while collecting jackpots & definitely want it lit when shooting for the super!!!

    #96 6 years ago
    Quoted from Capper96:

    One of the biggest gripes about the big three mm, mb, and AFM is that every lane is a jackpot in multiball.

    I don't think so for MM and MB. I'm not familiar with AFM as I've never played it more than a few times. But MM and MB have some pretty deep rulesets involved with their multiball modes.

    MM has a few multiball modes. You have Castle Multiball where you need to hit the Dragon and Peasant ramps a combined five times to light a Super Jackpot at the lock shot and trigger an Extra Ball light. When castle multiball starts only the ramps count for Jackpots and not the orbits, catapults, or castle shots. That extra ball light award for castle multiball is critical if you are going for BFTK wizard mode.

    MM Madness Multiball also only lights super jackpots for the madness modes that are activated. So if you only activate Catapult Madness then you won't get bonuses for hitting the other shots on the table. Carrying a multiball into trolls is also extremely useful for trying to get those ten troll kills necessary to complete that objective. So there are relatively deep rulesets to multiball modes on Medieval Madness. It's not just "get into multiball and flail away hoping to hit any shot for an equal jackpot".

    Also in Battle for the Kingdom as long as you are in multiball the timers don't expire. Once you go into single ball play then shots are timed. Including the insane ten second shots to the castle gate with the trolls up if you don't have troll bombs. So it is always important to keep two balls in play when you are in wizard mode on MM.

    Monster Bash has special shots in its modes as well. Mosh Pit mode has an add-a-ball feature as well as a Mosh Pit super for hammering away at Frank's ramp (personally never seen it done). Bash rewards you for hitting all of the monsters and then shooting at the center lane to score a super jackpot. Rock encourages hitting each monster once to score Monsters of Rock. Not to mention that multiball modes on MB stop the timers on the regular modes which is often necessary for getting into Monsters of Rock. So if you drag a few modes into Frank or Bash you'll be looking to complete those before you drain into single ball play.

    Once Stern actually completes their codes they are on par with most other modern DMD machines in my opinion. The thing with Stern is...if and when they complete the code. I find it embarrassing that they release games with such unpolished codes. But they still sell out the LE versions pretty early so it's not like it is hurting them (at least in the short term). Hopefully JJP's WOZ machine has incredible code and pushes Stern to improve their approach to coding.

    #97 6 years ago

    I think I know what you may be saying.

    Personally I find the feedback from B/W pins more satisfying as getting a jackpot for example seems like a meaningful event.

    Think TAF, SS, CFTBL, HS2 etc. It has always bugged me that the callouts are not better on some Stern games as it costs no money to do this!

    I notice that Avengers does have Hulk jackpot callouts but zilch on XM.

    #98 6 years ago

    To me it seems that B/W and Stern have a different interpretation of what "easy to understand" is. Several B/W games give you a better direction what to shoot for. On IJ it also helped that artist Doug Watson layed out the inserts and was credited as a designer. Stern's (and this goes back to the DE and Sega days) idea of "easy to understand" seems to have been to give the player multiball as often as possible, with endless ball savers, thinking that that is what the player wants. Some players may want that, but I find it not very satisfying. Especially since it often is not clear how I started a multiball on a Stern game. To quote a designer from Pinball Magazine No. 2: "There is an old saying that still applies today: a game should be easy to understand, but difficult to master." That doesn't mean there should be a wizard mode that is impossible to get, as the 9 year old kid has no clue there is a wizard mode. But again, that's the difference in interpretation of what manufacturers think is "easy to understand". Which way is more fun is another discussion and also depend on personal taste.

    #99 6 years ago

    Your comment that stern pins are not played VS BW . It must be the a local issue. I have 36 pins downstairs, 13, are newer sterns, 2, are late 70 s, the rest are 90 s. Most people around here seem to always choose the Sterns, including me. All have been updated code wise , all completely shopped out with LEDs , so they are visually excellent. I very much enjoy playing each, but newer pins get more play.

    #100 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    You dont want to know. It will make you mad.

    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    Too complex to type, I get it.

    And you accuse other people on this thread of trolling?

    Pot, meet kettle.

    Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
    $ 25.00
    Playfield - Protection
    Pinball Mod Co.
    $ 5,599.00
    Pinball Machine
    Little Shop Of Games
    $ 76.95
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    Super Skill Shot Shop
    From: $ 9.99
    Eproms
    Matt's Basement Arcade
    $ 22.00
    Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 156.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 14.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    ULEKstore
    $ 49.00
    $ 269.00
    Cabinet - Other
    PinGraffix Pinside Shop
    $ 1,099.00
    From: $ 99.99
    Cabinet - Other
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    From: $ 42.00
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    From: $ 119.99
    Lighting - Backbox
    Rock Custom Pinball
    $ 25.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Great American Pinball
    $ 1,200.00
    $ 29.25
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    The MOD Couple
    From: $ 140.00
    $ 30.99
    Lighting - Interactive
    Lee's Parts
    $ 19.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    ULEKstore
    $ 27.99
    $ 12.00
    Cabinet - Other
    Rock Custom Pinball
    There are 310 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 7.

    Hey there! Got a moment?

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside