(Topic ID: 35605)

Stern Pinball, and Why Williams Still Outperforms Them


By PDXGeek

6 years ago



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    #1 6 years ago

    Tonight my son goes into my Pinball room and turns on all the machines and wants to play doubles on something. First he chooses XMEN LE. We play a round and I easily destroy him with the latest FW. I ask him (he is 9 years old btw) what he likes about XMEN and his response is "I like how the characters look." Next he chooses Indiana Jones. Here, he destroys me in a game with a score of 817 million to 315 million. Watching him play I noticed something that Stern just completly lacks.

    In your standard Stern game, all the lights are flashing, and there is no clear direction as to what you should be doing. On a Williams game, there are generally obvious mode start shots, and clear direction on how to lock a ball for multiball. The Williams games are so easy that even a 9 year old boy can figure out what he has to do.

    My son starts by locking all of the balls and starting a multi-ball scenario. Then he locks an additional ball and hears the words "The Jackpot is Double" and he looks at me and says "See Dad, if you lock another ball the jackpot is worth more!" He then shoots the Jackpot shot that is obvious due to its flasher.

    Then he starts a couple of modes, but then jumps back to multi-ball and proceeds to collect two more jackpots. Each time he tries to lock a ball to double the score and celebrates when he makes shots. Something I have never seen him do on a Stern machine. This is when I realized something special about Williams games.

    Stern may go ahead and try to make these complex rule sets, that take forever to complete, while adding a ton of jackpot shots in that aren't really worth anything, to make you feel like you have accomplished something. But, too a 9 year old kid, the simplicity of the rules on an Indiana Jones machine, along with the obviousness of where to shoot next, and the perfect voice overs that tell you whats going on, there is just no comparison.

    Watching my son play tonight made me realize that Williams knew how to manage pro and beginning players perfectly. Stern seems to be stuck in this "Complex Rules" syndrom where every spot you shoot in a multi-ball is a Jackpot. Well guess what, if every shot I make is a jackpot, who cares?! I will take a placed jackpot shot with an obvious combination that a 9 year old can figure out over "every shot counts" any day of the week.

    I have yet to see a Stern game provide the level of opportunity that a near 20 year old machine from Williams can provide. Not only did Williams ship machines that worked out of the box, they also insured that players of all skill levels could have a good time, and made it obvious as to what the next shot should be. This simplicity in design, while offering challenging gameplay to those that are experienced in the trade, is why Williams is the standard in all Pinball comparisons. I really wish Stern would wake up and see that complexity does not equal fun, and that shipping a complete, and working game, is actually worthwhile.

    The future of pinball does not exist in the hearts of the old school players, but in the interest of our young and beginning players. Every machine that Stern releases that ignores this group, is only adding another nail into the coffin of the future of pinball. I thank Williams for still continuing to provide accessability along with fun even 20 years later. I only wish that everyone else was enjoying this hobby as much as my 9 year old son does.

    #2 6 years ago

    New and old-both niiice! // Error: Image 64368 not found // // Error: Image 64379 not found // // Error: Image 64380 not found // Ford-GT_mp8_pic_21988.jpg L-Ford-GT-40-5.jpg

    #3 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    Every machine that Stern releases that ignores this group, is only adding another nail into the coffin of the future of pinball. I thank Williams for still continuing to provide accessability along with fun even 20 years later. I only wish that everyone else was enjoying this hobby as much as my 9 year old son does.

    totally disagree....Look all all the licensed titles Stern produces that appeals to the masses young and old. Recently at the last couple of pinball festivals, I noticed young kids ages 9-12 group and they spend most of their time playing the new Sterns like ACDC, x-men, SM and others. And their were tons of older Bally/williams games there in the room to play, but they spend most of the day on the sterns.

    -4
    #4 6 years ago

    Gotta agree with you completely on this. I find the stern games completely boring and lacking in every way. TSPP is the only one I play. I played an AC/DC LE this weekend, it was a drain monster, it was flashy and neat to look at, but a complete bore to play. Granted this is just my opinion but I will keep and continue to collect my old skool 90s games. Everyone has their favorites and they just dont do it for me.

    #5 6 years ago

    I disagree... mostly. X-Men how it is currently set up is a slew of everything going on and it is hard to know what to do next, but take most of the Stern games that have been out for a long time, and it is just as clear. Of the past 10 or so games, I would argue that only X-Men (and maybe Avengers, haven't played it yet) are not extremely clear in what to do.

    Now, how you go about doing it to earn big scores is a different matter entirely, but that is no different than certain B/W games of the past.

    My two year old understands how to start multiball on Iron Man.

    #6 6 years ago

    I had a chance to throwdown on a Tron LE. That game is sick!

    #7 6 years ago

    Disagree. Sterns seem pretty good at having the shots lit up and calling out jackpots.

    #8 6 years ago

    Some of the newer Sterns are a bit confusing for me. IM seems easier to understand than most. SM is a close second & both are hella fun. I'm not one to read rule cards...

    #9 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    In your standard Stern game, all the lights are flashing, and there is no clear direction as to what you should be doing...

    really?
    did you tried LOTR lately? and x-men's code is not completly done yet!

    some like easy games, i like hard games and i'm cool with that!

    #10 6 years ago

    The games that continually tell you what to shoot can start to sound grating after many plays (in home use). Yes, they help folks that don't know where to shoot initially, but I prefer games that don't over-do this. And not all Williams game did this....games like BSD, WH20, TZ, FT, etc. can be confusing for newbs just like SOME of the Sterns.

    I think Stern is striking a good balance lately of having an easy task for beginners to accomplish (say Wolverine multiball on Xmen) with deeper rules for the players. Most of their latest games also have balanced scoring with no easily exploitable single aspect of the gameplay. Oh and no boring video modes.

    #11 6 years ago

    I hear what all of you are saying, and I have played all the Stern games. I enjoy some of them quite a bit, but only as a seasoned pinball player. Look at these games from the point of a new player. When I start most new Stern games, every single shot light is flashing. This is confusing. Compare this to say ST:TNG, TZ, IJ, or hell, any Williams game, that has only a couple lights going so that you can focus on whats important.

    Just because you open every single shot in the beginning of the game doesnt mean it makes sense, in fact, it does the opposite. Seeing all of this through the eyes of a starting pinball player really puts this in perspective. The next time you play a Stern game, put your bias aside and really think about "What would I do if I have never played a pinball before." I think you will then understand what I am describing.

    #12 6 years ago

    I've never heard TZ described as easy to understand. Love it, great game, but not easy for newbs to get.

    #13 6 years ago

    I have WPT, TSPP, LOTR, and SM Stern games and have no trouble understanding the basic rules of what to shoot for. The longer I own them, the more I understand the rules. They are just as much fun to me as the B/W games I've had. My kids really dig TSPP. Oh, and if I had FG I would be my son's hero.

    Sure, Stern has some games I think are no fun but so does B/W.

    Not sure anyone in my family enjoyed BSD like I did - scared the shart out of my kids when they were little.

    Gotta admit, my newer Sterns have fewer breakages than the older B/W games I've had.

    #14 6 years ago

    NathanP - I think I saw you playing that ACDC... I am just guessing, but there was one guy who was complaining about how much a drain monster it was, so perhaps that was you at Chad's.
    Sorry you did not enjoy the game.

    Just for a different opinion of the same game - I absolutely loved it! Yes it could be drain monster if you let it. You had to make your shots count every time and nudge when you did not. That makes it fun and challenging for some people. I will guess you do not like STTNG either which is also a serious drain monster if you let it have its way.

    I have never seen or played an ACDC before that night, but I thought it clearly identified which shots to shoot at. The red music notes lighting up on different ramps and loops for example. And the call out clues to shoot the juke box. It felt just like a 90s Williams game to me.

    #15 6 years ago
    Quoted from extraballingtmc:

    Disagree. Sterns seem pretty good at having the shots lit up and calling out jackpots.

    Agreed, they have ALL the shots lit up and every shot is a jackpot. Thats the problem. Everything is devalued. In IJ for instance, you have a clear path to lock a ball, then once you lock it, you realize you should keep doing this to start multi-ball. Once multiball starts, there is a single jackpot shot that awards you greatly instead of every single shot being a jackpot that awards minimal points.

    #16 6 years ago
    Quoted from DrJoe:

    I've never heard TZ described as easy to understand. Love it, great game, but not easy for newbs to get.

    Agreed, TZ is a real pain to understand, and to be honest, I hated that game for quite awhile. It is definitely not new player friendly.

    #17 6 years ago
    Quoted from DrJoe:

    The games that continually tell you what to shoot can start to sound grating after many plays (in home use).

    What would be nice would be to have an optional tutorial mode. During this, desirable shots would be really obvious and you might get voice assistance as well. Once you get it, simply select "no" when asked before starting a game.

    #18 6 years ago
    Quoted from perryd:

    totally disagree....Look all all the licensed titles Stern produces that appeals to the masses young and old. Recently at the last couple of pinball festivals, I noticed young kids ages 9-12 group and they spend most of their time playing the new Sterns like ACDC, x-men, SM and others. And their were tons of older Bally/williams games there in the room to play, but they spend most of the day on the sterns.

    I go to two Pinball festivals every year (ok last year I missed one) and the Stern games are all but ignored. Relevence to the times is definitely a heavy factor (Tron was quite popular when the movie was released) but over time, if you look at things from a true new player perspective, I believe you will better understand what I am saying. I don't care about the players that are looking for some new pizazz, I am looking for the smart player that wants to understand why hitting mode start does something new.

    #19 6 years ago
    Quoted from RacerRik:

    Just for a different opinion of the same game - I absolutely loved it! Yes it could be drain monster if you let it.

    Yes - playing ACDC is like living on the edge. Every shot is risky. Every time you have to ask if it is worth the risk. My first impression on ACDC was indeed negative. It was a drain monster for me. But it grows on you after a while and becomes very addictive!

    #20 6 years ago
    Quoted from chill:

    Gotta admit, my newer Sterns have fewer breakages than the older B/W games I've had.

    Give them 20 years.

    Oh wait, that's right....a lot of them are not getting routed either.

    #21 6 years ago

    Haha, Rick, nice to meet you here. That was me. It was such a beautiful game, i just don't like having to nudge a game to play it. STTNG does nothing for me either. I enjoyed all the games, that one just had me a bit frustrated with how it loved to drop the outlane on me. The stern games just feel different to me. Maybe its just me. AC/DC is definitely fast for sure. With AC/DC it was almost as if I only got to shoot the ball every fifteen seconds or so. The ball would bounce around so much on the slingshots and off the side drop targets and bounce around the invisible outlanes. It just frustated me, I felt like I only got one shot. It was weird. Maybe I will grow to like it someday, but it sure did frustrate me to no end.

    #22 6 years ago
    Quoted from jlm33:

    What would be nice would be to have an optional tutorial mode. During this, desirable shots would be really obvious and you might get voice assistance as well. Once you get it, simply select "no" when asked before starting a game.

    Stern tried this with the "Shoot here and here" dialogue that started with T3. Instead of thinking about what they should add, think about what they should remove. Its obvious to a 9 year old boy what to do on an IJ but not on an XMEN. That is the real story. We dont need someone tellling us what to do. We need better designed pinball machines with SOFTWARE that matches that design. I still believe XMEN can be great, but the current software is some of the worst I have seen.

    #23 6 years ago

    I bought a TZ and a MM and put them in the corner of my room so they can sit and watch me play my BBH.

    #24 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    Not only did Williams ship machines that worked out of the box, they also insured that players of all skill levels could have a good time, and made it obvious as to what the next shot should be.

    Buy a lot of NIB Williams have you? I've heard tell they needed more tweaking than a Stern out of the box.

    Anyway...I couldn't agree more about X-Men's current code, but I also know that in all of Stern's games you couldn't have picked a bigger wreck of a game to use as an example as X-Men is with it's current crap for code. Go back to 1.22 and you wouldn't have had as much of an argument here. I'll pick X-Men 1.22 over Twilight Zone any day on simplicity of understanding what to shoot for.

    I will also agree X-Men lacks in the audio instruction. After playing Avengers this weekend, I am even more disappointing with the X-Men's refusal to say anything pinball related. You see....I'm a grown up...I know I'm playing a pinball machine. I don't care if Magneto wouldn't say JACKPOT "in real life"! I want him (or someone) to say JACKPOT when I hit a jackpot. It's not going to take me out of the make believe pinball battle that I am in with him...it will just excite me a bit to know I have done good and got a jackpot.

    Some games are complicated and some aren't. Some do a good job of guiding you along and others don't. I don't think it has to do with brands as much as it does with the steady rise of games rules being a bit deeper. It just so happens that one of the companies in question hasn't made games in 10+ years.

    #25 6 years ago

    Could explain why I like Tron...it's got things mixed up a bit with "all jackpots" in Disc, "targeted jackpots" in Quorra, and "Combo jackpots" in lightcycle!

    TRON IS A WILLIAMS!

    #26 6 years ago

    What is amazing to me is that Williams still exists as a company, just out of the pinball business. They must know the following that exists for their 90's games, and yet they do not jump back in and compete with Stern. Anybody know why? Make MM2, etc. I am sure it boils down to dollars.

    #27 6 years ago
    Quoted from DrJoe:

    The games that continually tell you what to shoot can start to sound grating after many plays

    I like it when Dredd says "go for the hundred million"

    #28 6 years ago

    Hmm taking say the xmen vs Indy example I don't see the problem.

    First on xmen, not everything is just flashing. There are lit shots that are currently available. When no modes are running, that includes all shots. So what to shoot at? Everything. It's no different than how attack from mars might look. Every single lane is lit. When you start a mode, then everything shuts off and only a couple things are lit.

    What surprises me most is that your son beat you on Indy

    As for the mode start shots, some games have modes that start via a shot (Tz, sttng, shadow, lotr, xmen villain mode) and shot based modes without a mode start. Shot based mode games have no mode start and instead modes start after a number of shots to various locations. Examples are monster bash, cactus canyon, Congo, tron, xmen heroes modes. I agree most stern games follow the shot modes rather than the start location modes but it's not cut and dry Williams vs stern. Monster bash, for example, should be every bit the flashing cluster f*** as xmen since every shot is always open to shoot at just the same

    #29 6 years ago
    Quoted from GoChiefs70:

    What is amazing to me is that Williams still exists as a company, just out of the pinball business. They must know the following that exists for their 90's games, and yet they do not jump back in and compete with Stern. Anybody know why? Make MM2, etc. I am sure it boils down to dollars.

    The profit to be made manufacturing pinball machines pales in comparison to the profit being made manufacturing gambling machines.

    Plain and simple.

    Marcus

    #30 6 years ago

    NathanP - Great time at Chad's house!!!! I stayed until 3:00 playing that ACDC after the crowd thinned out. Got my initials there several times which was the most confusing part of the game for me. Aparently, it saves high scores for each of the 12 songs, depending on the song you start with. And each song has different award shots and goals. It took me forever to figure out how to get to the Hell under playfield. Other people seemed to get it easily and I played and played and never could get it. Turns out I was not starting songs with Hell in the title so I did not get to play in hell - pretty funny really.

    I understand not liking to nudge a game, I was that way for a long time. My thought was that was why they had tilts and plumb bobs to prevent you from nudging the game.

    Only later did I realize that nudging is a critical part of mastering the game of pinball. Tilts mechs are to prevent abuse and force you to finesse your nudges. Even easy games like Indy can be so much better with the right nudge (Narrow Escape is a perfect example - if you do it right you can almost always make the Narrow Escape).

    ACDC was fast and furious and punished you if made mistakes. One of my favorite games is No Fear (which certainly gets not much love here) but it is similar to ACDC in that it will force you to become a better player if you want to enjoy and master the game.

    My point is that everyone has different likes and dislikes for games. But I don't feel like the Sterns are any worse than 90s Williams games in general in terms of presenting specific goals for the player. WIth IJ as an example, some modes are very specific for the award shot, other like Monkey Brains are not. And when you get to Eternal Life Multiball, every shot is lit.

    #31 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    Not only did Williams ship machines that worked out of the box,

    Ha Ha Ha.

    Wanna bet on that one ?

    Stern pinball machines out of the box for me ( ending with BDK, I can't speak first hand for the models after that ) was far better than Williams.

    And Stern has their tech support beat too. ( in comparison then and now, I know you can't get tech support from Williams any longer )

    And Stern has made some really great games like TSPP, LOTR, and SM, during the worst market ever for pinball. Williams has it's share of lemons during a time when things were much better.

    LTG : )

    #32 6 years ago
    Quoted from GoChiefs70:

    What is amazing to me is that Williams still exists as a company, just out of the pinball business. They must know the following that exists for their 90's games, and yet they do not jump back in and compete with Stern. Anybody know why? Make MM2, etc. I am sure it boils down to dollars.

    Lets see. They closed the pinball division, Williams/Atari, Williams/Midway, Touch Screen division, etc. etc.

    And times were better in coin op for all those and were dumped to make slot machines.

    Nothing amazing about it. It would cost a fortune to start up the pinball part again and lose a lot of money with mediocre sales and face the wrath of the stock holders.

    And no sense looking back when you are making a lot of money on something else.

    LTG : )

    #33 6 years ago
    Quoted from chill:

    I have WPT, TSPP, LOTR, and SM Stern games and have no trouble understanding the basic rules of what to shoot for. The longer I own them, the more I understand the rules. They are just as much fun to me as the B/W games I've had. My kids really dig TSPP. Oh, and if I had FG I would be my son's hero.
    Sure, Stern has some games I think are no fun but so does B/W.
    Not sure anyone in my family enjoyed BSD like I did - scared the shart out of my kids when they were little.
    Gotta admit, my newer Sterns have fewer breakages than the older B/W games I've had.

    Exactly, the longer you own them the better you understand what you have to do. Imagine if that was obvious the first time you hit the "launch" button or pulled back the plunger. My son evaluates this before every game. On the Williams games (FT, CV, AFM etc) this is obvious. He knows what he has to do to start something. That is all I am saying. I am not saying X game plays better then Y game. Simply that B/W games were more approachable.

    #34 6 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    Could explain why I like Tron...it's got things mixed up a bit with "all jackpots" in Disc, "targeted jackpots" in Quorra, and "Combo jackpots" in lightcycle!
    TRON IS A WILLIAMS!

    I can't explain because what you are asking is an emotional thing, not a data driven thing.

    #35 6 years ago
    Quoted from DrJoe:

    The games that continually tell you what to shoot can start to sound grating after many plays (in home use). Yes, they help folks that don't know where to shoot initially, but I prefer games that don't over-do this. And not all Williams game did this....games like BSD, WH20, TZ, FT, etc. can be confusing for newbs just like SOME of the Sterns.
    I think Stern is striking a good balance lately of having an easy task for beginners to accomplish (say Wolverine multiball on Xmen) with deeper rules for the players. Most of their latest games also have balanced scoring with no easily exploitable single aspect of the gameplay. Oh and no boring video modes.

    B/W Games didnt tell you where to shoot. They too the simple approach and made it obvious by only flashing that one light. Everyone said "Hell, I should shoot that flashing light!" Compare that too XMEN where on ball one every single thing is flashing. What the hell should I do?! I dunno, just whack the flippers till something starts.

    #36 6 years ago
    Quoted from DugFreez:

    Buy a lot of NIB Williams have you? I've heard tell they needed more tweaking than a Stern out of the box.
    Anyway...I couldn't agree more about X-Men's current code, but I also know that in all of Stern's games you couldn't have picked a bigger wreck of a game to use as an example as X-Men is with it's current crap for code. Go back to 1.22 and you wouldn't have had as much of an argument here. I'll pick X-Men 1.22 over Twilight Zone any day on simplicity of understanding what to shoot for.
    I will also agree X-Men lacks in the audio instruction. After playing Avengers this weekend, I am even more disappointing with the X-Men's refusal to say anything pinball related. You see....I'm a grown up...I know I'm playing a pinball machine. I don't care if Magneto wouldn't say JACKPOT "in real life"! I want him (or someone) to say JACKPOT when I hit a jackpot. It's not going to take me out of the make believe pinball battle that I am in with him...it will just excite me a bit to know I have done good and got a jackpot.
    Some games are complicated and some aren't. Some do a good job of guiding you along and others don't. I don't think it has to do with brands as much as it does with the steady rise of games rules being a bit deeper. It just so happens that one of the companies in question hasn't made games in 10+ years.

    I agree with most of your analysis here. XMEN is unusually horrible, and Avengers is a lot more enjoyable. However, think about this in terms of someone who has never played pinball and think about what is the obvious next shot. Doing so will help you see what I am referring too.

    #37 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    When I start most new Stern games, every single shot light is flashing.

    This is just false. The entire premise of this thread is false. I wonder how much experience you have on other Stern games besides X-Men. If something is flashing - it MEANS something...just like any WMS game. I turn on Monster Bash - every shot is flashing...and it makes sense. I know I have to shoot the Wolfman 4 times, the Drac targets, Frank, etc.

    Sterns games are generally designed and programmed by the same people who made the WMS games. For better or worse, they're generally similar experiences.

    In the case of X-Men, the game clearly has software issues, but if you can't figure out what to do - that's on you (and your son lol). Shoot lit character shots, start their modes. Shoot the big green LOCK inserts, lock the ball for Magneto Multiball. Shoot the scoop when Villain is lit...hmmm, what could that do - oh, I dunno, start a VILLAIN MODE!??!! Wolverine's Multiball - some shots are lit, shoot them and he turns a corner and confronts a guard - then, only Wolverine is lit, so - shoot him, kill the guard (Jackpot).

    #38 6 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    In the case of X-Men, the game clearly has software issues, but if you can't figure out what to do - that's on you (and your son lol). Shoot lit character shots, start their modes. Shoot the big green LOCK inserts, lock the ball for Magneto Multiball. Shoot the scoop when Villain is lit...hmmm, what could that do - oh, I dunno, start a VILLAIN MODE!??!! Wolverine's Multiball - some shots are lit, shoot them and he turns a corner and confronts a guard - then, only Wolverine is lit, so - shoot him, kill the guard (Jackpot).

    If the OP has it set on normal settings, then it is a cluster mess and ever mode is stacked within a minute with late call outs, etc... Never saw in the post that he changed the mode start to hard.

    X-men is a terrible example of Stern code, especially with the newest code on normal settings.

    Now, having said that, I think most of Stern games are just as easy as B/W games to learn. Look at TZ or Safe Craker as examples of B/W games that the average person just doesn't walk up to and get.

    #39 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    B/W Games didnt tell you where to shoot. They too the simple approach and made it obvious by only flashing that one light.

    MM, MB and AFM start with everything lit, and it takes a certain number of shots to accomplish whatever you're trying to start. NBAFB has everything lit too, and it's extremely baffling for a new player. Watch a new player try to understand it or JD and see how completely lost they are.

    And your comment about B/W games working better is just flat wrong. B/W games out of the box needed considerable tweaking. Stern games for the most part do not.

    Look, it's great if *you* like B/W games and want to bash Stern for making X-Men not the way that you want it right now, but if you compare just about any other Stern game to random B/W games, you'll find that your argument completely falls apart.

    A new player wants a few big goals where there are rewards for accomplishing it, but if that is all that a game was, why not take out the modes or the Path of Adventure on IJ? It doesn't lead to the singular goal of just starting modes.

    I wouldn't claim either company as a whole is better or worse at this. Certain games are better for each company than others. Don't believe me, find an NBAFB and watch people try to figure out what they are doing on it. And for the record, I love that game.

    #40 6 years ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    Ha Ha Ha.
    Wanna bet on that one ?
    Stern pinball machines out of the box for me ( ending with BDK, I can't speak first hand for the models after that ) was far better than Williams.
    And Stern has their tech support beat too. ( in comparison then and now, I know you can't get tech support from Williams any longer )
    And Stern has made some really great games like TSPP, LOTR, and SM, during the worst market ever for pinball. Williams has it's share of lemons during a time when things were much better.
    LTG : )

    I got great support for my 90s games when they [Bally / Williams] were still in business. Timely and free updates to the ball stuck scenarios along with timely software upgrades. Apparently your experience differed.

    #41 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    Stern may go ahead and try to make these complex rule sets, that take forever to complete, while adding a ton of jackpot shots in that aren't really worth anything, to make you feel like you have accomplished something. But, too a 9 year old kid, the simplicity of the rules on an Indiana Jones machine, along with the obviousness of where to shoot next, and the perfect voice overs that tell you whats going on, there is just no comparison.

    Couldnt agree more.. making a complex ruleset for the home market sure.... but that aint going to last forever. ACDC is clever, but far far too hard for the newcomer..

    #42 6 years ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    Ha Ha Ha.
    Wanna bet on that one ?
    Stern pinball machines out of the box for me ( ending with BDK, I can't speak first hand for the models after that ) was far better than Williams.
    And Stern has their tech support beat too. ( in comparison then and now, I know you can't get tech support from Williams any longer )
    And Stern has made some really great games like TSPP, LOTR, and SM, during the worst market ever for pinball. Williams has it's share of lemons during a time when things were much better.
    LTG : )

    I dont care about the perspective of an OP, I care about the perspective of a new player. I appreciate your time with being an OP, but the OP side of things vs the new player side of things are different.

    #43 6 years ago

    One of the biggest gripes about the big three mm, mb, and AFM is that every lane is a jackpot in multiball.

    #44 6 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    This is just false. The entire premise of this thread is false. I wonder how much experience you have on other Stern games besides X-Men. If something is flashing - it MEANS something...just like any WMS game. I turn on Monster Bash - every shot is flashing...and it makes sense. I know I have to shoot the Wolfman 4 times, the Drac targets, Frank, etc.
    Sterns games are generally designed and programmed by the same people who made the WMS games. For better or worse, they're generally similar experiences.
    In the case of X-Men, the game clearly has software issues, but if you can't figure out what to do - that's on you (and your son lol). Shoot lit character shots, start their modes. Shoot the big green LOCK inserts, lock the ball for Magneto Multiball. Shoot the scoop when Villain is lit...hmmm, what could that do - oh, I dunno, start a VILLAIN MODE!??!! Wolverine's Multiball - some shots are lit, shoot them and he turns a corner and confronts a guard - then, only Wolverine is lit, so - shoot him, kill the guard (Jackpot).

    I understand what you are saying, however I have had experience in ALL of the Stern games. In fact, I have spent considerable time with Stern and Steve Ritchie over dinner and drinks. I see you pointed out one game that is an exception to the rule. Good for you, that doesn't change the real data I have experienced over the last 25 years. I did not make this post as an anti-stern, simply a post of where I have seen pinball progress now versus the past. To think that just because I dont post whore, doesnt devalue my experience.

    #45 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    I understand what you are saying, however I have had experience in ALL of the Stern games. In fact, I have spent considerable time with Stern and Steve Ritchie over dinner and drinks. I see you pointed out one game that is an exception to the rule. Good for you, that doesn't change the real data I have experienced over the last 25 years. I did not make this post as an anti-stern, simply a post of where I have seen pinball progress now versus the past. To think that just because I dont post whore, doesnt devalue my experience.

    Fantastic...but you're wrong. Anything that's lit at any time in a B/W or Stern game serves a similar purpose - to point out what you're supposed to shoot. Shoot the lit shot, something happens. X-Men has f*cked up code currently, but still - shoot the lit shot, SOMETHING HAPPENS. It's no different than B/W games.

    Sincerely,
    Post Whore

    #46 6 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    This is just false. The entire premise of this thread is false.

    I am not asking you to agree with me. Just giving you factual evidence along with years of play time. Maybe your 9 year old launches any Stern game and just knows what to do.

    #47 6 years ago

    Does anyone want me to lose the cars on this post?

    -2
    #48 6 years ago
    Quoted from PDXGeek:

    I am not asking you to agree with me. Just giving you factual evidence along with years of play time. Maybe your 9 year old launches any Stern game and just knows what to do.

    I don't know anyone who launches into ANY game and knows what to do. That doesn't change the fact that "shoot lit shot does something". In the case of X-Men, shoot character = start character mode. How is this confusing? I dunno, I figured this out pretty quickly - and I STILL don't know wtf is happening in TZ after playing it 100 times

    #49 6 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Fantastic...but you're wrong. Anything that's lit at any time in a B/W or Stern game serves a similar purpose - to point out what you're supposed to shoot. Shoot the lit shot, something happens. X-Men has f*cked up code currently, but still - shoot the lit shot, SOMETHING HAPPENS. It's no different than B/W games.
    Sincerely,
    Post Whore

    haha I see your troll and raise you a post with data. Agreed, a lit shot has value, but a single lit shot has more value then everything being lit. You have missed the point of the post. Using your logic I could state that hitting any target in a machine is an arguement that its great.

    -1
    #50 6 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    I don't know anyone who launches into ANY game and knows what to do. That doesn't change the fact that "shoot lit shot does something". In the case of X-Men, shoot character = start character mode. How is this confusing? I dunno, I figured this out pretty quickly - and I STILL don't know wtf is happening in TZ after playing it 100 times

    Cool, I guess the mode starts of the Piano and Slot Machine are too confusing for you. You know, the shots that when you make them stop the ball for several seconds while telling you whats next. Where as making a shot in XMEN, ACDC, TRON, SPIDERMAN, while all making progress, do nothing until you have made the shot multiple times. Or how about IJ, where hitting mode start actually starts a mode and gives you goals?

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