(Topic ID: 141283)

Stern NIB playfield quality??

By MT45

8 years ago


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  • 174 posts
  • 60 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 years ago by ledge
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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24
#29 8 years ago
Quoted from nate1981s:

why was this playfield not rejected?

Because there is nothing wrong with it.

Wood is hydroscopic, so it absorbs water, swells and shrinks.

Even out of the exact same tree, different pieces of wood will shrink and swell differently.

That wood was completely flat when the playfield was manufactured, or else there is no way the ink would have covered the surface when it was pressed through the silkscreen. That is why playfields are dimpled AFTER they are printed, otherwise every dimple would result in an 1/8" circle of unprinted wood.

Playfields are sanded on a giant belt sander to make them totally flat with the installed inserts. The wood is sealed and sanded once more to make sure they are 100% flat.

Then they are silkscreened.

-

Now, a year or so after being manufactured, the humidity has changed and the wood has shrank.

Totally normal.

Once the playfield gets compressed with 1,000,000,000 dimples in it, it will appear to be totally flat again - just like your 30 year old B/W games.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/playfield-dimple-reality-check

#31 8 years ago
Quoted from MT45:

BTW, for what it's worth, I've got a 75th Ruby Red WOZ and it's play field looks beautiful and totally flat

Let me play it for a month and it will look just like mine.

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22
#44 8 years ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

If it is, they're putting less clear on it for Stern

No.

There is way more clear on a modern Stern than there ever was on B/W.

I have lots of NOS Classic Stern, B/W, and Gottlieb playfields in my shop for comparison.

Quoted from PinMonk:

And the wood is not cured as long or something

I measure the same 7 to 9% moisture content on my meter for brand new Sterns as 20 year old B/W playfields. The wood is fully dry and not "green" in any way.

Quoted from PinMonk:

I've never seen out of the box "grain" in the clear on Williams/Bally machines

I have, many times.

-

STOP ROMANTICIZING ABOUT SOME BLISSFUL PAST THAT NEVER WAS.

#46 8 years ago
Quoted from MT45:

No matter the reason, I'm still not happy about it. Not by a long shot. $7,500 should get you a nearly perfect playfield.

No such thing as a "perfect playfield".

Even if I put 3 coats of clear on it and sand it completely flat, it will continue to shrink and swell as the temperature and humidity in your house is different than in my shop (and different than in CCCs shop).

It will get millions of dimples, because steel is harder than 3 layers of clearcoat, and steel is harder than the maple beneath the 3 layers of clearcoat.

Play the game until all the wood fibers are completely compressed, or sell it and buy a 30 year old game that is already fully compressed.

#53 8 years ago
Quoted from ledge:

true. but i think Sterns clear "process" is not up to sufficient standard.

Again, that graining is NOT in the clearcoat.

That graining is because the humidity has changed and the wood fibers have shrank.

#60 8 years ago
Quoted from Baiter:

I don't doubt wood fibers are shrinking and expanding as the playfield dries out, but I wouldn't expect it to happen in perfectly spaced ridges down the entire length of the playfield.

That is EXACTLY how God created the wood.

wood-grain.jpgwood-grain.jpg

#61 8 years ago
Quoted from robotronjohn:

I have been told that Stern has a LOT of problems with their vendor.

Stern's vendor is CCC, the same company that did the Bally, Williams, Gottlieb, Classic Stern, Chicago Coin playfields in the last century.....they have been in business for over 100 years.

Take the tour sometime, quality is better nowadays than it ever was.

#65 8 years ago
Quoted from Sborel:

Hey Vid are you saying clearcoat doesn't shrink?

No, who said anything like that???

Clearcoat has to stay flexible in order to stay stuck to the shrinking/expanding wood and the ball dimples.

If clearcoat could not flex, it would chip right off every time your wife bangs her door into your car.

#69 8 years ago

Same thing happens to cars where the primer layer does not adhere properly.

Whole production runs have to be repainted.

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#70 8 years ago

And you will have problems where the clearcoat was not properly UV stabilized.

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#75 8 years ago
Quoted from ledge:

and using the same quality clear as always? or as before.

The clear is better nowadays than in the last century.

Look at those old B/W playfield inserts and see how cloudy the DiamonPlate was.

#102 8 years ago

Here we have a new reproduction CPR Space Shuttle playfield.

About 3 years ago I restored a dozen of these machines when reproduction playfields became available.

This game is owned by the father of an actual NASA Shuttle astronaut.

The playfield had CPR's normal 2 coats of clear, plus it got 2 coats of clear from my shop (This one got actual DiamondPlate clearcoating, you can tell by the slightly cloudy inserts).

The playfields were sanded dead flat, and then were brought up to a mirror finish.

3 years latter, this game has only 52 plays in the audits. It sits in the client's basement and seldom gets used.

If you look closely, you can see that the wavy grain of the underlying wood has become visible in the high polish of the playfield.

Why?

1. The wood has taken up additional moisture while being stored in the client's basement.

2. No one ever plays the game, so the wood fibers have never been compressed flat.

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#103 8 years ago

Here, on the same playfield, you can see that over the plastic inserts, there is no shrinkage, so the clearcoat maintains it's flatness.

3 years ago, the entire playfield was flat as glass, before the wood shrank.

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#104 8 years ago
Quoted from Baiter:

If it is wood graining, then the issue is the playfield manufacturer did not properly sand the playfield down

No.

You could not silkscreen a playfield that had all those ridges in it.

That playfield, when manufactured, was completely flat.

Quoted from Baiter:

that the wood was simply sub-par quality for the purpose.

There is nothing wrong with that wood.

The only thing wrong with it is that no one is playing it enough to smash down all the wood fibers into a flat field.

#115 8 years ago
Quoted from DocRotCod:

Wow.. no way for ANYONE to keep defending Stern at this point. That's the worst call Gary could have made. And says volumes of Stern's ethics.

Hopefully you guys have been in the hobby long enough to know that EVERY game is actually play tested before it is shipped from the Stern factory.

If you ever come to Chi Town, make sure you call for a tour.

If it takes 30 minutes to adjust all the features, or find some stubborn intermittent problem, then that's hundreds of balls that traveled over that unwaxed playfield.

Of course if Stern did not test each game before shipping, then it would take you 4 hours of frustration to find and fix what the Stern tech could fix in 15. And you would spend a week of your time crying about it on Pinside.

You need to wax your game before you put it into service, and when you wax it, all those little abrasions will be gone.

Once you put 1,000,000,000 little scratches of your own on the game, they even make a product called Novus2 that will not only remove those scratches, but polish your playfield like a mirror.

#118 8 years ago
Quoted from QuarterGrabber:

Yes all the Interflip games from Spain, like Dragon (BAO!), have full plastic playfields and the play nice and super fast!

Some Bally games like Electra or even games from this century like New Canasta have the same full plastic playfield overlay.

#122 8 years ago
Quoted from MT45:

I sure wish (again, as others have said) there was some visibility to its condition before you buy/open a NIB game.

Maybe like a package of bacon, they need to make a window in the box?

#126 8 years ago
Quoted from Off2War:

Novus 2 and all those other little magical wax products out there did not remove or make a difference to any of those scratches on the playfield..

Obviously, I did not see your playfield in person, but your pictures sure make it look like any other NIB game with standard game test scratches.

I'll bet it did not take your distributor more than 10 minutes to buff out that game to a mirror shine and sell it to the next, very happy, owner.....

#130 8 years ago
Quoted from MustangPaul:

??? My NIB Mustang Pro didn't have that.

Maybe your game passed all the diagnostics and did not require extensive play testing.

Nothing wrong with that.

#131 8 years ago
Quoted from mcluvin:

If all it takes is 10 minutes of buffing to fix that, why not ensure it is done before the pin goes out the door?

It's a piece of commercial coinop vending equipment, not a jewelry box for a queen.

When you buy your new Ford F450 commercial duty truck, it comes with standard, orange-peel paint, and a few fine abrasions here and there. If you want a show car rub out, you are on your own.

Quoted from mcluvin:

if you don't have any serious competition, maybe you don't have to?

Stern has NO competition.

There are a couple of boutique manufacturers that put out one game every 5 years, but when I go down to my distributor, the only games in stock that I can leave with are Stern.

#133 8 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

7K is approaching a queen's jewelry box.

Don't buy it.

A NIB pinball machine is a piece of expensive commercial coinop equipment (and for some an expensive toy for the wealthy).

If you are AT ALL concerned about the price, or if you don't have all your credit cards paid down to zero - seriously, don't buy it.

#139 8 years ago
Quoted from mcluvin:

So is removing those scratches a 10 minute buff or a show car rub out?

Sometimes I rub one out in my show car.

#140 8 years ago
Quoted from woz:

Bacon packs are designed to only show you the edge of the bacon and hide the big honking wads of fat.

I see you don't buy the bacon in your household.

On premium bacon, there is a little window flap that you open on the back of the package that shows you a "representative slice" of bacon.

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#145 8 years ago
Quoted from Off2War:

it actually got back to me that the distributor did not want to take the machine back into their possession as they "wouldnt be able to sell it"

The distributor did not want the game back because they already made the sale, lol. Do you really think the game is sitting in their back room all folded up, unsaleable?

-

Stop buying NIB games. Your expectations are too high for a piece of commercial coinop equipment; regardless of the price.

Learn how to properly buff out scratches and do routine maintenance on a $1k machine.

There are 6,931 pinball titles in the world right now to choose from. You can probably get 3-4 of most titles for your $10k.

#146 8 years ago
Quoted from woz:

Maybe the bacon windows are bigger and better in the US

Maybe.

And don't try to pawn off your "Canadian Bacon" on us Yankees. Around here, we just call that stuff ham.....

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#148 8 years ago
Quoted from Gorgar1:

What do you call ham?

Canadian Bacon

#152 8 years ago
Quoted from Baiter:

The expectation of condition is "new" not "used".

Every pinball machine from Stern is used.

They play each one, you will see it if you ever go for the tour.

-

I bought a Russian side car motorcycle "new" and it had 19km on the odometer upon opening the crates.

Am I going to pout and cry about it?

Hell no.

I'd way rather the mechanics at the factory ride it around until it's fixed properly, than to have them ship it to me with some problem that would take me forever to diagnose and fix.

If it took THEM 10 miles of dicking around with it to fix it, how long would it have taken me???

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#153 8 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

If a lot of play will minimize the appearance of these lines, is it axiomatic that newer Sterns with highly visible lines have probably been played infrequently? I recently didn't make an offer on a BDK because the play field lines were REALLY pronounced...and it did bother me a little because the seller was asking top $. Maybe I shoulda bought the game under the pre-text that the lines meant less evening of the surface area meaning the game was hardly ever played?

Yes, probably played VERY infrequently.

You can always pull up a plastic and see if the dimples have pounded the playfield flat or not.

uncompressed.jpguncompressed.jpg

#157 8 years ago
Quoted from Off2War:

But let me ask you this, in the 19kms that your bike was tested was it delivered to you with scratches all over the paintwork form the 19kms then bike had travelled?

There were a few scratches and some dirt under the fenders.

I planned on painting the bike Soviet Red with gold trim, but after a while I decided that the black semi gloss was good enough.

Quoted from Off2War:

and also hitting up the dealer as to why your new bike which has only travelled 19kms looks the way it does with so little use.

Dealer??? I bought it still packed in it's wooden crates.

You put the engine back in it, put the battery in it, and then attach the side car. That way you register it with the State as a "kit", because there is no way that this hunk of Soviet era iron is going to pass an American emission test, lol.

You can drop the sidecar at any time if you just want to ride the bike.

You can't ride your Harley in the snow, but a 2 wheel drive Dnepr is right at home in snow or mud.

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#169 8 years ago
Quoted from MustangPaul:

Oh come on vid, if my $4700 Pro can come looking like a polished show car from the factory why can't his 8k game be in at least the same condition. Something went on in the factory.

Satan: (leans in and whispers in Paul's ear) What if his dealer carefully took the game out of the box, played it for an entire week and then returned it to the box with hotglue and staples?

Paul: Dealers are nice people, they would not do something like that......wait.....that sounds like something YOU would do!

Satan: The best part is; you will never know who play-tested the game. Stern, the dealer, or....ME!

Paul: (gasps)

Satan: Baahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

#171 8 years ago
Quoted from swampfire:

It would make no sense for Stern to do play-testing, beyond a burn-in cycle with no balls in the game.

It does not make sense, but Stern does test every switch and mech.

Here is a video if you have never been to the factory and seen the production line.

#173 8 years ago

LOL, anything is possible..........

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