I see ghosting all the time on many games.

CV, ToTAN, IJ, TAF, TZ, HS2, GI, AFM, MB, Shadow, you name it. If it has clearcoat on it, i've probably seen a playfield or 2 that had ghosting somewhere. It's inevitable. It can happen, anywhere, any time, any manufacturer. The problem is, that inserts are shifting way earlier than expected (on these new sterns), which is causing the ghosting. it's either from the CAD cutouts of the playfield, not being tight enough for the insert. Or too tight. Or crappy glue allowing shifting. Or the insert is a plastic that is shrinking at a massively fast rate. System 11's have a bad problem with the plastic used in the inserts, reacting with the lacquer and creating air pocket bubbles in the plastic of the insert. Which when clearcoated. makes them really stand out. So many factors can create these problems, and you won't know right away. Very hard issue to track down.

if you want a pinball company to step up their game and release a better product, and reduce prices. You HAVE to stop buying. It's the only way you will be heard.

with ghosting, there isn't really anything you can do. When I restore fields, I try to get the clear to seep back down in there , but there is no way to know if it will come back or not. I have about an 80% success ratio for getting them to seal back up. But the slightest shift, and BOOM!....it's back.

can't be uneven inserts. The way playfields are made, is the inserts are CAD out. then inserts are inserted. Then the whole playfield is sent through a plainer to level everything out.

Also, putting it on a light table to check for ghosting won't do shit, as you can't really see the ghosting when the inserts are lit. Only when off.

I already told you the facts.

you do realize that games made in the 80's don't have clearcoat on them , so you couldn't have chipping,, and usually don't have much dimpling because you don't get airballs on early SS games.

While Ghosting is normal. It is true that these new sterns are doing it wayy premature. Maybe stern switched to water based clearcoat, as my clearcoat dist, told me, that 10 years from now, everyone will be water based clearcoat. EPA is forcing it to convert over. Which for cars is fine. but wood. I could see it not wanting to seal. But the ghosting is on the plastic, so maybe the clear is causing the plastic to react and give off some kind of minor gas. which would start to create an air pocket. Could be it's not scuffed enough before inking. there is at least 10-20 factors it could be. Tho, it does seem to be something that was changed in the process right before GB.

I told my Dist, that when they are converting permanently, let me know and i'll buy 30-40 cases of clear quickly. I do not know how the water based is going to be for playfields. The stuff I use has performed well for me for 12 years now, and I don't want to convert to anything new if I don't have to. Just asking for problems by switching a system that works.

Yes, when he said 80's i'm thinking alien poker, mystic, paragon, things like that.

I do agree Stern has changed something, and the formula has some problems. We are seeing consistent problems. 1 or 2 games, sure...it's going to happen and not much you can do about it. When it's consistent with several releases, then something changed and effecting things.

Stern could still sell the "full" game for $3900 and still make profit from it. Don't kid yourself that their profit margin isn't through the roof.

what's ironic, is that AFM is the stripped down version of the B/W games. It's basically the IM/GOT/RS of theirs. No other B/W dmd has less on it and more cheap looking.

not me. I don't like AFM at all because I think it looks like an empty piece of crap and the rules are written for a 3 year old. I like clutter on my fields. Give me TZ any day over stripped down econogames.

B/W games I call it fogging. And it wasn't the primer that caused it, it was the clear itself. Until the past 15 years or so. clear wasn't clear. It had a faint foggyness to it. Just the way the clear was. Todays technology clear is crystal clear. Trying to duplicate that foggyness is very difficult when you need to match chipped out clear on old b/w games.

I disagree, because that foggyness is over the art as well. Clearcoat was not clear in the 90's. could be a combination of both tho. Maybe primer and foggy clear.

And early SS games that used lacquer, are not foggy at all. Look nice and clear to me. you can see jeweling just fine on games that have jeweled inserts.

have you guys not been reading this thread or the other threads about ghosting? Why would anyone think a playfield protector or mylar is going to protect from ghosting? Ghosting has nothing to do with any of that. It's fluctuations in temp/humidity with wood vs plastic. Airbubbles under the clear. Shifting of the insert causes it. You can have a sheet of glass on top of the playfield, and if the plastic shifts...you are getting ghosting. Plain and simple.

if anything the playfield protector would make things worse, as it's not allowing the playfield to breathe. But that only matters if it was cleared 90 days or sooner before getting in the customers hands. Which is highly unlikely. These are usually done months before stern even sees them, then you have them sitting in manufacturing. Ball impact stress really doesn't do much to the ghosting issue. Only way it could, is if it pushed the insert down. but the way they are CAD cut. They really can't move down, but they can move up. It's more of the wood moving outwards that causes more than anything. The wood is what flexes, not the plastic. Plastic shrinks over the years, but it's a slow process.

yes. Remember, we stated how playfields are made. All inserts are inserted and glued in. Then they are sent through a plainer which sands off about 1/16-1/8" off the top of the field to make it flat, level the inserts to the playfield and scuff the playfield to get ready for screen printing so the ink sticks. Then it's screen printed. Then cleared.

So i'll repeat this for the 10th time in this thread alone. The reason it ghosts at the edges is because.........wait for it..........wait............wait for it........... Because of the Wood, expanding and contracting to the edges of the plastic insert. *Gasp*. So here we go again. Lets review.

Expanding and contracting of the wood
Plastic insert does not expand and contract
There for, creating a fault line on the edges of the insert. Allowing air to sneak in the back, up under the clear. and......>TA-DAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. Ghost pocket.

Now factors that can cause and accelerate this process. are.

Humidity and temp changes
Insert cutout too large allowing slop in the insert
Insert cutout too small allowing the insert to be forced upwards
Shrinking of the insert from the plastic shrinking (takes years and decades for this to happen)
insert made to the wrong spec and made to small or too large
silicone somehow got on the playfield
gremlins snuck into the factory and started banging on the inserts from the backside with a drill bit and a hammer.

considering I restore playfields for a living and have been a professional restorer for around 11 years now. I can tell you, that i've seen every single B/W clearcoated title with ghosting in some form or another. Every single game. Doesn't matter if it's T2, GI, AFM, NGG, MB, JM, DM, RFM, MM, every single one. Seen it out of DE and Sega as well. Even capcom. I've seen it on CPR fields, and HEP fields. It's unavoidable.

Remember air humidity and extreme temp changes from being shipped around the country can be a contributing factor. Even if the plywood flexes .5 mm, if air can seep in from behind. You will get it. But it is true they could be using a new type of glue, that is giving off gas way after it's hardened. Which would force an air pocket as well.

Thank you for posting. Maybe with several of us posting, people will start to listen.

Size of the insert comes into play as well. Seems bigger inserts have better chance to ghost. Lot more surface area to shift and a lot more wood touching the insert.

those triangle arrows like to shift a ton too. Look on F14 and Fire. They are always raised up at least 1/8". Don't know why they like to move a ton. I think it's the shape, likes to squeeze out of it's spot like fingerpops. Where a round insert has even pressure all the way around.

that's why I think it's either a CAD issue. (insert holes not cut right) or an issue with the glue giving off gas long after the gluing process.

on EM's, the inserts have shrank so much, there is a huge gap between the wood and the plastic. even if the glue is holding up, it's so far away from the wood, there isn't a way it could even hold. Most EM's I can pop out inserts from the backside with just a little push with my finger.

wood grain causes the vertical lines you get down the field, if that's what you are referring to.

and yes it's for her pleasure as well.

It's not a new thing. It's not a stern thing. it will happen to the other brands as well. If it has clearcoat, it can happen.

Hate ghosting? Buy early SS or EM's that are not clearcoated. Problem solved.

a lot has to do where you live and where you keep your games. Someone that leaves the game sit in the garage is going to ghost faster. Higher humidity areas, more ghosting. The more expanding and contracting the wood goes through, the faster it happens. We all live in different regions. Games move around totally different climate conditions. Really hard to judge which climates are speeding this process up.

i know of several people that had a NIB game sitting in a garage when it was 90 degrees out side , until they could bring it in the house and get it setup. That's all it takes. Extreme cold or extreme heat can make it happen prematurely. I'm not saying this is the only factor, but it still is a factor. could be different levels of wood. Could be different plastic in the inserts, could be how those inserts are glued and CAD cut. I really don't think it's the clear itself. Clear really can only be made one way. Playfields are ground flat and then screen printed. So they are all scuffed the same through the leveling process. Ghosting can't be the clear or it would do it in random spots, not just on insert edges.

some walking dead and some ST's have ghosting. People have showed them on here.

who the hell said don't reclear over old clear? It's impossible to remove. there is no way around it. That's not the best advice. I know zaccaria clear is kind of dangerous and should be only wet sanded with good ventilation. WPC and such, I clear over diamond plate almost daily. There isn't any other option.

i've been using the same clear now for around 11 years, and I still have full access to it, with no hint of it going away anytime soon. If EPA put out some regulations that limit access to certain types of clear, I have not heard about it, nor am I effected by it.

no he said an old restorer said. That's what I was asking.

i'm fully aware that my job will probably kill me in the end. I do what I can, but i'm sure it will catch up to me sooner or later.

Ghosting is hit or miss. I've seen ghosting in all playfields done by every restorer. It's something we cannot control. We can get rid of it if it happens to a point. But there is nothing we can do to keep it from possibly coming back. Types of plastic and shape of the inserts does have a huge factor if they are prone to ghosting more than others.