Two days and 400 posts. We all know the truth by now.

This post created an absolute S storm. Distributors got orders cancelled or threatened Stern that they were not going to take delivery of games unless they continued to support their product and replace playfields.

This thread forced Stern to issue a statement to keep the games on schedule and delivery on schedule. They would not have responded otherwise, I guess they may have lost 100 orders and that was going to hurt.

We all know they wanted language to reject some potential claims.

Stern needs to hire a good process person who can produce control charts and get to the problem. Everytime they mess up, we see a price increase. It's so pathetic. Bad playfields and we get games take longer to program with price hike.

Aux boards nightmare and a price hike. On and on. Rinse, repeat.

Ya call me a follower, but when I see a school of fish swimming wildly away from potential danger I will follow until the coast is clear. Let the other fish test the water for me

Slightly off the track
Have a look at CGC production update page 17 on the forum and see the quality of the packaging for the topper

Mr Gary Stern you might wish to have a look yourself .

Hi All,
Anyone who has cancelled orders over this is truly over reacting. It may confirm what I have been preaching for a long time. Make sure you purchase from a reputable dealer. We stand behind what we sell regardless of manufacturer. I also know that there are many dealers who feel the same way. So ask your dealer "What if?". The ultimate correct answer is that you should breathe easy. That we will stand behind what we sell. That our warranty covers A,B, and C. To say potential issues are limited to one manufacturer would be folly. We have seen issues with everyone. It is funny, yesterday we took in a Williams Miss-O to restore, we always go through everything before we begin, it hit me how much more complex the new pinballs are. I know that seems a bit cliché but it really is light years apart. I have over forty years in this industry. It is funny how people look at past eras of pinball as so much better. I can tell you that the 80's and 90's were nightmares as far as manufacturer quality. In those days pinball's major customers were route operators. Most of whom had technicians that would have to deal with quality issues beyond the pale. We would get several "patches" sent to us before the "hot" new pinball worked like it should. It amazes me that we have these wildly sophisticated and wonderful machines and for the most part they come to us right. The issues that have been discussed here have never been widespread.
So after a long trip around the barn, buy from a reputable dealer and you will be just fine!

-J

We would replace it. That is what we warranty. We have been in business a long time. In fact this is our 75th year. I don't know about setting the standard in the industry. I always try to put myself in my customers shoes. Theses games are not inexpensive. There needs to be coverage. I just wish there was some industry wide standard. We are now selling games to a fourth generation. So we must be doing something correctly. I also want to make the point that we are not the only distributor that takes care of it's customers. There are many spread across the country. You just have to make sure you are buying from one of them.

-J

This is a joke

I disagree that it is "overreacting."

People are sending a statement to Stern that what they're producing is not acceptable. Lowering quality while raising prices is just not going to fly.

Stern produced great playfields for years, and ever since Ghostbusters and Spider-man VE hit the scene, it's been a gamble on whether your playfield is going to be screwed up. You shouldn't have to cross your fingers when buying a Stern and hope you don't get one of the bad ones.

This claiming ghosting is normal is a bullshit move, and we all know it.

I'm glad I dropped SW like a hot potato, looking forward to my HIGH QUALITY AFMr LE which should be here any day. Looking forward to it's nice no ghosting playfield, rock solid cabinet and a 12/24 month warranty. If CGC keeps up with this level of quality and communication then the sky is the limit for them. I hope they have plans to get into new themes too, they could quickly become the market leader at this rate.

I'm glad you stepped up to the plate in this thread and display your standards so everyone can see. Shows that you are a serious contender and not a "it's not my problem, it's Stern's problem" kinda business. Mind you it really sucks that you have to deal with this shit. 3 thumbs way up for you

Just to confirm, if my game gets 10,000 plays in 364 days, and has something on the playfield I am not happy with (maybe chipped clear in the drain, or crackle in 1 insert, or too much shooter lane wear), you would replace it under warranty?

If so, every operator should be buying pins for their route through you.

Seems like the only way forward now is to buy from a distributor that has already set up each pin so you can view/play before buying and back up what they sell. Distributors have much more pull with Stern than individuals and this move by Stern is a strong statement of where they stand. The little guy will get screwed so you better have someone with some pull on your side.

If your local distributor will not do this then now is the time to stop buying from them. Travel to a show near you and buy from a distributor that will stand behind their product.

The other way is buy second hand so you will know the condition or price will reflect condition.

If NIB buyers can no longer trust in the condition of the product they are buying then what other choice is there?

If this is true and other operators start to adapt to this standard the "street price" for pins is going to quickly get much closer to the MSRP. Distributors aren't making very much margin on NIB sales as it is and having to eat the cost of replacement PF's will have to come from somewhere.

If the policy is 100% factual (and I have no reason to believe it isn't) then it's still not good for the end users in the long run.

Very curious about this. What if the situation is so bad that 50% of the playfields need replacing ? Seeing how many reports there are now of SW Pros with ghosting that would not surprise me. And if the replacements you buy from Stern are also bad ??

Not trying to stirr something up here, but the distributor over here has stated the opposite with GB already. Playfield ghosting is for the account of Stern. If Stern says no, distri says no also. He argues that it would cost more than the profit of several machines to cover the cost of a replacement.

Don't be fooled with Stern's warranty. I bought a Ghostbusters Prem from JJ at Game Exchange, who I really like doing business with, JJ is a great guy. My GB chipped in the shooter lane within the 1st 30 games. As soon as I saw the chipping I put Mylar on it and ordered Cliffy's for the shooter lane and the drain. The damage was already done so I emailed JJ and sent him photos. Stern told us to keep playing the game they were at that point figuring out what they were going to do. I then started having very minor ghosting on one of my inserts. I really wasn't worried about that because it was very minor. I then started having major dimpling, so bad that if the ball came down the playfield in certain places the dimpling would effect the ball as it was coming down the playfield. Keep in mind I've been in this hobby for several years and I've had many machines and also bought some new in box. I know what dimpling is on a new machine. I know that's normal and I know after many plays this all balances out, but this was not normal. When the ball changes direction from the dimpling there's a problem. This was happening because of all the major air balls every time you played the game, and yes I bought the shield that helped some but still had air ball issues. Many many more air balls then any game I've ever owned. I took detailed photos of the dimpling and sent them to JJ and he forwarded them to Stern. I didn't know what they would do. You would think at the least they would give me a repair kit for the chipping or come up with some solution for the 100's of major air balls. Keep in mind I've got machines that were built in the 90's with no chipping and I've got 3 other Stern machines with no chipping. After JJ talked to them several times Stern decided this was normal and they did nothing. I was pretty upset, not at JJ but at Stern. After I started thinking about it, if they sent me a new playfield it was going to do the same thing if not worse. They could at least have offered to pay for the Cliffy's and the shield and a repair kit for the chipping but no they did nothing. So I fixed it all myself. The Cliffy's in the shooter lane fixed the chipping problem. I bought some angled pieces to put on the 2 stand ups that fixed 99% of the air balls so the dimpling stopped. I was lucky that the ghosting never got any worse. Now my game plays great and I'm not worried every time the ball shoots out into the shooter lane that wood is chipping away.

I said all that to say this, the clear chipping and the ghosting is not going away with Stern games any time soon. When they changed playfield suppliers this all started happening. Making playfields is an art and it takes a while to learn how to do it right. Stern can't afford to replace every playfield that they put into games. Unless you have major ghosting from inserts falling away from the clear and then that ghosting starts chipping in the middle of the playfield, Stern will do nothing. When you buy a Stern pinball, which I have several and love them, be prepared to deal with minor ghosting and chipping in the shooter lane. If you can't deal with that, I would advise before you play the 1st game put on every Cliffy that is offered for the game, and as soon as you see any problems with the way the game plays like air balls find a way to fix the problem fast yourself.

This is not a Stern bashing it's just something you will have to either live with or stop buying Stern until there playfield maker figures out how to do it right, if that ever happens. Again they can't afford to replace all these play fields over small ghosting and small chipping or they want be around long. They just can't. That's my take on the situation.

I tried to order Amerosmith last week.

My distro of choice was out of stock until tomorrow so I set a reminder in my calander to order this week.

I was really bummed out last week but maybe I dodged a bullet?

The Aerosmith promo video had ghosting, Star Wars has ghosting, newer GOT, GB, SMve & MET now have ghosting.... Stern now states on their user guide that ghosting is not covered & buyers are SOL?

My TWD does not have ghosting.
My LOTR does not have ghosting.
My TSPP does not have ghosting.
My FGY does not have ghosting.

I'm reconsidering my Stern Aerosmith purchase & leaning towards picking up a NIB AFMr. I'm buying something. Maybe I will be a doucher & get that pompous Rolex?

Stern failed my Star Wars expectations by such a degree that I went from "take my money" to "lol fuck off" within 60 seconds. Here they (Stern) are again ruining another slam dunk guaranteed sale.

I've never had a company convince me twice in 1 month not to spend a combined $10K-$15K before.

If I had a minor issue I'd be fine. I don't expect perfection & I am not going to waste my time on a tiny ghost sliver on 1-2 inserts. But if clear coat is falling off the play field & insert ghosting is significant then I would want a replacement. Not sure if this new disclosure is to screw over the guy with a legit situation or to prevent chasing their own tails on the OCD never happy guy w/minimal issues?

I deal with the public every day. Some customers make bitching their hobby. Shit some make it their life's work lol. But when genuine folks with genuine issues need help I give my 110%. The other folks get -10% from me. I hope Stern is just putting this disclosure in place to filter out the pricks rather than hose their good clients.

you do realize that games made in the 80's don't have clearcoat on them , so you couldn't have chipping,, and usually don't have much dimpling because you don't get airballs on early SS games.

While Ghosting is normal. It is true that these new sterns are doing it wayy premature. Maybe stern switched to water based clearcoat, as my clearcoat dist, told me, that 10 years from now, everyone will be water based clearcoat. EPA is forcing it to convert over. Which for cars is fine. but wood. I could see it not wanting to seal. But the ghosting is on the plastic, so maybe the clear is causing the plastic to react and give off some kind of minor gas. which would start to create an air pocket. Could be it's not scuffed enough before inking. there is at least 10-20 factors it could be. Tho, it does seem to be something that was changed in the process right before GB.

I told my Dist, that when they are converting permanently, let me know and i'll buy 30-40 cases of clear quickly. I do not know how the water based is going to be for playfields. The stuff I use has performed well for me for 12 years now, and I don't want to convert to anything new if I don't have to. Just asking for problems by switching a system that works.

I should of said early 90's. TAF is my oldest game in my collection. I've refurbished games older but just to sell. Yes I do know this. Again I've been collecting for a good while now.

Neo

For many folks here the only games in their collection with ghosting will be recent Stern's.

That is an indicator, not a "normal"

I do think another member here had a good point. Maybe the SW PF's were made a while back by the same GB play field folks in order for Stern to ramp up inventory on a pending release.

Take that wallet and throw it in your safe and forget about it for a week

Yes, when he said 80's i'm thinking alien poker, mystic, paragon, things like that.

I do agree Stern has changed something, and the formula has some problems. We are seeing consistent problems. 1 or 2 games, sure...it's going to happen and not much you can do about it. When it's consistent with several releases, then something changed and effecting things.

Happy to see Stern send a clarification on the policy to distribution. But, until the wording is changed in the manual on warranty, my money isn't going their direction. I sold my Ghostbusters because of this pain in the ass and won't start over again with a new one now. Especially after their initial statement in the manual. My Star Wars premium dollars just bought a TNA. Got more to send Sterns way if they can win some trust back and show a little value for the dollar on the playfield.

Ghosting, color changing LEDs on the playfield getting scaled back, coin door interlock switch gone (that sucks when cleaning location games), support rails gone, bill acceptor harness gone, playfield toys untested and released (I'm looking at you Metallica hammer, right ramp on GB, loop on GoT, shooter lane trajectory doesn't come close to working (GB), beta code releases, list goes on..), freaking expensive game specific node boards and parts.. And to all of you manufacturers... Needing a full playfield protector on a home use only game..?? Come on..!!!

On the flip side of that... Games are great to play. Aerosmith is one solid ass game. And they earn like a mf'er. I get tightening the purse strings, but lately it's been a bit much with the associated price hikes..

Maybe I'm just getting burnt out on the drama with every new release (not just Stern). It can really pull some of the magic out of this hobby.

Say that again?

^^^This Exactly^^^

Almost waited for Star Wars but pulled the trigger on AFMr LE instead.
So very happy.

I have a plan if SHTF on my next purchase to create some accountability on Stern's part but opted to just keep it to myself rather than fuel rebellion or create mountains out of molehills by those folks with too much time on their hands & no real PF issues.

So I've got Stern's back until they dont have mine. If they fail me however it's gonna get weird

Much better put than my rant. Quite the wordsmith!

Ya I read it then it was gone. Don't worry I'll keep it a secret. I thought a mod deleted your post lol

Canada, with pure Canadian maple and birch plywood?

Wish you sold games in New Zealand.

I have really been wanting SW, and have bought many nib games over the past 20 years. So, I'm not new at this, and after I just got a Aerosmith NIB, bad cab, stern was great at saying I will be getting a replacement, but 5000 minimum for a new pinball, is a lot of money. And it's great that stern will replace certain things, but still a pain in the ass, as you end up having to do the work! I can't imagine buying anything else for that kind of cash, like a tv and it has a bad pixel, they won't send you a screen and tell you to replace it yourself? Maybe in the future I will go back to buying new sterns, but the money I was holding for SW will be going possibly a AFMR or something else. Sorry Gary, love your pins, but I work hard for my money to just give it away.

Like a figurehead of a famous pinball manufacturer once said; "We love you Cliffy; but our machines won't need your protectors".

You have to look at this realistically.

I know people here think Stern is making money hand over fist and Gary Stern and George Gomez are taking turns bathing in '56 Dom Perignon in between playful fights armed with pillow cases filled with cash.

In reality, they are likely making a meager profit on a very small and low-margin business. We can't expect them to simply replace pinball machines at their expense like Sony replaces a bad LCD TV or Apple replaces a 6 month old iphone that stops working. They'd be out of business before it was time to change flipper rubbers if they adopted this kind of policy.

I know that doesn't make people happy but it's the truth. Pinball consumers aren't the same as toaster consumers, and Stern isn't the same as Wal-Mart. Nobody is getting rich selling pinball machines, and the level of customer service people expect from huge international electronics manufacturers is not possible to provide in the pinball business, and it never will be.

I'm not slamming anybody and I'm not saying it's "ok" if your playfield is ghosting. All I'm saying is this is reality. People who can't accept that need to think long and hard about whether or not they should be buying new pinball machines. If the new Stern manual makes people do that, it's a good thing for everybody.

It really is IMO a simple but good idea with results likely to compound rather than fizzle out since Stern cannot edit, control or contain that fire in any way.

No wonder you thought a mod deleted it lol

I started to think "Oh shit, that could go viral too soon & have real consequences" so I deleted it. I'm from STL so I've seen first hand what social media & a mob mentality can do to our city which caused me to pause & delete.

Find the teevee manufacturer's "Pixel Policy". Similar to ghosting, I can assure you it does not favor the consumer.

Maybe Costco should start selling stern pinballs, they take anything back! Lol

Ahh of course this whole thing is a back door reach-around to bring back the zizzle!

Just weighing in on this thread for first time. I recently purchased a MET Pro and have no issues with ghosting however you can see some grain in the playfield plywood. Not a huge issue but still for a HOU guy a bit unfortunate. That being said I love my MET and can live with the odd blemish as I bought it to play not be a showpiece. I also have an AC/DC from the first run and after 5 years of play the playfield is still perfect and actually better looking than my MET. Being from Canada we are paying over $8000.00 for a Pro model machine these days so yes we should expect a good quality product and let's hope Stern will deliver. I have my order in already for a AS Pro and a Star Wars Premium which are all looking like great games. I know this is a crazy question but is there not any semi sticky mylar overlays being made for any of the new games being produced to protect the playfields better. Something that will peel off easy and is replaceable after so many plays. Just a thought.

Stern needs to look at it realistically. Their market has shifted. Pinball on location is weak across most of the country and the people that love it are buying games for their homes since it's the only reasonable way to play. Every company that fails to see their market shift goes out of business. Ask the Blockbuster people that laughed at Netflix.

Stern better start making their machines for the toaster crowd, or they're going to wind up making actual toasters. The people aren't wrong here (no matter how many times you say it), the manufacturer is.

Stern can't possibly do that and stay in business. No matter how many times you say it. Wrong or right has nothing to do about it.

They already did it... They made pinball machines without ghosting playfields for 20+ years.

I AGREE!!!!! What?!..... JAWS?? .....take My Money!!!!

I stopped buying nib after my Kiss machine had decal issues and how Stern treated me then. Stern has gotten worse, not better with quality control since my experience. I am not a Stern hater, I just wont but nib. Until enough people stop buying them, Stern will not change. Its sad and arrogant on their part. I just picked up a Tron, Lord of the Rings and a Family guy in the past few months. I will always buy used Sterns. Its more enjoyable then laying out big money to be treated like I was by them over a year ago, and they seem to continue getting worse. Sad.

"Stern better start making their machines for the toaster crowd"

They should talk to that guy making the hardtop playfield overlays. That'd cure ghosting . The glue he uses sounds like it could survive nuclear war.

Screening on wood + clearcoating is fairly labor intense and isn't exactly inexpensive. I'm sure many people would have a nervous breakdown if they'd start using alternative materials and methods to fabricate playfields, but they might have to if new clear coat regulations are behind the current issues.

Stern is making meager profits? LMAO!
Should we start a go fund me page?

Batman $10k/$15k LE and SLE with no code and hot wheels toys.

Yeah, no one is getting rich lol

Is Lyman still working on that game exclusively?

You really think that these guys are getting rich? You are an emotional guy but you can't seriously believe that these LEs and SLEs are doing much more than helping keep the lights on at Stern.

None of us know exactly what's going on over there. But I'm going with my gut on this one.

If you want more toys on the machine

What are you basing this on? I don't see what would lead you to believe that stern is having to run outside to pay the power company every Friday to keep the lights on.