Stern NEW policy - GHOSTING IS NORMAL....OR IS IT?

(Topic ID: 194604)

Stern NEW policy - GHOSTING IS NORMAL....OR IS IT?


By capguntrooper

1 year ago



Topic Stats

  • 839 posts
  • 224 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 months ago by leonml
  • Topic is favorited by 24 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Are Cloudy inserts, stress cracks and GHOSTING often seen on NIB pins and should that be normal?”

  • NO WAY ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! 594 votes
    77%
  • YES, ghosting is often seen on NIB pins and is normal. 45 votes
    6%
  • I don't care I am never buying a NIB from STERN again 135 votes
    17%

(Multiple choice - 774 votes by 748 Pinsiders)

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There are 839 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 17.
#201 1 year ago

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#202 1 year ago

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#203 1 year ago
Quoted from Manic:

"I'm sorry sir... we know your Ferrari has some chipping and lifting of the clearcoat but you have to remember... these were actually meant for rental car agencies to use... they don't mind so what's YOUR beef with it?"

Even better analogy - exactly!

-3
#204 1 year ago
Quoted from Lermods:

if anyone wants a new out of box pro with no ghosting and a few nice mods (shaker, mirrors, backbox) I'll sell mine. But because it has no ghosting or any other issues, I guess it should come with a premium price. Make me an offer if you are serious.

I am actually dead serious on this. If someone wants a sw pro known to have a good playfield with maybe 100 plays,, let me know. I'll include a lighted millennium falcon too. Game plays really nice. I'd want 5700 for it...includes shaker and mirrors.

#206 1 year ago
Quoted from MrBally:

With about 50 commercial distributors in the US and 30 "home use" distributors, It is safe to say there are more NIB Stern pins sold to route operators than to home collectors.

I question your conclusions. I'd bet ever NIB pin sold for location sells two into homes. People end up driving to the location to try it out and see if they want to buy it for their house. Using Metallica as an example, I can't point to a single one on location, yet I know 4 friends with it in their gameroom. And that's just people I know well. This coin has flipped. Home pinball has expanded way beyond location pinball. We are the customers now.

#207 1 year ago

Attention Pinball Manufactures.

If you think customers are not important try living without them for a while and see what happens.

i-am-your-customer (resized).jpg

-10
#208 1 year ago
Quoted from ASOA:

Attention Pinball Manufactures.
If you think customers are not important try living without them for a while and see what happens.

We will see what happens. I'm pretty sure those high margins on the premiums may disappear with the customer base.

Why not make the same play field for all games and guarantee the LEs and Premiums to have play fields without issues and keep the policy in place for pros. It would minimize customer loss and would steer the home crowd towards premium and LE games.

-10
#209 1 year ago

The ghosting is more likely due to improper preparation of the playfield than bad clearcoat. Just to add some balance to this thread, over half of the B/W pins I've owned have had issues with inserts cracking, ghosting, separating and even raising. Yes, those games are 10+ years old, so it's to be expected.

Let's quantify the real cost of the problem. If you have a few ghosted inserts, how much does that really knock off the price in the HUO market? I think a reasonable compromise would be for Stern to offer a $200 credit toward Stern Accessories (e.g. upgraded rails), and for home collectors to accept that.

More light, less heat. Treat Stern with respect and they'll respond in kind. Stern is made up of people, just like us.

#210 1 year ago

Please don't say that the next stern topper will just cost 200.00 more.

#211 1 year ago
Quoted from dnapac:

One more question. So, we have run into this problem, and the companies don't seem to be very innovating with fixes on site. Has anyone tried to fix a ghosting insert? One way I have thought of it using a fine needle and injected more clearcoat directly into the bubble. The small puncture could be lightly sanded and polished so almost not visible...just a thought.

We used UV resin with a very fine needle. You need 2 needles, one to inject and one to purge. Injected the resin and UV cured. Works, but we should not be doing this on any new machine. We got the info from a thread on Pinside. We currently have 8 machines and the only machine that had ghosting was GBLE. We attempted the fix the day before we were due to get our replacement playfield.

#212 1 year ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

JJP is having major problems right now as we speak with the DI playfields chipping. As far as spooky goes......they just don't have anything I'm interested in. JJP also won't send you a new playfield, just a piece of Mylar or a sticker to cover the chipped clear coat. JJP is no better than Stern so don't listen to the JJP "high quality" BS because it's not true.

I have a woz with less than 90 plays with a big ol red line across the screen. Because it was over a year old its not their problem.

#213 1 year ago
Quoted from hank527:

We will see what happens. I'm pretty sure those high margins on the premiums may disappear with the customer base.
Why not make the same play field for all games and guarantee the LEs and Premiums to have play fields without issues and keep the policy in place for pros. It would minimize customer loss and would steer the home crowd towards premium and LE games.

Because this rewards Stern for poor quality control and indifference to their customers.

#214 1 year ago

I doubt that I would ever own a Stern, let alone a NIB Stern, but any new playfield that is ghosting is not a good thing.

I would expect anything that I purchase *new* to be just as they advertise. It should match the pictures/description of what they show of the product.

Now after some time passes, I understand that use and even the environment itself will cause changes. Those things will vary from machine to machine. A manufacturer that is known for problems that develop after time will have that tied to their name for a long time. And eventually, it will come back to haunt them.

The only machine I'm considering buying NIB would be the next Elvira machine. If Stern is building it...then I'll have to re-evaluate that decision.

#215 1 year ago
Quoted from master_of_chaos:

The folks at STERN should listen to Steve:
» YouTube video

You should email that link to gary

#216 1 year ago
Quoted from swampfire:

The ghosting is more likely due to improper preparation of the playfield than bad clearcoat. Just to add some balance to this thread, over half of the B/W pins I've owned have had issues with inserts cracking, ghosting, separating and even raising. Yes, those games are 10+ years old, so it's to be expected.
Let's quantify the real cost of the problem. If you have a few ghosted inserts, how much does that really knock off the price in the HUO market? I think a reasonable compromise would be for Stern to offer a $200 credit toward Stern Accessories (e.g. upgraded rails), and for home collectors to accept that.
More light, less heat. Treat Stern with respect and they'll respond in kind. Stern is made up of people, just like us.

You could offer me $1000 in credit and I would not take it. People who buy NIB want NIB as advertised. Respect has NOTHING to do with buying an as advertised product. Tree hugging nice guy mentality will get you nowhere in this life. RESPECT IS EARNED. Not given away at MSRP only to find out you received something not as advertised. Take that with a pound of salt dude. I am a bit jaded anyway, the majority of the places I go to, the indigenous population wants to kill me, what do I know.

27
#217 1 year ago
Quoted from swampfire:

More light, less heat. Treat Stern with respect and they'll respond in kind. Stern is made up of people, just like us.

Not much on Pinside pisses me off, but this part did.

So I'm going to state civilly that I strongly disagree and leave it to that before I get myself in trouble.

32
#218 1 year ago
Quoted from swampfire:

More light, less heat. Treat Stern with respect and they'll respond in kind. Stern is made up of people, just like us.

Other way around. Treat the customers, who they want thousands from, with respect...and they'll respond in kind.

#219 1 year ago

Any Aerosmith or Batman 66 games have ghosting on them?

#220 1 year ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

Any Aerosmith or Batman 66 games have ghosting on them?

I know of some examples, but I think they are few and far between.

#221 1 year ago
Quoted from hank527:

I know of some examples, but I think they are few and far between.

I just don't get how Star Wars could be ghosting.

Star Trek LE, Transformers LE, and KISS LE had no ghosting on my games...no clue why stern would change things up.

#222 1 year ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

...no clue why stern would change things up.

Less costly for them = more profit.

#223 1 year ago
Quoted from DaveH:

Less costly.

How much could they possibly have saved?

#224 1 year ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

Not much on Pinside pisses me off, but this part did.
So I'm going to state civilly that I strongly disagree and leave it to that before I get myself in trouble.

Sorry I upset you. I'm just suggesting that torches and pitchforks don't always solve the problem.

#225 1 year ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

How much could they possibly have saved?

I don't think anyone really knows.

I'll toss this out there with zero supporting data. Perhaps it's to keep their assembly lines moving. Stern loses money if their assembly lines aren't making pins. Maybe Stern decides to "accelerate" the playfield process (drying time before the clear, drying after after the clear, etc) in order to ensure the assembly lines have work to do. Just a guess

#226 1 year ago

Well it looks like I will not be purchasing another NIB game. I thought this issue was solved so I purchased a Met Pro. No problems for me after about 300 games, but I can't take that chance again.
So no Sterns for QC issues and frankly ball other games are to expensive for me. $5000 is a ton of money, but that's my limit.

#227 1 year ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

Any Aerosmith or Batman 66 games have ghosting on them?

Mine are as good as it gets on both. That is what is so nuts about SW.

#228 1 year ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

How much could they possibly have saved?

Who knows, but how much money did they save moving the power switch from its traditional spot to under the head?

-12
#229 1 year ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Who knows, but how much money did they save moving the power switch from its traditional spot to under the head?

Ops may have asked them to do that, due to people reaching under the game and turning the game off on their "friends".

26
#230 1 year ago
Quoted from swampfire:

Ops may have asked them to do that, due to people reaching under the game and turning the game off on their "friends".

Same ops that told them they want pegs instead of support brackets?

#231 1 year ago

New in the box Playfield defects are unacceptable. I've had quite a few pinball machines over the years. Only four have had "ghosting". One was a heavily routed no good Gofers. The rest are Sterns. One a 2007 black Spider-Man. A Ghostbusters Pro 2016. And a 2003 Lord of the Rings. I can accept this on the older games. NIB.....no way.

I passed on quite a few Sterns because of these unacceptable playfield issues.

#232 1 year ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

i feel for those that have had play field replacements a I suspect give it a year and it will ghost again.

My GB premium was replaced end of April, sadly my populated replacement is ghosting again at the same 2 inserts. Under 3 months. Not happy.

#233 1 year ago
Quoted from mnpinball:

My GB premium was replaced end of April, sadly my populated replacement is ghosting again at the same 2 inserts. Under 3 months. Not happy.

Damn! Did you put in a request for a replacement replacement before the new disclaimer/clause came out?

#234 1 year ago
Quoted from hank527:

We will see what happens. I'm pretty sure those high margins on the premiums may disappear with the customer base.
Why not make the same play field for all games and guarantee the LEs and Premiums to have play fields without issues and keep the policy in place for pros. It would minimize customer loss and would steer the home crowd towards premium and LE games.

Oh yeah that makes a lot of sense there now! Hey Stern, F*ck those poor Pro buyers that can't afford a Premium or an LE and don't give them a playfield replacement if their playfield starts ghosting or chipping, they're nothing but low income scum anyway! You have got to be kidding me dude? Most of those Pro buyers would not move up to a Premium/LE model and just tell Stern to F*ck off, and don't think for a minute that Stern doesn't want and need the Pro buyers because they do. That is one of the most insulting things that I've ever heard anyone say on here.

#235 1 year ago

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#236 1 year ago

Just curious...for my sake. How often does a ghosting insert lead to chipping, and does Mylar over the insert help prevent chipping? Trying to prepare myself for the future of a ghosting Met pro pin and how to limit it, protect it, or fix it. I know, I know, Stern should never have let this happen and they should fix it...but I'm just trying to be realistic with the current situation.

#237 1 year ago

Alot going on here in this thread... I pursued purchasing two NIB Stern PRO machines, after selling my Harley touring bike. Decided to go with one from another company.

They have the right to sell what they want to sell. BUT someone should face-to-face with George or John and find out what the hell is actually being marketed to us. Specifically, those cabinets and these playfields. I can even look past the Spike/SAM talk.

What is going on with there supply chain? They piss of Churchill making MMR and now they are working out new vendor "bugs" or.....?

#238 1 year ago

I appologize for the grammar and spelling. If it means anything, I DID play pinball this weekend and not just bitch.

21
#239 1 year ago
Quoted from swampfire:

Sorry I upset you. I'm just suggesting that torches and pitchforks don't always solve the problem.

No need to apologize; you have a right to your opinion and I respect that. And I respect the valiant approach. But when it's your $8500 and you're sold a piece of shit, then told that it's as designed (like my orbit problems on GOT LE) or not covered by any warranty...all while prices continue to rise and quality declines, then being nice will accomplish nothing. I actually think customers have been too nice up to this point.

#240 1 year ago
Quoted from swampfire:

Ops may have asked them to do that, due to people reaching under the game and turning the game off on their "friends".

Ive heard from ops directly that the new power switch location is a pain in the balls. If you have a row of machines....its a tight squeeze to turn on off.... Some of the staff at bars cant find the power switch....so the machine will stay on...

#241 1 year ago
Quoted from capguntrooper:

Damn! Did you put in a request for a replacement replacement before the new disclaimer/clause came out?

My request was October 2016. Was waiting for the dust to settle on a fix to be figured out. Received my replacement late April. The shooter lane was chipping and flaking also. It's not an insert issue, it's a clear coat chemical mix/product issue. I believe it's too hard or too much hardner in the formula. Have not heard but one issue in the wild on Aerosmith.
People need to STFU about dimples, that's normal. Chipping, peeling, lifting or ghosting ( which is a preemptive issue of the aforementioned problems) that's not normal.

15
#242 1 year ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Oh heck no.
I was really hoping they would actually fix the ghosting issue. The other manufacturers don't seem to have this problem, and I have yet to see ghosting on anything other than a couple of CV pins.

I see ghosting all the time on many games.

CV, ToTAN, IJ, TAF, TZ, HS2, GI, AFM, MB, Shadow, you name it. If it has clearcoat on it, i've probably seen a playfield or 2 that had ghosting somewhere. It's inevitable. It can happen, anywhere, any time, any manufacturer. The problem is, that inserts are shifting way earlier than expected (on these new sterns), which is causing the ghosting. it's either from the CAD cutouts of the playfield, not being tight enough for the insert. Or too tight. Or crappy glue allowing shifting. Or the insert is a plastic that is shrinking at a massively fast rate. System 11's have a bad problem with the plastic used in the inserts, reacting with the lacquer and creating air pocket bubbles in the plastic of the insert. Which when clearcoated. makes them really stand out. So many factors can create these problems, and you won't know right away. Very hard issue to track down.

if you want a pinball company to step up their game and release a better product, and reduce prices. You HAVE to stop buying. It's the only way you will be heard.

#243 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

I see ghosting all the time on many games.
CV, ToTAN, IJ, TAF, TZ, HS2, GI, AFM, MB, Shadow, you name it. If it has clearcoat on it, i've probably seen a playfield or 2 that had ghosting somewhere. It's inevitable. It can happen, anywhere, any time, any manufacturer. The problem is, that inserts are shifting way earlier than expected (on these new sterns), which is causing the ghosting. it's either from the CAD cutouts of the playfield, not being tight enough for the insert. Or too tight. Or crappy glue allowing shifting. Or the insert is a plastic that is shrinking at a massively fast rate. System 11's have a bad problem with the plastic used in the inserts, reacting with the lacquer and creating air pocket bubbles in the plastic of the insert. Which when clearcoated. makes them really stand out. So many factors can create these problems, and you won't know right away. Very hard issue to track down.
if you want a pinball company to step up their game and release a better product, and reduce prices. You HAVE to stop buying. It's the only way you will be heard.

Very helpful. What I thought...but noone seems to be able to answer my question...if some are inevitable, what's the best way to deal with it. I'm sure, with all the innovation of the pinheads, someone has a good way to deal with it, and not just bitch about it.

#244 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

if you want a pinball company to step up their and release a better product, and reduce prices. You HAVE to stop buying. It's the only way you will be heard.

Thats the problem. Ive been going backwards on Stern pins. I bought Kiss and Met Nib/older inventory because I think they have more to offer than their current line up with the LCD screens ........and also hoping to avoid ghosting, cab splitting, and clearcoat issues.

#245 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

I see ghosting all the time on many games.
CV, ToTAN, IJ, TAF, TZ, HS2, GI, AFM, MB, Shadow, you name it. If it has clearcoat on it, i've probably seen a playfield or 2 that had ghosting somewhere. It's inevitable. It can happen, anywhere, any time, any manufacturer. The problem is, that inserts are shifting way earlier than expected (on these new sterns), which is causing the ghosting. it's either from the CAD cutouts of the playfield, not being tight enough for the insert. Or too tight. Or crappy glue allowing shifting. Or the insert is a plastic that is shrinking at a massively fast rate. System 11's have a bad problem with the plastic used in the inserts, reacting with the lacquer and creating air pocket bubbles in the plastic of the insert. Which when clearcoated. makes them really stand out. So many factors can create these problems, and you won't know right away. Very hard issue to track down.
if you want a pinball company to step up their game and release a better product, and reduce prices. You HAVE to stop buying. It's the only way you will be heard.

Thank you CaptainNeo for contributing information that is fact. All manufacturers seem to be having the same issues. I think that not glueing the inserts properly is what is causing the headaches. Like the cabinets, very little or no glue at all. The fact that none of the manufacturers will admit to what is happening is the part that worries us about buying NIB machines. Time will tell.

#246 1 year ago

I hope all manufactures have taken notice of this and similar posts. Your customers have spoken and voiced their concerns. If one person says he or she will not buy that is one thing but now let's take into consideration all of the negative publicity just one mistreated customer will cause. This hobby has alot of people who look to others for advice. I see a little better than 400 people that are not going to talk to highly about a certain manufacture. Now would be a good time to tell your customers that if a reasonable problem with your purchase is to occur it will be repaired or replaced as long as it is under warranty. They should also look into expanding there warranty for certain known defects so people feel confident that their very expensive purchase will last longer than 12 months. Put forth guidelines as far as what merits a repair or an exchange. That said if this was achieved we as customers should not be super picky if in the rare chance there is a slight imperfection on a game. (Once in a while) Please understand an imperfection is a minor blemish that would not effect the playability or the longevity of the game. Manufactures if you are listening now would be a good time to set forth this new policy. Private home buyers aside Operators will not be buying as many pins when they see the resale value tank on used games. Pins on route do not make that much money. Certain locations do very well but the overwhelming majority of pins on location do not bring in big bucks. Operators have not minded these low revenues over the past 4 years because the resale value has been so high on used routed pins. Buy a pin run it for a year or so and sell it for roughly 1k less from when you purchased it new. Granted it did not make a killing in earnings but It cost operators almost nothing to operate the game over that period of time. If the resale value takes a hit which it will if there is these kinds of problems that model no longer works and your largest customer base the Operator will no longer purchase your product. Manufactures we are eagerly awaiting your response.

#247 1 year ago

The folks that have Stern's ear are the big distributors and operators. If you want to be heard, ask your distributor to talk to Stern. Has anyone talked to Patrick Powers (nicely) about this? Ask him if Stern has found the root cause yet, and what they're doing to fix it going forward. I have a lot of respect for Patrick, and he's the guy I'd call if I had standing to complain.

#248 1 year ago
Quoted from Stones:

Ive heard from ops directly that the new power switch location is a pain in the balls. If you have a row of machines....its a tight squeeze to turn on off.... Some of the staff at bars cant find the power switch....so the machine will stay on...

I think the new switch position sucks, but there's an easy solution. Always keep your games on and plug them into a power strip...

#249 1 year ago
Quoted from swampfire:

The folks that have Stern's ear are the big distributors and operators. If you want to be heard, ask your distributor to talk to Stern. Has anyone talked to Patrick Powers (nicely) about this? Ask him if Stern has found the root cause yet, and what they're doing to fix it going forward. I have a lot of respect for Patrick, and he's the guy I'd call if I had standing to complain.

You can't even ask questions on Stern's Facebook page about any deficiencies without being kicked off their page. They don't exactly play nice.

Quoted from tslayer71:

I think the new switch position sucks, but there's an easy solution. Always keep your games on and plug them into a power strip...

This. I use a remote control that turns on the power strip and fires up an entire room of pins with one click. Here it is...great product:

amazon.com link »

#250 1 year ago

Get a wifi plug and Alexa

"Alexa turn on ghostbusters"

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