Stern NEW policy - GHOSTING IS NORMAL....OR IS IT?

(Topic ID: 194604)

Stern NEW policy - GHOSTING IS NORMAL....OR IS IT?


By capguntrooper

1 year ago



Topic Stats

  • 839 posts
  • 224 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 months ago by leonml
  • Topic is favorited by 24 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Are Cloudy inserts, stress cracks and GHOSTING often seen on NIB pins and should that be normal?”

  • NO WAY ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! 594 votes
    77%
  • YES, ghosting is often seen on NIB pins and is normal. 45 votes
    6%
  • I don't care I am never buying a NIB from STERN again 135 votes
    17%

(Multiple choice - 774 votes by 748 Pinsiders)

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There are 839 posts in this topic. You are on page 17 of 17.
12
#801 1 year ago

Chambahz, I hope Stern gives you some Stern Army jacket patches for your defense efforts on their behalf. Maybe a stick-pin button at least.

#802 1 year ago
Quoted from Rum-Z:

Chambahz, I hope Stern gives you some Stern Army jacket patches for your defense efforts on their behalf. Maybe a stick-pin button at least.

1962592_334531546707152_2787885267848887757_n (resized).jpg

#803 1 year ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Seriously? You're trying to say that you're not CONSTANTLY bashing Stern? You're one of the worst ones on Pinside for that.

Cap can defend himself but to be fair. He's had nothing but issues with the games he's bought from Stern. Some were resolved from Stern after him fighting with them while some other issues have not. Based off his actual experience with his games and the service he's received from Stern I feel he has every right to speak negatively about their products when he feels it necessary. Inappropriate bashing to me is when someone talks bad about something they have no direct experience with but if you have direct experience (not hear say) then that door is open.

#804 1 year ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Seriously? You're trying to say that you're not CONSTANTLY bashing Stern? You're one of the worst ones on Pinside for that.
And thank you for putting words in my mouth, but I've never said that Stern can do no wrong. What I've said that nearly always, they step up and fix their mistakes. We've seen them replace GuerillaBiscuit's playfield.
It's what I was hoping would continue to happen even after reading the new paragraph that you started this thread about.
I am hopeful that will continue but no, nobody knows if that will happen or not.
For rehashing the Ghostbusters playfield thread: you're pathetic.
Go back and re-read that thread. If you think I was picking a date out of thin air, just hoping that I was right, you're even more of a piece-of-work than I think you are. If you'll notice, there were approximately 2 (give or take) more ghostbuster playfield issues after the date I drew in the sand. Lucky? If you say so.
Regarding your comments about the $100 donation: you appear to have been a little too excited when typing that out. Not sure what you're trying to say. If you're trying to one-up me, just because you're donating to a good cause, be my guest. Donations are good. You're still a Stern-bashing troll, offering little evidence, and not even acknowledging Sterns good effort of replacing the ghosted playfield.
Either way, let's all hope that they continue to keep up this practice.

Out of curiosity what's your take on my METLE issue? I assume you are talking about me with the splintered shooter lane. Did you read the 6 month back-and-forth with Patrick? Thoughts?

#805 1 year ago
Quoted from Rum-Z:

Chambahz, I hope Stern gives you some Stern Army jacket patches for your defense efforts on their behalf. Maybe a stick-pin button at least.

Thanks for being a dick!
I don't want anything from Stern, with the exception of a fully operational pin when I pay for one.
I have found some issues from time to time, but Stern has always backed me 100%.

#806 1 year ago
Quoted from MinusWorlds:

Out of curiosity what's your take on my METLE issue? I assume you are talking about me with the splintered shooter lane. Did you read the 6 month back-and-forth with Patrick? Thoughts?

Yeah, I agree whole-heartedly with you on that. Poor customer service.
I think that your email chain is helpful to Pinsiders. It shows that if you're not getting a reply in a timely manner, it's time to change channels and get someone else involved.
I never saw pics of your Met, so hard for me to agree that it was worthy of a playfield replacement, but the lack of follow up on Sterns part was not cool.

I can see why you're not supportive of them or their customer service. That said, it's one of the very few examples of Stern dropping the ball that I have heard of.

Your comments are completely warranted in my opinion, and serve to help educate potential buyers on what they might be getting into. Having said that, there are dozens of Pinsiders who are screaming bloody murder, without any issues, making Stern appear far worse then they ought to be.

In the grand scheme of things, if people were clear about why they are complaining, I think Pinside would be a better place. Complaining about a new paragraph in the warranty section is ridiculous. Seeing how Stern reacts to future ghosting play fields is what's important.

#807 1 year ago
Quoted from 85vett:

Cap can defend himself but to be fair. he's had nothing but issues with the games he's bought from Stern. Some were resolved from Stern after him fighting with them while some other issues have not. Based off his actual experience with his games and the service he's received from Stern I feel his has every right to speak negatively about their products when he feels it necessary. Inappropriate bashing to me is when someone talks bad about something they have no direct experience with but if you have direct experience (not hear say) then that door is open.

And if that's the case, it is what it is. But then let's see what the issues are. That's good info for other Pinsiders with similar issues, or potential buyers to consider.
The problem I have, is that there are so many people complaining about stuff they really aren't suffering from.

I don't defend ghosting inserts, saying they're no big deal. I'm saying that although some have gone out, Stern seems to be replacing them, as they did before that extra paragraph was included. If they stop doing that, I'll be out as well, depending on whether the ghosting is minute, or what I consider a big deal on a pin in my collection.

#808 1 year ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Yeah, I agree whole-heartedly with you on that. Poor customer service.
I think that your email chain is helpful to Pinsiders. It shows that if you're not getting a reply in a timely manner, it's time to change channels and get someone else involved.
I never saw pics of your Met, so hard for me to agree that it was worthy of a playfield replacement, but the lack of follow up on Sterns part was not cool.
I can see why you're not supportive of them or their customer service. That said, it's one of the very few examples of Stern dropping the ball that I have heard of.
Your comments are completely warranted in my opinion, and serve to help educate potential buyers on what they might be getting into. Having said that, there are dozens of Pinsiders who are screaming bloody murder, without any issues, making Stern appear far worse then they ought to be.
In the grand scheme of things, if people were clear about why they are complaining, I think Pinside would be a better place. Complaining about a new paragraph in the warranty section is ridiculous. Seeing how Stern reacts to future ghosting play fields is what's important.

See guys he can be objective!

As far as the damage. I've had around 10-11 games total. I've had 6 Sterns. I have been around a ton of pins. I have never seen a shooter lane splintering. The clear was coming out in chunks. I guess I could have been more aggressive but I only got to the pins every couple of months so it wasn't this huge pressing for me at the time.

Several people have said I should have been more aggressive. Lesson learned. However, IMO, if Stern really cared they would have made it right. Not make me feel like I am a nuisance just to shaft me in the end.

#809 1 year ago

Hey gang:

Please tone down the personal attacks and rhetoric against each other. You can disagree with each other without name calling.

This is a tough subject addressed in this thread with strong feelings on all sides. Let's stay respectfully and civil.

I make this post in lieu of any moderations for broken record or personal attacks. I or another mod will issue moderations if we must return to this thread. Thank you.

#810 1 year ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Hey gang:
Please tone down the personal attacks and rhetoric against each other. You can disagree with each other without name calling.
This is a tough subject addressed in this thread with strong feelings on all sides. Let's stay respectfully and civil.
I make this post in lieu of any moderations for broken record or personal attacks. I or another mod will issue moderations if we must return to this thread. Thank you.

Thanks! It will be nice to get back on topic without the annoying personal attacks.

#811 1 year ago
Quoted from capguntrooper:

Thanks! It will be nice to get back on topic without the annoying personal attacks.

On topic:

2400 plays and the sliver has not gotten worse. It's the only ghosting insert.

Should Stern replace the play field?

20170908_104038 (resized).jpg

#812 1 year ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Route it for a year, then swap in a brand new playfield if you're "lucky" enough to have serious ghosting. A year of playfield/mech wear and tear instantly vanishes, and you get a bit more on resale down the line when the game is no longer earning well.

All very well and good except....

I will likely route it for 3-5 years, unless the playfield falls apart. After that time it would be unreasonable and irrational to expect a new playfield.

I may be an asshole, but I'm not THAT asshole.

#813 1 year ago
Quoted from smokedog:

2400 plays and the sliver has not gotten worse. It's the only ghosting insert.
Should Stern replace the play field?

I'll be super happy if my replacement ends up with just a minor one like yours

I believe something like that is why the new wording is in there. I do think it's silly they added it because they never covered playfields in the wording to begin with.

#814 1 year ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

And if that's the case, it is what it is. But then let's see what the issues are. That's good info for other Pinsiders with similar issues, or potential buyers to consider.

He hasn't started to many threads but most of them have been helpful threads on how to fix things on games he's owned. He's even gone as far as making parts to fix games and selling them to pinsiders (for pretty cheap) to help them get their games working better. Below you can find those threads.

https://pinside.com/pinball/community/pinsiders/capguntrooper/forum/topics

Quoted from Chambahz:

The problem I have, is that there are so many people complaining about stuff they really aren't suffering from.

That part I will agree with. I think it's peoples fear and passion coming together. I'll put myself in that boat. I desperately want to buy a new game but between the increased costed and the (at least presumed) drop in quality I just can't bring myself to placing the order. I feel I'm a pretty good example as I've owned mostly Stern games and my current collection is 100% Stern. All my older games have been perfect but my most recent game (GOTLE) tested my patience for months until I finally got all the bugs worked out of it.

#815 1 year ago
Quoted from smokedog:

On topic:
2400 plays and the sliver has not gotten worse. It's the only ghosting insert.
Should Stern replace the play field?

Ducking for cover but IMHO the answer is no. If that is all that is wrong and it doesn't grow worse over time that to me is an acceptable imperfection and not one that merits a new PF. If that was my game and it bugged me (probably would because I'm some what OCD) I would give Stern a call, tell them about it and be polite about it and see their stance. If they gave me a small discount on a topper, blades, rails, etc it would 99.9% satisfy me just because it would show a token of appreciation of me as a customer of theirs. If they offered nothing I'd still be happy (assuming I like the game) but would effect the decision for my next purchase.

#816 1 year ago
Quoted from smokedog:

On topic:
2400 plays and the sliver has not gotten worse. It's the only ghosting insert.
Should Stern replace the play field?

No I wouldn't expect them to replace that playfield.

#817 1 year ago

Ill ask again. Can you not buy a PF from Stern to install at a later date?

#818 1 year ago
Quoted from zr11990:

Ill ask again. Can you not buy a PF from Stern to install at a later date?

You used to be able to order them through your distributor. Not sure if that's still the case.

#819 1 year ago
Quoted from zr11990:

Ill ask again. Can you not buy a PF from Stern to install at a later date?

I think it depends.

I tried buying a GOT LE playfield, they have none for sale. They are running more only to cover playfield defects.

1 week later
#820 1 year ago

Just found a ghosting insert on my new in box ST pro. Produced in May 2016. 165 plays, three weeks since purchase

#821 1 year ago

Honestly if it's just one don't sweat it. If my replacement SW play field only has one I'll die a happy man

#822 1 year ago
Quoted from GorillaBiscuits:

Honestly if it's just one don't sweat it. If my replacement SW play field only has one I'll die a happy man

Agreed.

I believe a playfield with only one ghosted insert is about as good as you can expect from Stern these days.

#823 1 year ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

Just found a ghosting insert on my new in box ST pro. Produced in May 2016. 165 plays, three weeks since purchase

Where there is one there will be more. My Kiss LE was untouched for the better part of a year and upon my return from deployment I had four ghosting inserts, add the chipping shooter lane and chipping out hole, then it becomes a problem for most everyone. So you can either don't worry about it now, or worry about it down the road when more appear. You can take the "advice" of people here on what you should do, but at the end of the day you are the one who owns it. That said, if it were my game I would start a dialogue with your distributor.

#824 1 year ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

I think it depends.
I tried buying a GOT LE playfield, they have none for sale. They are running more only to cover playfield defects.

That really blows. I guess they don't want you just installing a new pf to make a beat game new again. They want you to spend a fortune on a new pos game.

#825 1 year ago

Heres a pic of my HS2 playfield clearcoated by Playfield Renovations back in 2005. It started initially as a NOS playfield I bought from Ebay.
Not a single sign of ghosting until a few months ago. I blame it on changes in surrounding temp and humidity as the playfield was stored in a drive-up (non-climate controlled) storage as cab was worked on. Before then it was in the cab and normally used.

Stern is seriously screwing with you people.

21706673_1649449475129784_409376094_o (resized).jpg

#826 1 year ago
Quoted from MarcelG:

Heres a pic of my HS2 playfield clearcoated by Playfield Renovations back in 2005. It started initially as a NOS playfield I bought from Ebay.
Not a single sign of ghosting until a few months ago. I blame it on changes in surrounding temp and humidity as the playfield was stored in a drive-up (non-climate controlled) storage as cab was worked on. Before then it was in the cab and normally used.
Stern is seriously screwing with you people.

Ouch. That's a damn shame.

-1
#827 1 year ago

People still don't understand how caustic and dangerous the old clear coat chemicals were in terms having proper facilities required for application curing playfield in the racks.

Some chemicals used in the past are outright cancerous when inhaled with fumes while applied and still wet. Full ventilation and respiratory protection required at all times. Proper drying sealed rooms required, not a paint booth. I am not talking about single or a couple playfields simultaneously but hundreds. This resulted in direct changes with the EPA, just what changed regarding use of lead in solder.

This then resulted in less than optimal changes to a consumer (tuffcoat,lacquers, clear coats), and one of my discussed factors of change within the pinball industry.

Here is a little tip from an old pinball restorer:
Don't re clear coat over existing NOS clear coat playfields unless the previous clear coat is fully removed, which is difficult, if not impossible without paint removal based on chemical bonding.
Don't clear coat over mylar either.
Re clearing is completely unnecessary anyway from the factory, simply added cost, and provides no benefit other than to make it "shinier" unless there were major factory imperfections from the start, which is a different reason altogether.
This is just asking for issues "down the road", including separation layers between existing coatings around inserts, including ghosting as shown above by the HSII.
If this had been left completely alone, the game would not have had the problems, which I can attest based on the 3X HSII I have owned, and the last one I still own.
This is no different than people that remove mylar from games that are decades old, no matter the method.
The mylar was added for a reason.

There are reasons WHY clear coats were THIN from BLY/WMS/GTB/AGC/DE/Sega in 1990s, and it was not because they wanted "playfields to wear out quicker", but the ability to provide BETTER QA in application and QC in materials. Take care of your games, and don't think "improvements" are always the best option.

#828 1 year ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

People still don't understand how caustic the old clear coat chemicals were in terms having proper facilities required for application. Some used in the past were outright cancerous when inhale with fumes and while wet. Full ventilation and respiratory protection required. Proper drying rooms required. This resulted in direct changes with the EPA. This then resulted in less than optimal changes to a consumer, and one of my discussed factors.

They are or were indeed extremely dangerous. Many of the better private CC guys in the guitar world had to retire because of lung damage as any failure in your mask would allow it to go right to your lungs.

That said, I've yet to hear of a pinball restorer say that his favorite blend is now banned by the EPA and he has to go with a safer but chip-prone brand. That would seem to make sense seeing as the new coatings by all the companies seem to have less adhesion and chip easily at the edges. Yet none have complained about it and one said there has been no "ban" of what he has always used. So there have been conflicting stories on this but since I am pretty much out of the NIB thing I haven't been motivated to research it.

Maybe you can list the brands and compositions that were "banned" by the EPA and when it occurred? And if there was a "ban" on stuff used just five years ago what do people have to choose from these days?

I figure with your interest in the hobby you've probably done the legwork on this and can be specific. I don't ask this to be challenging or confrontational but there is a dearth of *specific* information on what is available and allowed... water-based or oil-based, etc... that kind of thing.

This wouldn't be the "common sense" droning I complain about over here and would shut me up. That's always a plus

#829 1 year ago
Quoted from MarcelG:

Heres a pic of my HS2 playfield clearcoated by Playfield Renovations back in 2005. It started initially as a NOS playfield I bought from Ebay.
Not a single sign of ghosting until a few months ago. I blame it on changes in surrounding temp and humidity as the playfield was stored in a drive-up (non-climate controlled) storage as cab was worked on. Before then it was in the cab and normally used.
Stern is seriously screwing with you people.

That is such a shame. Our HS2 started like that (your photo) and then the clear chipped around the inserts. I am fairly sure that this issue is fairly common on HS2 as I have seen many (most originals) like this, including ours. I do remember clear coat chipping on brand new B/W games around the early 90's. Thanks very much for sharing your photos.

#830 1 year ago

who the hell said don't reclear over old clear? It's impossible to remove. there is no way around it. That's not the best advice. I know zaccaria clear is kind of dangerous and should be only wet sanded with good ventilation. WPC and such, I clear over diamond plate almost daily. There isn't any other option.

i've been using the same clear now for around 11 years, and I still have full access to it, with no hint of it going away anytime soon. If EPA put out some regulations that limit access to certain types of clear, I have not heard about it, nor am I effected by it.

#831 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

who the hell said don't reclear over old clear? It's impossible to remove. there is no way around it. That's not the best advice. I know zaccaria clear is kind of dangerous and should be only wet sanded with good ventilation. WPC and such, I clear over diamond plate almost daily. There isn't any other option.

I believe that was the Black Knight. I was wondering about that too.

Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

Here is a little tip from an old pinball restorer:
Don't re clear coat over existing NOS clear coat playfields unless the previous clear coat is fully removed.

#832 1 year ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

I believe that was the Black Knight. I was wondering about that too.

no he said an old restorer said. That's what I was asking.

#833 1 year ago

I am really curious going forward how the playfield quality will be. My Aerosmith Pro is perfect to the T. I would like to hear from people buying the AC/DC Vault Premiums or Star Wars Premiums coming soon.

#834 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

who the hell said don't reclear over old clear? It's impossible to remove. there is no way around it. That's not the best advice. I know zaccaria clear is kind of dangerous and should be only wet sanded with good ventilation. WPC and such, I clear over diamond plate almost daily. There isn't any other option.
i've been using the same clear now for around 11 years, and I still have full access to it, with no hint of it going away anytime soon. If EPA put out some regulations that limit access to certain types of clear, I have not heard about it, nor am I effected by it.

Yeah thank you. I get tired of reading these "EPA made them use water-based clear" conjectures.

Somehow I figured TBK wouldn't be able to answer any *specific* questions. It's easier to drone on with endless old RGP info for the newcomers. And some seem to appreciate it thankfully.

And I didn't want to pile on commenting about that nonsensical "always remove the previous CC" advice. It's painfully clear he doesn't know much about it as you'd remove the art in the process. Not to mention guys like yourself, CH and Bill Davis having been doing for decades with no notable ghosting issues, etc.

I just sold a NOS SS PF that was cleared by Bill Davis over 17 years ago. Still looked perfect with zero ghosting and not even any "woodgraining" (which Vid claims HAS to happen).

That's the problem with self appointed "experts" in any hobby. Much of what they say is incorrect but they state it as "fact" anyways.

Still I've been told he's a nice guy in person so that's something anyways...

Guard your lungs Neo! Once you hurt 'em it's over.

#835 1 year ago

i'm fully aware that my job will probably kill me in the end. I do what I can, but i'm sure it will catch up to me sooner or later.

Ghosting is hit or miss. I've seen ghosting in all playfields done by every restorer. It's something we cannot control. We can get rid of it if it happens to a point. But there is nothing we can do to keep it from possibly coming back. Types of plastic and shape of the inserts does have a huge factor if they are prone to ghosting more than others.

#836 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

no he said an old restorer said. That's what I was asking.

Ah, I thought he was the old restorer. Don't know much about The Black Knight so maybe that wouldn't fit him.

#837 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

i'm fully aware that his job will probably kill me in the end. I do what I can, but i'm sure it will catch up to me sooner or later.
Ghosting is hit or miss. I've seen ghosting in all playfields done by every restorer. It's something we cannot control. We can get rid of it if it happens to a point. But there is nothing we can do to keep it from possibly coming back. Types of plastic and shape of the inserts does have a huge factor if they are prone to ghosting more than others.

Thank you for your honesty and taking the time to post in this thread.

#838 12 months ago

Stern was hacked see link for details and how to safe guard your computer and identity.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-hacked-do-not-open-invoice-emails-from-stern#post-3975943

4 months later
#839 7 months ago

Automotive clear doesn't belong on wood or plastic. It was made for cars. If it was meant for wood, then antiques would be cleared with it, or at least new furniture would. Problem is, most clear meant for wood probably wouldn't stick to inserts any better, and wood clear has qualities that work fine with furniture but not pinball machines, such as yellowing, and yes some actually brown over time to deepen the color of the wood grain etc, again, not what you want from a pinball machine.

Demand pinball machines step into this century, whereas they use composite materials that can easily look like wood in a shooter lane, as well as not using inserts for lenses for colored lighting. the composite playfield would be a solid sheet and where you want lights, there would be a clear colored section within the image, the rest of the image would be solid color. Insert/ lighted pf areas could be endless shapes and size.
we're going to continue to have issues until someone makes the efforts to revolutionize the hobby. Hell cabinets should be of durable composite materials, not glued wood with decals.

Poly in motorcycle windshield can handle scouring with steal wool and is extremely shatter proof. For example.

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