What I am saying is that if there was no movement at the inserts edges, than there would be zero ghosting. My thinking is that if the wood behaved as the plastic insert does, no problems. It doesn't. I have to think that the plastic is dimensionally more constant than wood in this instance. There is a microscopic sinking of the insert which is caused by the surrounding wood. Heck, maybe it's too much glue.

I was wondering the other day if the ink was an issue. We never see a unsert ghosting feom the middle. I have seen bw games with middle ghost inserts but never a stern. Coukd the ink factor into the problem?

B/W games absolutely BLOW from a SOUND and LIGHTING perspective compared to the pins today.

So, while i love mine, i don't play them nearly as much because of the above.

So you guys can take those tanks and shove it. Nobody cares.

I don't give a F what the inserts look like (CV, Totan, etc.) I want NEW stuff. Knock yourselves out.

Kind of an abrasive post

Really ? My b/w sound just as good and the lighting in most cases (with leds) is just as good if not better than some of my sterns or prior sterns? Some of the new spike games are stupid bright and very very annoying/destacting imo.

What's your point? Don't get it?

Wow, mine aren't, what did you do to yours!

If you think you can recreate the lighting and sound in an old B/W pin versus what we have today then there is no hope for you.

I'll take your WhiteWater, Ice. I'll PM you the shipping address. Thanks!

One day, Warren will get his sound update out to the pinball world hopefully! That will be a great thing for the hobby.

Rick the D..K is finally not running the PPR media.

In all fareness i know what iceman44 i stalking about the incadescent lighring on bw games kinda sucked.

Mind you its what they had to work with at the time. Even then, stern now adds spotlights above the slings to better illumate the playfield.

Lighring is the least of my issues on new stern games... Its the dumbing down of features and increased pricing. Code on the last few releases have been above what i expected....is it good? Tough call but i can see them making an effort on that front. (Exclude kiss in the above statement)

Cajun,

We have already answered the f ing question posed in this thread!

It's NOT F ing normal so now we need to compare and contrast. Simple as that.

Wow.

And this is "normal"!

And you're still buying?

I would guess the inserts themselves are too smooth since the clear seems to be loosing its ability to adhere to them. I would think the solution would be as simple as making sure the entire playfield gets a good scuffing from some steel wool or the like before it is shot with the clear coat.

-Jeff

The entire playfield is drum sanded prior to artwork being applied.

It's good to have ice back. I thought someone must have hijacked his account. Looks like he is back on track.

Well...they DID take care of him. I've been VERY lucky with my GOT playfield. But if I said I wasn't nervous about SWLE, I'd be lying.

You damn right T Daddy and your Hot Momma! Time to F ing rock and roll and get excited about something other than a ghosted insert.

Yeh, they looked after me on GB also, but that was severe chipping in inserts after ghosting. And I appreciate they did. But 3 games!! I'd be sick of it.

And there's clearly something wrong. You can't just define it as normal and ignore it.

My feeling is Stern are just buying time until they figure out what's going on. They've changed the process (new supplier/in house production), it hasn't been as easy as they thought, but they can't stop the whole production line until they work it out.

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All I can say is they are standing behind their product and are taking a financial hit in doing so.

If they don't stand behind their products, they lose customers. Thus, lose money.

If they do stand behind their products, they replace fully populated playfields. Thus, they lose money.

If they don't fix their problems, then they'll only have the operator market to work with. Pro machines is what pays all the bills. Premium/LE is what pays Gary's bonus.

So how long will Stern honor the the playfield warranty? I bought my GOT NIB in early 2016 and never noticed the insert ghosting until people here on Pinside pointed it out. Currently I have 5 inserts that have ghosting present. Some worse than others. 1 is very slight and the "lock" being the worst. If you run your finger over the inserts that have ghosting I can feel a slight difference in insert to playfield height. They are not flush. The insert seems lower. This is causing me some concern in that over time this will become worse. What is the criteria for playfield replacement? I'll probably give Melissa from Cointaker a call next week and see what she has to say as well.

That sucks. I hear Cointaker is a great distributor though so definitely call them. Hope you get a replacement, sounds like you deserve one....good luck!

yes. Remember, we stated how playfields are made. All inserts are inserted and glued in. Then they are sent through a plainer which sands off about 1/16-1/8" off the top of the field to make it flat, level the inserts to the playfield and scuff the playfield to get ready for screen printing so the ink sticks. Then it's screen printed. Then cleared.

So i'll repeat this for the 10th time in this thread alone. The reason it ghosts at the edges is because.........wait for it..........wait............wait for it........... Because of the Wood, expanding and contracting to the edges of the plastic insert. *Gasp*. So here we go again. Lets review.

Expanding and contracting of the wood
Plastic insert does not expand and contract
There for, creating a fault line on the edges of the insert. Allowing air to sneak in the back, up under the clear. and......>TA-DAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. Ghost pocket.

Now factors that can cause and accelerate this process. are.

Humidity and temp changes
Insert cutout too large allowing slop in the insert
Insert cutout too small allowing the insert to be forced upwards
Shrinking of the insert from the plastic shrinking (takes years and decades for this to happen)
insert made to the wrong spec and made to small or too large
silicone somehow got on the playfield
gremlins snuck into the factory and started banging on the inserts from the backside with a drill bit and a hammer.

If this expansion and contraction is now a known issue. HIDE IT WITH DARK ART OR KEYLINE IN FUTURE GAMES OR THE NEW RUNS

Frankly speaking...

All of you supporting Stern price increases, and quality tanking are still going to hump the Stern train, and they thank you for this (aside from the cancer they call you).

They know this, and you know this. The day I flipped a Transformer's playfield up, and saw what Stern has become, I've shuddered, laughed, and thought....you reap what you sow.

Ah ha. You might be onto something.

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If you have playfield issues, take pictures and contact your distributor.

You as an individual have no power with Stern, unless you've developed a rapport with Pat or Chas.

Your distributor, who buys probably thousands of games a year, has power with Stern.

Now, I agree to a point with what you are saying but there the problems Stern is having did not happen with W/B games so what is being done differently. I have also never seen ghosting on a restored pf except the AFM I got from you. Stern is doing something wrong and I'll bet you a beer it has something to do with them being so fucking cheap. It doesn't matter though because people will still line up to buy them and make excuses for them like a parent enabling a ill behaved child. People with more money than me. I guess I'm glad that I like me the shit W/B games because that is what I have and they will probably outlast me. Can you say that for any of the newt Stern games?

Many issues with paint these days are down to environmental issues. Some paints are far superior to those available "back in the day" while others are no where near as good.

This could well be partly the issue with the ghosting problems?

Do "you" (meaning those asking) really believe that Stern is 'cheaping out' and doing things like this deliberately? I don't think so.

My exact reason for voting NO as well, I also have 30year old + machines with years of abuse and hard play with no ghosting or cracking, just a half assed cop out to save money and up the profit margin. just greed and poor quality, but that's just my opinion.

Already on it. Stern NIB? Nope.

I'm not convinced it's the wood. Plywood is extremely stable unless it's exposed to moisture, which can affect the glue holding the layers together. But you'd need a lot of moisture for that to happen, especially in a short period. If it were solid wood, I'd definitely think it was a factor, but that isn't the case. There is more that likely some kind of residue on the inserts causing a reaction and the clear to separate.

Unless the wood is not completely dry then they are sealing the moisture in with the clear?

After I had the game for about 2 weeks:

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At least 5k plays later:

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I can only tell that the lannister one has gotten a bit worse. I hope this helps. Take pics now and let distro know if it gets worse.

Nope. Haven't asked for one either. Can't bring myself to stop playing it to care. Haha

To be honest I don't feel my game warrants a replacement as I don't feel my playfield is damaged. If I had art ripped off the playfield and it was worn to the wood after this many plays, then yeah I would've asked for a replacement because I don't think a well maintained game should ever experience that type of damage.

But I understand others' frustrations. I'm a player first and a collector second. I honestly would be afraid that my new playfield wouldn't play like this one. Haha.

So I just continue to clean and wax this with regularity and enjoy it. If I sell it (doubtful), and the market considers this worthless due to the ghosting, I'll just keep it or throw it on route if I need the room. Get my money back that way. Shrugs.

Other manufacturers in the past have use materials other than wood for playfields. Multimorphic has a glass playfield. There are people who have used a full playfield mylar kit. Maybe it is time to use something other than wood for a playfield. It will last longer and maybe save money for the pinball company in the long run. Especially if it is the wood that is causing the problems.

Now I'm going to have look at my GOT LE and see if it has it. Was this widespread on GOT LEs?

considering I restore playfields for a living and have been a professional restorer for around 11 years now. I can tell you, that i've seen every single B/W clearcoated title with ghosting in some form or another. Every single game. Doesn't matter if it's T2, GI, AFM, NGG, MB, JM, DM, RFM, MM, every single one. Seen it out of DE and Sega as well. Even capcom. I've seen it on CPR fields, and HEP fields. It's unavoidable.

Remember air humidity and extreme temp changes from being shipped around the country can be a contributing factor. Even if the plywood flexes .5 mm, if air can seep in from behind. You will get it. But it is true they could be using a new type of glue, that is giving off gas way after it's hardened. Which would force an air pocket as well.

Not on mine. But Trekkie had an LE as well, I think. The benefit to having the LE with that game is all the inserts are clear, so it's harder to see.

I can back this up with firsthand knowledge as well.

Or put out a disclaimer that the issues are "normal".

I have an LE. Clearcoat on mine is perfect. Playfield warped.

I don't blame Stern for my playfield warping...they aren't the ones who created the plywood. Sometimes shit happens that is out of anyone's control.

True. We don't make the playfields we just restore or recoat them.
The insert ghosting is something that occurs below the surface of the work performed and it is a matter of how well the initial factory surface is bonded.
I have over 25 years experience as a autorefinisher coupled with 15 years restoring playfields and machines.
That stated I have learned to accept insert ghosting as out of my control even though it is disappointing.
As an auto refinisher we had two different methods for painting either metal or plastic.
Knowing that this is where I see the flaw in general playfield production.
The type of pretreatment and process needed for the lens/inserts should be different than the process for wood in theory because paints and coatings easily absorb into wood but they are much tougher to bond to plastic.
Plastic cleaners,and primers are made to deal with this and must be used for the best bond even if you cannot appreciate it at the time it is a longevity consideration.
With the lenses already in place before they are screened and coated there is no way there is an independent process for each surface.
Without a way to do or address that then it is always a bit of a gamble and there seem to be time periods where it is more problematic than others.
WPC 95 is a period for Williams and it looks like the latest run of Sterns is now that equivalent.

Yeap, I do.
They are probably squeezing their supplier to improve their margin... Causing the supplier to cheap out on materials or labor... Which is causing this problem

Mirco is NOT, repeat not doing Stern playfields.

Aerosmith oddly has near no issues. Only heard of 1 or 2 in the circles and it's minor.

Here is an LE with a decal front edge. The "font" is different from the past Churchill decals on my games so I doubt it's a Churchill. So this is interesting.

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A question for HEP:

Chuckwurt showed several pics of GOT inserts all with ghosting somewhere on the left side. In your opinion is that coincidental? I like and agree with your theory of plastic pretreatment vs wood but was just curious as to why in Chuck's case all the damage would be sustained on one side.

I am not really familiar with GOT gameplay or layout but my best guess is that there are more air balls on that side of the game or general use there.
The use and impacts are going to compromise the poor insert adhesion quicker than lighter use and little to no impact but even that is a broad statement because it could flex more in some places when pulled into service positions.
The main issue with all ghosted inserts is poor insert coating adhesion and it going to vary from game to game and playfield to playfield.