Stern NEW policy - GHOSTING IS NORMAL....OR IS IT?


By capguntrooper

8 months ago


Stats

  • 835 posts
  • 224 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 months ago by leonml
  • Topic is favorited by 24 Pinsiders

Find

Search this topic for posts matching certain words or written by a specific Pinsider. Or both!




Linked Games



Topic Gallery

There have been 56 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

21706673_1649449475129784_409376094_o (resized).jpg
20170908_104038 (resized).jpg
1962592_334531546707152_2787885267848887757_n (resized).jpg
mic (resized).jpg
IMG_6170 (resized).JPG
Stern CYA Policy.jpg
IMG_1386 (resized).JPG
20170903_193715 (resized).jpg
20170902_233821 (resized).jpg
20170902_233758 (resized).jpg
20170902_233719 (resized).jpg
20170902_233625 (resized).jpg
IMG_6111 (resized).JPG
IMG_4215 (resized).JPG
IMG_4214 (resized).JPG
IMG_3502 (resized).JPG


There are 835 posts in topic. You are on page 13 of 17.
#601 8 months ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

B/W games I call it fogging. And it wasn't the primer that caused it, it was the clear itself. Until the past 15 years or so. clear wasn't clear. It had a faint foggyness to it. Just the way the clear was. Todays technology clear is crystal clear. Trying to duplicate that foggyness is very difficult when you need to match chipped out clear on old b/w games.

Close. It's the primer that's below the silkscreened art. Tear a PF apart and you'll see...sand it down to the artwork. Sanding off the clear won't make the inserts clearer until you get beneath the art.

Or just look at EMs/SSs. Frosted, and they don't have clear on them at all.

Doesn't really matter, though - it's not a problem while ghosting may become a problem over time.

Ghosting, even being more or less expectable, is a defect. Something is coming apart.

Inserts are not frosted any more due to newer primer technology, so I do agree that it's technology that leads to this difference.

It would be interesting to know if the Stern PFs with problems are primed at all. Due to the clearness of the primer it would be very hard to tell. But that would explain a lot when it comes to lack of connection between plastic and clear.

12
#602 8 months ago

10 bucks and a beer says that they are not using primer and they are using the cheapest clear they can use. I have been saying for years that Gary Stern is the cheapest shyster ever and will screw you as hard as possible as long as you will bend over for it. People are finally seeing what I have been saying or at least some are. There are still people who cant see the forest for the trees and cant wait to bend over and take one up the pooper for the love of pinball. Pinball is fun but it doesn't mean that much to me to pay that kind of cash for a piece of shit that may not last a year. For fuck sakes, he wont even admit that there is a problem and he is still raising prices.

#603 8 months ago

I disagree, because that foggyness is over the art as well. Clearcoat was not clear in the 90's. could be a combination of both tho. Maybe primer and foggy clear.

And early SS games that used lacquer, are not foggy at all. Look nice and clear to me. you can see jeweling just fine on games that have jeweled inserts.

#604 8 months ago

Just look at a red Corvette from the 90s. They are pink. The clear turned cloudy very quickly.

#605 8 months ago
Quoted from zr11990:

I have been saying for years that Gary Stern is the cheapest shyster ever and will screw you as hard as possible as long as you will bend over for it.

Assuming he is still calling the shots, you're right.

#606 8 months ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Say what you will about Austin Powers, it is packed with features compared to today's games. It has a hidden bash toy reveal, a magnet that catches the ball from a ramp with a spinning time machine effect, a dancing character, a magnet divertor and a cannon.

This isn't a thread about features, it's a thread about build quality and DE/Sega/Stern games have *always been lower quality*. Always. The games themselves got better but they've always been as cheaply made as possible. The one Stern I have is probably one of their best efforts but it's still flimsy compared to my B/W games.

#607 8 months ago

Well plus Austin Powers could "afford" all those toys because they saved monies by doing the artwork in crayon.

-4
#608 8 months ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Well plus Austin Powers could "afford" all those toys because they saved monies by doing the artwork in crayon.

The pf art on AP just might be the worst all time. A 4 year old could do a better job. Someone had to be fired over that artwork...I mean, right?

#609 8 months ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

Someone had to be fired over that artwork...I mean, right?

haha I don't know...but they don;t even list an artist on ipdb

#610 8 months ago
Quoted from jwilson:

This isn't a thread about features, it's a thread about build quality and DE/Sega/Stern games have *always been lower quality*. Always. The games themselves got better but they've always been as cheaply made as possible. The one Stern I have is probably one of their best efforts but it's still flimsy compared to my B/W games.

I own one Stern. The highly underrated RBION. It is built very well and the quality is quite BW like.

I cannot comment on others

#611 8 months ago
Quoted from altan:

I own one Stern. The highly underrated RBION.

Tanks back then.

#612 8 months ago

I've owned a lot of Sterns over the years...they have all been incredibly reliable. My issues have really only been a ton of the Stern flipper buzzing (fairly easy to fix), my SM has some minor ghosting on a couple arrow inserts, and my LOTR registration was pretty bad (which I got a replacement pf sent to me that was slightly better but still not great, LOL). Still, Sterns are pretty rock solid. They are much more reliable than my Bally/Williams games I've owned. Granted, I haven't bought a recent Stern offering...not sure where/when the quality declined or if it is really as widespread as it seems to be, but can't deny that their games are incredibly stripped of features these days.

#613 8 months ago

» YouTube video

Quoted from skywalker:

Any pics to prove this statement please.

Churchill play field

Ghosting inserts and cracking clear in the shooter lane and out hole. This game also sat inside my house for two weeks before being played and a play field protector was installed, untouched by pinballs. the cracked clear happened in less than 200 plays. I went on deployment and after a year of the game not being played I inspected my KISS LE to find more than a few inserts ghosting just from sitting untouched. Sorry for the poor quality of video I also forgot to show the drum insert and super ramps insert ghosting which is under a ramp. Imagine 5 years from now what the game will look like. I hope Stern can figure this issue out because I like their machines, I am just not going to buy something IMHO that should not do what they are claiming now to be normal.

#614 8 months ago

Ok & thanks,
was hoping & fingers X'd the CH PF were rock solid, Well looks like something has changed in the PF process around KISS
any issues with TWD or Mustang?

I have a TWD pro with 5k++ plays & still looks new,
to see a CH PF like in the Vid is a real kick in the guts, Hopefully they can sort this issues out.

#615 8 months ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Well plus Austin Powers could "afford" all those toys because they saved monies by doing the artwork in crayon.

agreed

-2
#616 8 months ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

The pf art on AP just might be the worst all time. A 4 year old could do a better job. Someone had to be fired over that artwork...I mean, right?

How is it really any different than the artwork on BM66?

#617 8 months ago
Quoted from capguntrooper:

» YouTube video

Churchill play field
Ghosting inserts and cracking clear in the shooter lane and out hole. This game also sat inside my house for two weeks before being played and a play field protector was installed, untouched by pinballs. the cracked clear happened in less than 200 plays. I went on deployment and after a year of the game not being played I inspected my KISS LE to find more than a few inserts ghosting just from sitting untouched. Sorry for the poor quality of video I also forgot to show the drum insert and super ramps insert ghosting which is under a ramp. Imagine 5 years from now what the game will look like. I hope Stern can figure this issue out because I like their machines, I am just not going to buy something IMHO that should not do what they are claiming now to be normal.

glad I sold my kiss when I did - that’s crazy that a pf protector won’t even stop it.... WTF???

#618 8 months ago
Quoted from zr11990:

How is it really any different than the artwork on BM66?

Only a partially blind or inebriated person would say this.

#619 8 months ago
Quoted from skywalker:

Ok & thanks,
was hoping & fingers X'd the CH PF were rock solid, Well looks like something has changed in the PF process around KISS
any issues with TWD or Mustang?
I have a TWD pro with 5k++ plays & still looks new,
to see a CH PF like in the Vid is a real kick in the guts, Hopefully they can sort this issues out.

All my TWD's and customers have ZERO play field issues, I only have one customer with a mustang BOSS edition I think it is and it looks like glass, no dimples. He doesn't play it that much so it's not like it has been smoothed out over time. I think he bought it NIB.

#620 8 months ago

I do remember on my GB premium - built 2/2017 - I moved the outlanes in, and when I did, a little bit of clear kinda chipped or scraped off with the post on one side... thought it was normal considering I was yanking a threaded post out of a wood hole, but it never happened on any diamond playfields or really any other games but GB. They have definitely screwed up the clear somehow

-1
#621 8 months ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Only a partially blind or inebriated person would say this.

Yea your right. BM66 looks way better. I had to go take a look at it. I still don't care for it and the game is sooo boring to me. I do love everything about Aerosmith though. The PF, game play, rules, call outs are all awesome. That is a game I would buy if I had the money. Maybe when/of my business gets better.

#622 8 months ago

have you guys not been reading this thread or the other threads about ghosting? Why would anyone think a playfield protector or mylar is going to protect from ghosting? Ghosting has nothing to do with any of that. It's fluctuations in temp/humidity with wood vs plastic. Airbubbles under the clear. Shifting of the insert causes it. You can have a sheet of glass on top of the playfield, and if the plastic shifts...you are getting ghosting. Plain and simple.

#623 8 months ago
Quoted from mountaingamer:

...that’s crazy that a pf protector won’t even stop it.... WTF???

Is the PF protector supposed to magically glue the inserts in place or change the chemical characteristics between insert and clear?

I don't get how a protector would be able to help against ghosting.

EDIT: Didn't notice Neos post, so sorry for basically repeating it...

#624 8 months ago
Quoted from capguntrooper:

» YouTube video

Churchill play field
Ghosting inserts and cracking clear in the shooter lane and out hole. This game also sat inside my house for two weeks before being played and a play field protector was installed, untouched by pinballs. the cracked clear happened in less than 200 plays. I went on deployment and after a year of the game not being played I inspected my KISS LE to find more than a few inserts ghosting just from sitting untouched. Sorry for the poor quality of video I also forgot to show the drum insert and super ramps insert ghosting which is under a ramp. Imagine 5 years from now what the game will look like. I hope Stern can figure this issue out because I like their machines, I am just not going to buy something IMHO that should not do what they are claiming now to be normal.

thanks for this, my ghostbusters the same has happened, whilst not playing it for a while two inserts have Ghosted, shows that this is clearly something that Stern have failed to do right.

#625 8 months ago

I'm 3 for 3 in getting approvals for playfield replacements.

As of now, I've only swapped 1 playfield. At least the next 2 are SPIKE games...will be a hell of a lot easier.

#626 8 months ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Just a wild ass guess based on games over the past few years, but I think in pinball there are about 50 people that have enough money to buy every game that comes out, sight unseen and don't care about anything related to gameplay or quality. Seems like most every new game can sell 50, but sales after that take effort.

50 people?

They had 400+ people begging to buy a $15,000 BM66 SLE.

They presold 800 Star Wars LEs before the game was even announced.

There are waayyyyy more than 50 rich dudes in this hobby ...

rd

#627 8 months ago

Considering that Stern's revenue was up 40% in 2016 compared to 2015 We definitely have lowered are expectations. Why would Stern be accountable for the following: faulty cabinets, missing SD cards, playfield issues. When we continue to have a large number of consumers buying the machines no matter the issues.

#628 8 months ago

$1700 US more (Pro / Prem comparison) for an egg splitting open with a yolk in the middle, a hyperdrive and ball save and a lighted millennium falcon.

$1000 US more (Prem / Le comparison) for custom rails

I don't count the decal art or translite in the calculation because you need some on a game no matter what.

The video last night was so anticlimactic it's not even funny. The hyperdrive was cool but the death star... my god...what a let down...even if the lights would have worked. The ball save was added to perceive enhanced value but fails to deliver since their is already a ball save feature on the pro.

Overall I think Stern should stop concentrating on counting their dollars and give their head a shake. Seriously no one at Stern looked at these features and realize that their was a problem?

Edit: Oops just realized i posted in the wrong thread.... oh well

#629 8 months ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

I'm 3 for 3 in getting approvals for playfield replacements.
As of now, I've only swapped 1 playfield. At least the next 2 are SPIKE games...will be a hell of a lot easier.

You've been hit with ghosting bad enough for replacement 3 times? Ouch.

#630 8 months ago
Quoted from DeeGor:

You've been hit with ghosting bad enough for replacement 3 times? Ouch.

2 playfields ghosted and 1 playfield warped.

This is on 3 different machines.

#631 8 months ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

2 playfields ghosted and 1 playfield warped.
This is on 3 different machines.

And that's just a raw playfield replacement or a populated playfield?

#632 8 months ago

There are TWD with ghosting inserts.

#633 8 months ago
Quoted from rotordave:

50 people?
They had 400+ people begging to buy a $15,000 BM66 SLE.
They presold 800 Star Wars LEs before the game was even announced.
There are waayyyyy more than 50 rich dudes in this hobby ...
rd

I agree that there are way more rich dudes. I just meant that there are 50 people that will buy any game, regardless of manufacturer, theme, etc....

Of course Star Wars is going to sell gangbusters, because it's not just the handful of people that will buy *any* game. There are actually a lot of people who want Star Wars.

#634 8 months ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

have you guys not been reading this thread or the other threads about ghosting

I have - guess I figured ghosting hadn't been figured out yet by stern but was either the wood playfield moving, inserts plastics changed, inserts too tight or loose, bad glue, Pf's not sanded, not allowed to cure long enough, crappy cheap different clear, poor qc, or any combination of the above. If a steel ball was to impact a compromised insert maybe the impact would cause the clear to delaminate prematurely - thus my thinking a playfield protector might insulate the insert and allow the pf to cure longer without the ball impact stress.

Quoted from someoneelse:

Is the PF protector supposed to magically glue the inserts in place or change the chemical characteristics between insert and clear?
I don't get how a protector would be able to help against ghosting.

Not magic - more like a punch with a bare fist versus a punch with a 11oz glove - less impact = less damage was my thought

#635 8 months ago
Quoted from altan:

And that's just a raw playfield replacement or a populated playfield?

Populated.

#636 8 months ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

2 playfields ghosted and 1 playfield warped.
This is on 3 different machines.

Did you pick up one of these in Hawaii?

bad_luck_totem (resized).jpg

#637 8 months ago
Quoted from DeeGor:

Did you pick up one of these in Hawaii?

LOL

I'm not happy that Stern did something to their playfields, but at least they are standing behind their product.

That's 3 playfields where they need to ship me a box, pay for the heavy box to be returned, give me a new playfield that is fully populated and then ship it back to me. If I had to guess, it costs Stern probably $1,500 - $2,000 for each replacement playfield. Just that monetary hit alone is more than enough incentive for them to fix their playfield issues.

With my own business, I do everything I can to not mess up the first time, because it costs me money to go back.

#638 8 months ago

Stern could really be hurting soon, people talk, shit spreads like wild fire. My guess is they are hoping this just blows over and they change methods. I really want to see an AC/DC premium next month at my distributor. I will look over the floor model like a freak.

#639 8 months ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

Stern could really be hurting soon, people talk, shit spreads like wild fire. My guess is they are hoping this just blows over and they change methods. I really want to see an AC/DC premium next month at my distributor. I will look over the floor model like a freak.

The problem is not initial inspection, issues seem to be happening anywhere from a week to a year. No one wants a pinball that will have multiple ghosting inserts in a years time. I am glad Stern is taking care of my issue now but in less than a years time when ghosting inserts start appearing and people want replacements that are ranging in the hundreds I doubt that most will get replacements. Then again maybe they will. All in all, I would rather not have to deal with the head ache of doing the replacement in the first place as I am sure OP's do not want empty shells sitting on location.

#640 8 months ago
Quoted from mountaingamer:

I have - guess I figured ghosting hadn't been figured out yet by stern but was either the wood playfield moving, inserts plastics changed, inserts too tight or loose, bad glue, Pf's not sanded, not allowed to cure long enough, crappy cheap different clear, poor qc, or any combination of the above. If a steel ball was to impact a compromised insert maybe the impact would cause the clear to delaminate prematurely - thus my thinking a playfield protector might insulate the insert and allow the pf to cure longer without the ball impact stress.

Not magic - more like a punch with a bare fist versus a punch with a 11oz glove - less impact = less damage was my thought

if anything the playfield protector would make things worse, as it's not allowing the playfield to breathe. But that only matters if it was cleared 90 days or sooner before getting in the customers hands. Which is highly unlikely. These are usually done months before stern even sees them, then you have them sitting in manufacturing. Ball impact stress really doesn't do much to the ghosting issue. Only way it could, is if it pushed the insert down. but the way they are CAD cut. They really can't move down, but they can move up. It's more of the wood moving outwards that causes more than anything. The wood is what flexes, not the plastic. Plastic shrinks over the years, but it's a slow process.

#641 8 months ago
Quoted from capguntrooper:

The problem is not initial inspection, issues seem to be happening anywhere from a week to a year. No one wants a pinball that will have multiple ghosting inserts in a years time. I am glad Stern is taking care of my issue now but in less than a years time when ghosting inserts start appearing and people want replacements that are ranging in the hundreds I doubt that most will get replacements. Then again maybe they will. All in all, I would rather not have to deal with the head ache of doing the replacement in the first place as I am sure OP's do not want empty shells sitting on location.

I've got three inserts starting to ghost on my GB after six months (Dec. 2016 build) even though it was perfect at first. Doesn't look bad now, but wonder what will happen in a year or two. I reported it to Stern, so we'll see. I also had to fix and reinforce the cab that started to split. Seems fine now, but pretty disappointing for a new game. On the plus side, the game is fun as hell--warts and all.

IMG_5378 (resized).JPG

IMG_5380 (resized).JPG

#642 8 months ago

They probably changed the glue on the inserts, and are not letting it cure. They clear over it, and the glue outgasses causing the bubbles. I've got a TF that's what 6-7 years old now? No issues.

#643 8 months ago

The day I feel like I have to put a PF protector on my PF is the day I stop buying Nib pins

My goal is to play them enough to warrant getting the PF re cleared down the road. I doubt I can play all my pins enough in my lifetime to ever have to worry about that

#644 8 months ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

LOL
I'm not happy that Stern did something to their playfields, but at least they are standing behind their product.
That's 3 playfields where they need to ship me a box, pay for the heavy box to be returned, give me a new playfield that is fully populated and then ship it back to me. If I had to guess, it costs Stern probably $1,500 - $2,000 for each replacement playfield. Just that monetary hit alone is more than enough incentive for them to fix their playfield issues.
With my own business, I do everything I can to not mess up the first time, because it costs me money to go back.

My father always taught me : "do it once, do it right". Someone email mr Gary Stern that and CC me in the email.

#645 8 months ago
Quoted from Maken:

There are TWD with ghosting inserts.

That could only be current reruns, not originals or LE.

#646 8 months ago

My thinking is that problem lies in the wood of the playfield. The wood expands, contracts and the insert effectively sinks. If the wood were completely cured/dry, the ghosting would not occur.

#647 8 months ago
Quoted from D-Gottlieb:

My thinking is that problem lies in the wood of the playfield. The wood expands, contracts and the insert effectively sinks. If the wood were completely cured/dry, the ghosting would not occur.

I used to make furniture, still have all my equipment, and have some experience with finishing. I don't know exactly what the issue is but it may very well have to do with cure time. Whatever products they are using are not being allowed to cure before moving to the next step or are not curing in the right conditions (too much or too little humidity, for example).

It could also be a chemical reaction between products, especially if something changed. For example, they may be wiping/sanding between coats with something causing issues. The tiniest bit of silicone will kill adhesion. If you wax your table saw and that wax has silicon in it, kiss your wood goodbye.

Environmental issues may also be having an impact as more and more chemicals get watered down. Or Stern and/or its finisher cut back to save a few dollars.

What's interesting, however, is why JJP doesn't seem to have these issues. Presumably, the same or very similar products are being used, which leads me back to cure time or a change in their products and /or process.

If I buy a piece of furniture and it started to haze, crack, ghost, whatever, it would be going back to the store. Stern's policy is not very good and it's just not normal. Dimples, yes.

I keep my games in a temp controlled environment with temp around 70 and RH at 50% and thankfully haven't had issues so far.

#648 8 months ago

And temp variations could be another factor. Bottom line is this- Ghosting seems to always propagate from the border of the insert. If it were chemical incompatibility wouldn't it be occurring all over the playfield? Premature or green playfield wood is my guess.

#649 8 months ago
Quoted from D-Gottlieb:

And temp variations could be another factor. Bottom line is this- Ghosting seems to always propagate from the border of the insert. If it were chemical incompatibility wouldn't it be occurring all over the playfield? Premature or green playfield wood is my guess.

Better see a doc about that green wood

#650 8 months ago
Quoted from D-Gottlieb:

And temp variations could be another factor. Bottom line is this- Ghosting seems to always propagate from the border of the insert. If it were chemical incompatibility wouldn't it be occurring all over the playfield? Premature or green playfield wood is my guess.

I doubt it, it's plywood. There is an adhesion issue going on between the plastic inserts and the clear. That's a curing or chemical issue, it's not the wood. I don't know why it's not on every insert, but if it were the wood, it would be everywhere.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Madison, WI
From: $ 42.00
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 24.50
From: $ 35.00
Lighting - Interactive
Professor Pinball
From: $ 70.00
From: $ 14.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 69.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 149.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 11.99
$ 12.99
Cabinet - Decals
Bent Mods
$ 24.95
$ 10.00
Cabinet - Other
Chrome Candy
$ 99.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
From: $ 42.00
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 79.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 49.99
Lighting - Led
PinballBulbs
From: $ 42.00
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
ModFather Pinball Mods
4,400 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Cleveland, OH
$ 69.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 99.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 15.00
$ 119.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 91.00
$ 9.95
There are 835 posts in topic. You are on page 13 of 17.

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Sign up for a Pinside account, or log in if you already have an account.


Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside