Stern NEW policy - GHOSTING IS NORMAL....OR IS IT?

(Topic ID: 194604)

Stern NEW policy - GHOSTING IS NORMAL....OR IS IT?


By capguntrooper

1 year ago



Topic Stats

  • 839 posts
  • 224 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by leonml
  • Topic is favorited by 21 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Are Cloudy inserts, stress cracks and GHOSTING often seen on NIB pins and should that be normal?”

  • NO WAY ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! 597 votes
    77%
  • YES, ghosting is often seen on NIB pins and is normal. 45 votes
    6%
  • I don't care I am never buying a NIB from STERN again 135 votes
    17%

(Multiple choice - 777 votes by 751 Pinsiders)

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There are 839 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 17.
#1 1 year ago

As now stated in Stern's Star Wars manual Cloudy inserts, stress cracks and GHOSTING are often seen on NIB pins. I am curious if the pinside community agrees with this statement. Is the new "normal" going to be accepted by everyone? I vote NO, but others may have different opinions, which I am curious to know. What should be the new "NORMAL" when buying a NIB pin?

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88
#2 1 year ago

Does this mean no more playfield replacements if you find ghosting inserts? If so, no more NIB sterns for me.

11
#3 1 year ago

If your going to vote at least post in relation to your vote.

I voted NO, simple reason I have had games 20-30 years old with no ghosting and a lot of those had incandescent lamps under them and where ex route games so at some point those inserts got hot while the playfields got played hard. I have had a lot of older Sterns with no ghosting. Now recently its become a normal regular occurrence

65
#4 1 year ago

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that new CYA policy is gonna put a huge dent in NIB sales, especially to HUO owners like myself.

I voted NOT normal obviously and the attempt by Stern to try and make it normal is VERY concerning to me.

18
#5 1 year ago

Looks like Stern realized they can't count on the SLE crowd to pay for their sins moving forward.

#6 1 year ago

I would expect some ghosting on a machine that is twenty+ years old... But If people are buying NIB games and documenting ghosting over a few days there seems to be a problem. I agree there will be some who will not risk NIB due to this.

I was lucky with my early production GB, I had a small chip in the shooter lane, which I filled, applied mylar, and a cliffy. and it hasn't gotten worse, but I don't have the ghosting a lot of people posted. It sucks looming over a new 5-7k purchase wondering if you're going to be one of the unfortunate buyers.

I hope some of these other companies can get their feet planted and produce games at a quicker rate... Cough, JJp, Cough...

All companies have their problems, but stern seems to be leaning towards making excuses rather than address their issues...

27
#7 1 year ago

This policy is going to be a disaster for them. If I had seen this a few weeks ago, I'm not sure AC/DC VE would be in my gameroom.

Realistically we already knew this. A ghosted insert or two want going to get a playfield replaced. However stating it in a policy like this is just going to make people not want to play the Stern NIB playfield lottery.

#8 1 year ago

I'll take a SW pro in 2019 please

34
#9 1 year ago

Seems like ghosting is normal for Stern playfields but not for any other manufacturer!

39
#10 1 year ago

NIB ghosting inserts are the new normal? Next up - splitting cabinets and wrinkled peeling decals.

27
#11 1 year ago

This is Bullshit

46
#12 1 year ago

It will become new policy if people keep buying. If we stop buying, maybe they'll fix the problem, but for now, there are too many rabid fan boys throwing money at them. We are our own worst enemy.

97
#13 1 year ago

They missed out a paragraph.

'Code may or may not be updated after the release of a game. It is normal for some games to be abandoned.'

#14 1 year ago

Looks like Orwell's 1984 is now applicable to pinball manufacturing. SMH.

#15 1 year ago

3 yes votes but not one has said why they voted and think it is normal

#16 1 year ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

They missed out a paragraph.
'Code may or may not be updated after the release of a game. It is normal for some games to be abandoned.'

Damn you Shapeshifter, I now have to clean pop off of my screen!

10
#17 1 year ago

I had just switched to NIB only mentality with a GBLE... have ghosting on 4 inserts and premature damage to shooter lane and drain. No word on replacement from Stern.

I would have already bought a SW, but can no longer justify purchasing from Stern if they don't resolve my ghosted pf and if diminished pf quality is the new norm. Very unfortunate as I love their machines.

11
#18 1 year ago

I demand the 3 that voted yes show themselves. Gary I know you are one of them.

#19 1 year ago

100% bullshit. Stern doesn't care to fix the problem. They would rather pad their profits and fat wallets than put out a quality product.

I agree, why not add the paragraph about the code with the machine when you buy may be it, even if it's obvious that the code should be updated.

I would love to buy NIB from Stern, but it's not worth the risk. I'm surprised distributors haven't voiced their opinions, but I'm guessing they can't or they risk losing money.

#20 1 year ago

Just a guess: lost sales as a result of this policy will cost them LESS than if people bought them and then demanded a playfield swap (as per before the new policy).

#21 1 year ago
Quoted from andre060:

Just a guess: lost sales as a result of this policy will cost them LESS than if people bought them and then demanded a playfield swap (as per before the new policy).

I totally agree! Losing your customer base because you have a problem putting out quality playfields is definitely less expensive for Stern.

(Feel free to call it a straw man argument, but that's the direction it sounds like you argued)

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from DaveH:

I totally agree! Losing your customer base because you have a problem putting out quality playfields is definitely less expensive for Stern.
(Feel free to call it a straw man argument, but that's the direction it sounds like you argued)

Straw Man is referenced more on this site than possibly anywhere else in the world.

#23 1 year ago

They just need to correct the situation instead of adding another legal clause in the literature. They did not seem to have problems with ghosting inserts from 2001 to 2016(Ghostbusters)? Now it has carried over several titles? I can understand the dimpling clause(It would concern many new to the hobby and it is normal) but the insert is part of the overall build quality. It would be like going to a car dealership and them having a sticker on the window that says " Sorry clear-coat on this vehicle is subject to failure and your vehicle could start to rust without notice, it is a normal part of the production cycle" (Had to bring the cargument into this).

84
#24 1 year ago

Stern's manufacturing costs are at a record low.

Stern's profits are at a record high.

Stern's quality is continuing to decline.

People still standing in-line to buy NIB sight unseen.

WTF is wrong with you people?

12
#25 1 year ago

Well that makes up my mind on an AC/DC Vault, nope.

#26 1 year ago
Quoted from kell:

I had just switched to NIB only mentality with a GBLE... have ghosting on 4 inserts and premature damage to shooter lane and drain. No word on replacement from Stern.
I would have already bought a SW, but can no longer justify purchasing from Stern if they don't resolve my ghosted pf and if diminished pf quality is the new norm. Very unfortunate as I love their machines.

I love their pins too. In the same boat as you re GB PF. 2 inserts and chipping in drain hole.

Ok, not really a huge deal in grand scheme of things on a one off basis for me BUT it's a crusher when and if you go and try and sell it

Thought they had it resolved with my BM66 and AS. Great PFs

Really amazed to see this issue pop up again

They need to fix it BEFORE they ship more SW

I'm out of LE for now

#27 1 year ago
Quoted from capguntrooper:

Damn you Shapeshifter, I now have to clean pop off of my screen!

Wait..... You call soda "pop" in Ohio?!

I think this is complete bullshit. If you're selling L.E. and premium games to collectors, it should not be "normal" to receive crap in exchange for your high dollar cost.

12
#28 1 year ago

Stern can write whatever they want to cover their asses. Little do they realize they're writing their own demise.

#29 1 year ago
Quoted from J85M:

If your going to vote at least post in relation to your vote.
I voted NO, simple reason I have had games 20-30 years old with no ghosting and a lot of those had incandescent lamps under them and where ex route games so at some point those inserts got hot while the playfields got played hard. I have had a lot of older Sterns with no ghosting. Now recently its become a normal regular occurrence

Plastic inserts all have crazing,on older pins it was less noticable cause they had old skool bulbs.
Nowerdays these bright leds illuminate the stress cracks in the plastic..

And don't forget,the clear coat nowerdays is not the same quality clearcoat as 30 years ago,because people died inhaling that paint..
It sadly was way better clearcoat though...the proof?
No ghosting on the old skool pins.

I will never buy nib Stern again after the ghostbusters LE i bought...but just saying,if you were Stern you'd do the same...make it "clear" it in the warranty section.

Apparantly clearcoating is real difficult?
Else they'd use a different method?
But it's better than NO clearcoat like Gottlieb did...then your playfield graphics would come off..

Come on,let's talk about fun stuff.

#30 1 year ago
Quoted from pinmister:

They just need to correct the situation instead of adding another legal clause in the literature. They did not seem to have problems with ghosting inserts from 2001 to 2016(Ghostbusters)? Now it has carried over several titles? I can understand the dimpling clause(It would concern many new to the hobby and it is normal) but the insert is part of the overall build quality. It would be like going to a car dealership and them having a sticker on the window that says " Sorry clear-coat on this vehicle is subject to failure and your vehicle could start to rust without notice, it is a normal part of the production cycle" (Had to bring the cargument into this).

There were some thin spots in the topcoat on my van around edges and in little nooks and crannies when I bought it, better take that shit back to the dealer and throw a tantrum right? Nah. It's a mode of transportation that's going to be out on the road getting crap thrown at it all the time, not an art object. Color being a bit light in the crevices has no functional effect on the vehicle, it still does exactly what it's expected to and will last as long as anything else. I could be a stickler about it, sure, but if everyone did they'd have perfect color on every surface and cost a lot more because of increased production and QA costs. I don't have time to care about that, and I don't want the manufacturer to care about it (and pass the costs down to me) either.

A pinball machine is a big mess of electronics and mechanical devices designed to throw ball bearings around its insides at high speeds, which is inevitably going to cause some damage. Designed to sit in a bar and take abuse and make money, which they do even if every insert looked a little funny around the edges. Minor cosmetic defects from variations in manufacturing are a problem for people with way too much time on their hands and/or who are into pinball for the wrong reasons to worry about. It doesn't matter now, and it's not going to matter years down the road when these things have thousands of plays on them and normal wear and tear has made the ghosting look like... The non-issue it always was. Pinball machines are not an investment class. They are not fine art. They are mass produced interactive furniture for commercial applications.

#31 1 year ago

Oh heck no.

I was really hoping they would actually fix the ghosting issue. The other manufacturers don't seem to have this problem, and I have yet to see ghosting on anything other than a couple of CV pins.

#32 1 year ago

YES! We'll get a thicker manual again with our machines!
But really sad to see they are not capable to solve that problem. My other Sterns don't have ghosting, so I don't think it's normal.

#33 1 year ago

No it is not normal or acceptable by me because I am a picky B@stard! I want to keep buying new pins but I won't do it if they keep having ghosted inserts. Ever who made the AS playfields, I say please let that company make all of the playfields because their is clearly (no pun intended) a difference in quality.

#34 1 year ago

This is bad....

#35 1 year ago
Quoted from stumptown:

There were some thin spots in the topcoat on my van around edges and in little nooks and crannies when I bought it, better take that shit back to the dealer and throw a tantrum right? Nah. It's a mode of transportation that's going to be out on the road getting crap thrown at it all the time, not an art object.
A pinball machine is a big mess of electronics and mechanical devices designed to throw ball bearings around its insides at high speeds, which is inevitably going to cause some damage. Designed to sit in a bar and take abuse and make money, which they do even if every insert looked a little funny around the edges. Minor cosmetic defects from variations in manufacturing are a problem for people with way too much time on their hands and/or who are into pinball for the wrong reasons to worry about. It doesn't matter now, and it's not going to matter years down the road when these things have thousands of plays on them and normal wear and tear has made the ghosting look like... The non-issue it always was. Pinball machines are not an investment class. They are not fine art. They are mass produced interactive furniture for commercial applications.

Yeah,totally agree..
I get how everybody feels about that warranty sentence though.
Bit nasty.
But pinballs are build to make money and be beaten up,and they serve that purpose well..
Compare it to this:
If you have a nightmare on elm street,chances are,the playfield is bare wood at the flipper bat area.
Don't compare it to B/W:
Bally/Williams was a high quality company,they are gone and nothing today beats their quality guys...sad but true.

#36 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballrockstar:

But pinballs are build to make money

When they cost <$5k sure, not anymore.

#37 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballrockstar:

Yeah,totally agree..
I get how everybody feels about that warranty sentence though.
Bit nasty.
But pinballs are build to make money and be beaten up,and they serve that purpose well..
Compare it to this:
If you have a nightmare on elm street,chances are,the playfield is bare wood at the flipper bat area.
Don't compare it to B/W:
Bally/Williams was a high quality company,they are gone and nothing today beats their quality guys...sad but true.

Yeah, any new warranty sentence is slightly alarming... But it specifically calls out two characteristics that are normal. It doesn't say [the normal stuff] and also whatever else happens around the inserts. If it's actually CYA for a defective process and these things end up worn down to bare wood in months, followed by Stern using the new clause to deny warranty claims, I'll eat a heap of crow. But I don't get the feeling that's the angle based on how closely scoped the new clause is. It seems targeted to deal with a particular category of spurious complaint, and only that.

#38 1 year ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

When they cost <$5k sure, not anymore.

They earn their keep still, that I can assure you.

#39 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballrockstar:

Don't compare it to B/W:Bally/Williams was a high quality company,they are gone and nothing today beats their quality guys...sad but true.

I totally agree with this. I said this in a JJP thread. Ghosting and playfield chipping with the clear coat is bullshit. I have Addams Gold, Attack From Mars, Monster Bash and Scared Stiff. Not one damn issue with these 20 plus year old pins. So the real question is, WTF is going on!!!

#40 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballrockstar:

the clear coat nowerdays is not the same quality clearcoat as 30 years ago,because people died inhaling that paint..

If that was the case then why doesnt Spooky, JJP, CGC, and CPR playfields have ghosting as well? I think Stern (or whoever is doing the clear for them) just doesn't have their process under control. If they did they would have identified the issue and fixed it by now since its caused a bit of a black eye for them.

17
#41 1 year ago

Lots of people keep saying that these are commercial machines built for no other reason other than to make money and that playfield issues should be no big deal. If that were true then I would agree but NEW FLASH people, the market has changed and that is no longer the case. People are now buying these games for their homes and they are proud of them and want them to look nice in their game rooms. We know this can be done because it's been done in the past for 40 years or whatever. These games also have a premium price tag on them so in return I want premium quality!

#42 1 year ago
Quoted from Skyemont:

I have Addams Gold, Attack From Mars, Monster Bash and Scared Stiff. Not one damn issue with these 20 plus year old pins. So the real question is, WTF is going on!!!

My metallica, transformers, star trek, avengers, mustang, walking dead... also don't have that problem.
It's just the last 1,5 years they seem to struggle so much with the ghosting (after a couple of gameplays) and playfield quality.

#43 1 year ago

Gross, well second had only sterns for me from now on, at least I can inspect them..

#44 1 year ago

Pure CYA and cost containment on Stern's part, as they know they have a Quality Control issue that's too expensive for them to fix. Played 2 different SW Pro's last night at the local launch party, one already had ghosting on the large hotdog inserts.....

#45 1 year ago
Quoted from AUKraut:

Pure CYA and cost containment on Stern's part, as they know they have a Quality Control issue that's too expensive for them to fix. Played 2 different SW Pro's last night at the local launch party, one already had ghosting on the large hotdog inserts.....

It's sad. It's much safer to buy used

It's funny Spooky games do not have this issue and they have not been at it long.

New sterns
Cabinets pulling apart
Slight adjustments needed
Ghosting
Chipping
Decals peeling
Decals not installed properly
SD cards not installed.
Mech issues

New Spooky game
Sometimes slight adjustments needed out of the box

#46 1 year ago

I actually really like this new policy, and am sure it will be expanded and will go something like this: "Ghosting and plastic crazing is possible, the cabinet corners may split apart and your decals may rip, the clear coat may chip, there could be prominent playfield graining, and several other unforeseen events may happen to this new Stern machine. This is all normal and to be expected. Thank you for your continued support of Stern Pinball."

#47 1 year ago
Quoted from hank527:

It's sad. It's much safer to buy used
It's funny Spooky games do not have this issue and they have not been at it long.
New sterns
Cabinets pulling apart
Slight adjustments needed
Ghosting
Chipping
Decals peeling
Decals not installed properly
SD cards not installed.
Mech issues
New Spooky game
Sometimes slight adjustments needed out of the box

Do not forget that code may be rewritten to accommodate hardware deficiencies.

#48 1 year ago

I'm in on a SW premium, but this is very concerning. Is it true that JJP, Spooky, etc have never had any problems (ghosting, cab corner separation, chipping, decal probs). If they have, can anyone with first hand experience tell me how they have responded. I agree that there can be slight probs with any machine, but if I'm paying as much as a car, I do expect a certain amount of responsibility.

19
#49 1 year ago
Quoted from capguntrooper:

Do not forget that code may be rewritten to accommodate hardware deficiencies.

Great idea!

Imagine there being new rules that have a voice saying

"Shoot the chipped insert target!"

or

"Light the ghosted insert target!"

There could be an adjustment in the settings that Stern provides. You'd enable "My playfield is chipped" or "My playfield has ghosted inserts". You'd only get these special callouts when you enable this... or maybe it should be enabled by default.

#50 1 year ago
Quoted from dnapac:

I'm in on a SW premium, but this is very concerning. Is it true that JJP, Spooky, etc have never had any problems (ghosting, cab corner separation, chipping, decal probs). If they have, can anyone with first hand experience tell me how they have responded. I agree that there can be slight probs with any machine, but if I'm paying as much as a car, I do expect a certain amount of responsibility.

JJP is having major problems right now as we speak with the DI playfields chipping. As far as spooky goes......they just don't have anything I'm interested in. JJP also won't send you a new playfield, just a piece of Mylar or a sticker to cover the chipped clear coat. JJP is no better than Stern so don't listen to the JJP "high quality" BS because it's not true.

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