(Topic ID: 286929)

Stern MPU 200 Flickering control lamps issue

By 80spit

3 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 33 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by Quench
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    View topic image gallery

    Stern_ROM_list.pdf (PDF preview)
    20210202_161010 (resized).jpg
    20210201_160859 (resized).jpg
    20210201_143758.jpg
    20210201_143707.jpg
    20210201_143654.jpg
    20210201_143646.jpg
    #1 3 years ago

    I am working on a Stern Galaxy, MPU-200 Having issues with the MPU causing the control lamps to flicker, also I get a reset or a lockup when ball drains to the outhole occasionally, I have narrowed it down to the MPU because it works fine with another board, just would like to get this board up to snuff, voltages are good, just looking for some guidance where to go next
    Thanks Guys

    #2 3 years ago

    a

    #3 3 years ago
    Quoted from 80spit:

    just looking for some guidance where to go next

    Post some clear high resolution pictures front and back (preferably taken outdoors in shaded daylight) of the MPU board.

    Are the flickering controlled lamps LEDs or incandescents?

    You'll need a logic probe to diagnose this.

    Your problem sounds familiar:
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/big-game-mpu-200-issues#post-5616331

    #4 3 years ago

    Board is pretty clean, no major alkaline damage, I'm using incandescent bulbs. I do have a logic probe. Control lamps in test mode are weak, but I have seen that before, appreciate the help

    20210201_143646.jpg20210201_143646.jpg20210201_143654.jpg20210201_143654.jpg20210201_143707.jpg20210201_143707.jpg20210201_143758.jpg20210201_143758.jpg
    #5 3 years ago

    I can see some reflowing of pins on the rear side except for J4 and it could be that i can't zoom in any more but at pins 1,2,3 & 4 look to have cracks around them.....but i could be wrong.

    maybe reflow these?

    #6 3 years ago

    Didn't think J4 looked bad, so I did not reflow, going to check values as listed on the big game thread above tonight

    20210201_160859 (resized).jpg20210201_160859 (resized).jpg
    #7 3 years ago

    Ok, so you're not dealing with battery corrosion.

    How about a full frontal picture of the board?

    Per the thread I linked above with the same symptom as yours, what does your logic probe indicate at pins 3, 4, 5 and 6 of U15?

    #8 3 years ago
    20210202_161010 (resized).jpg20210202_161010 (resized).jpg
    #9 3 years ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    Ok, so you're not dealing with battery corrosion.
    How about a full frontal picture of the board?
    Per the thread I linked above with the same symptom as yours, what does your logic probe indicate at pins 3, 4, 5 and 6 of U15?

    Pin 3 low with pulse
    Pin 4 both low and high with a pulse
    Pin5 low with pulse
    Pin 6 low and high with a pulse
    It's my understanding pin 4 on U15 should measure 5v, I'm at 2.93v

    #10 3 years ago

    Without checking a board here, your readings look reasonable.
    Pin 4 of U15 should be pulsing which happens upstream via pin 10 of U19.

    The output of U15 at pin 3 is called the "VUA-Ø2" signal. It's used for timing when devices on the MPU board are accessed. Check the state of it dowstream at each destination:

    U10 pin 25
    U11 pin 25
    U7 pin 10
    U7 pin 13
    U17 pin 10
    Non-banded side of diode CR52

    They should all indicate the same as U15 pin 3.

    #11 3 years ago
    Quoted from Quench:Without checking a board here, your readings look reasonable.
    Pin 4 of U15 should be pulsing which happens upstream via pin 10 of U19.
    The output of U15 at pin 3 is called the "VUA-Ø2" signal. It's used for timing when devices on the MPU board are accessed. Check the state of it dowstream at each destination:

    U10 pin 25
    U11 pin 25
    U7 pin 10
    U7 pin 13
    U17 pin 10
    Non-banded side of diode CR52
    They should all indicate the same as U15 pin 3.

    Yes all points test the same. Low with a pulse

    #12 3 years ago

    It could be the light from the pic but zooming in J4 pins 1 & 2 appear to have a crack around them, and I get that you are happy with the appearance and I don't know the workings with such detail as Quench but seeing the board is out of the pin you got nothing to lose by reflowing J4.

    #13 3 years ago

    Any chance you have an oscilloscope? Might need to get a good look at that signals waveform.

    BTW, your logic probe readings indicate your logic probe might be set on CMOS. If so, please change it to TTL.

    In the mean time, can you probe the following and let us know what you get:
    U17 pin 10
    U17 pin 9
    U17 pin 8
    U8 pin 19
    U13 pin 19
    U14 pin 1 through to pin 7 inclusive

    And have you got an EPROM programmer? Would love to get a copy of that V2.0 U2 ROM..

    #14 3 years ago

    Ok, Quench, sorry was away for the weekend, No I do not have a scope, but do have a eprom programmer, more than happy to send you an image.
    here are the above results and yes I was on cmos, change to ttl
    U17 pin 10 high and low with slow pulse
    u17 pin 9 low with pulse
    u17 pin 8 high with pulse
    u8 pin 19 High with pulse
    u13 pin 19 high with pulse
    u14 pin 1 high and low fast pulse
    u14 pin 2 high with pulse
    u14 pin 3 high with pulse
    u14 pin 4 high and low no pulse
    u14 pin5 high and low no pulse
    u14 pin 6 high no pulse
    u14 pin7 high no pulse
    Thanks
    Gerry

    #15 3 years ago

    Sorry to be a pain, can you redo the U14 readings with your probe set to CMOS? It's a CMOS chip and some of those U14 results look a little off.

    I would expect in the order of flow:
    U14 pins 6 & 7 = high with pulse
    U14 pins 5 & 4 = low with pulse
    U14 pins 3 & 2 = high with pulse
    U14 pin 1 = low with pulse

    Your U17, U8 and U13 results look reasonable.

    Can you dump that U2 EPROM and tell me what checksum you get in your EPROM programmer software?

    #16 3 years ago

    Quench
    Here are my findings
    U14 pins 6 and 7 high with very fast pulse
    U14 pins 4 and 5 Low with very fast pulse
    u14 pins 3 and 2 High with pulse
    U14 pin 1 Low with pulse
    My eprom, 2716 check sum is 0001F3DE
    Not a pain at all, Thanks for the help

    #17 3 years ago

    So those results are pretty much what's expected. No clues have been revealed yet.
    With regard to the lamps flickering, does it happen all the time or does it come and go? Does the game intermittently reset within a few minutes if you leave it in attract mode?
    Is there any background you are aware of with this MPU board? i.e. did you get it this way or did it it start failing in your possession, and what work has been done on it? I can see U10/U11 sockets are new, U7 U8 and U13 are replaced.

    Quoted from 80spit:

    My eprom, 2716 check sum is 0001F3DE

    The widely available U2 ROM has a checksum of 000208DE. You have something different and the Stern documents (in German attached) indicate there are two Galaxy ROM versions. They indicate your U6 ROM will be different in conjunction with your new U2 version.
    It would be great if you could dump the four ROMs so we can have this new version available for use/preservation.
    Thanks.
    Stern_ROM_list.pdfStern_ROM_list.pdf

    #18 3 years ago

    This I believe was the original board for the pin, I think all I did was replace the 5101's to get it to boot, All the control lamps flicker all the time in attract mode and when in game play, reset usually only happens when the ball drains and hits the out hole.
    As far as the Roms, I have never tried to read the mask roms, guessing its doable, Ill look into it.
    I did try the 000208DE Rom only in U2 left the others in and it booted normally, still the flickering though Ill try posting a youtube video of it
    Thanks

    #19 3 years ago
    Quoted from 80spit:

    All the control lamps flicker all the time in attract mode and when in game play, reset usually only happens when the ball drains and hits the out hole.

    Do you by chance have something (frequency counter) to measure the frequencies at the Zero Crossing Detector and Display Interrupt Generator?
    Pin 18 of U10 and Pin 40 of U11 respectively. Should read 120Hz and 400Hz.

    Quoted from 80spit:

    As far as the Roms, I have never tried to read the mask roms, guessing its doable, Ill look into it.

    If your programmer supports 2532 EPROMs can you try reading it as a 2532? The file will be double size but hopefully one half will contain the data.
    If it doesn't produce valid data then yeah a converter needs to be made to either swap pins 21 and 18 to make it 2716 readable, or connect pin 21 to pin24 (5 volts) to ensure it will read proper as a 2532.

    #20 3 years ago

    Quench
    I do have access to a oscilloscope but have to get a probe for it, also have no idea how to use it either,
    I'm attaching links to 2 videos of the flickering and shut down on ball drain, Still puzzled

    #21 3 years ago

    If you go into lamp test mode, do the lamps flicker when they flash on?
    Are you getting wrong lamps coming on during attract mode / game play?

    With your logic probe, what does it indicate at pin 1 on any of the 24 pin chips on the lamp driver board in attract mode? From memory it should be Low with Pulse.

    #22 3 years ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    If you go into lamp test mode, do the lamps flicker when they flash on?
    Are you getting wrong lamps coming on during attract mode / game play?
    With your logic probe, what does it indicate at pin 1 on any of the 24 pin chips on the lamp driver board in attract mode? From memory it should be Low with Pulse.

    In lamp test mode, they don't appear to flicker, the correct lamps are lighting during game play, pin 1 of the 4 24 pin IC's are low with a pulse
    as you thought,

    #23 3 years ago

    Let us know when you get the oscilloscope ready and post a picture of it so get some idea of what you have.

    Looking at your attract mode video, there are abnormalities with respect to the top saucer lamps, drop target lamps and bonus lamps chase sequence - sometimes they stall/speed up.
    Compare to here to TNT's video where those lamp sequence is smooth:

    This is yours:

    #24 3 years ago

    if you have isolated the problem to the MPU board I would try a known good PIA at u10 as it controls both switches and lamps. The power on self test is not fool proof and a bad PIA can pass the test.

    #25 3 years ago

    FIXED!!
    Andrew, yes I changed out U10, tested fine in the Neoloch , but changed it anyways, no change, got to snooping around with my DVM on diode test and poked around U14 comparing readings to a good board and they were totally off, Socketed it out and put in a new 14572U in and its working perfect,
    Thanks to Quench for making me hang in there, Im really no more than a shot gunner doing these boards and was ready to bail, but it was such a clean board, now its ready to go and move this Galaxy out of here to a new owner soon

    #26 3 years ago
    Quoted from 80spit:

    Socketed it out and put in a new 14572U in and its working perfect,

    Both problems are fixed (lamps and the reset on trough)?

    #27 3 years ago
    Quoted from DickHamill:

    Both problems are fixed (lamps and the reset on trough)?

    yup, seems to be working fine, will roll a couple games on it once I get a new speaker in it

    #28 3 years ago
    Quoted from 80spit:

    got to snooping around with my DVM on diode test and poked around U14 comparing readings to a good board and they were totally off, Socketed it out and put in a new 14572U in and its working perfect,

    Great to hear you found it!
    Can you remember which U14 pins were off? May give us a better understanding of the issue.

    #29 3 years ago

    Thank you so much for posting your fix and following through with tests. This will probably help more people in the future!

    #30 3 years ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    Great to hear you found it!
    Can you remember which U14 pins were off? May give us a better understanding of the issue.

    Ok, Found the old IC took readings again, I had the DVM on diode test, red lead on pin 16, U14 and on a good board all the other pins had a reading between .400 to .700 volts, on the bad IC I got open's on pin 1 thru 6 , pin 11, 13,14, 15
    I know this is probably not the right way to check these, but in the past I have found many bad components just using my DVM and comparing it to a known working source, and it worked again one more time

    #31 3 years ago

    Thanks, if you still have the machine, any chance you can logic probe these pins on the new chip?

    U14 pins 6 and 7
    U14 pins 4 and 5

    Your original results were slightly suspicious so I'd be very curious if they indicate differently now.

    Quoted from 80spit:

    I know this is probably not the right way to check these, but in the past I have found many bad components just using my DVM and comparing it to a known working source

    This is an effective approach, I have done it in the past mostly with the 4543 decoder chips on the display boards. It's a way to determine if a missing display segment is caused by a bad output on the chip (which can be easily compared to other outputs on the same chip).

    #32 3 years ago

    U14 measures
    Pin 6 high with a very fast pulse
    pin 7 Low
    pin 4 Low with pulse
    pin 5 Low with pulse

    This is from the now working MPU

    #33 3 years ago

    Cheers, so pins 4 and 5 have changed from having a very fast pulse to just a pulse.

    U14 pin 7 is connected to pin 6 so should have had the same reading, but we'll just put that down to a bad connection on your logic probe when taking the reading.

    Thanks.

    Reply

    Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

    Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

    Donate to Pinside

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


    This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-mpu-200-flickering-control-lamps-issue?hl=dickhamill and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

    Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.