Stern Meteor
After restauration MPU and replacing rectifier board, starting up the machine and everything looks fine. Lights bumbers ,tragets works well.
Exept, when using the flippers direct the fuse F4 blownout. Checked wiring onderplayfield and they ate acc schematic. Also the three flipper coils were replaced.
Any suggestion where to look at??
I would check the wiring to the flipper coils and the EOS switches. It sounds like something was reversed when the new coils were installed.
Quoted from Lambecka:Already checked the wiring under playfield but seems to be ok.
Clearly not since the fuse blows. Stern schematics are often wrong.
If all the regular solenoids fire properly you've got the flippers wired incorrectly - the same wires provide the power to all the solenoids (the under PF fuse is just for the non-flipper solenoids, and that's where the power feed splits off for the flippers)
Quoted from slochar:Clearly not since the fuse blows. Stern schematics are often wrong.
If all the regular solenoids fire properly you've got the flippers wired incorrectly - the same wires provide the power to all the solenoids (the under PF fuse is just for the non-flipper solenoids, and that's where the power feed splits off for the flippers)
Ok wil double check
But can it be on the driver solenoid board in back box??
Quoted from Lambecka:Double checked wiring of flippersolenoids and they are ok.
As soon hit the flipperbutton the fuse blows
post pictures of each flipper wiring, cabinet flipper switch wiring, and SDB wiring (left side of the board)
Quoted from djblouw:post pictures of each flipper wiring, cabinet flipper switch wiring, and SDB wiring (left side of the board)
Quoted from djblouw:post pictures of each flipper wiring, cabinet flipper switch wiring, and SDB wiring (left side of the board)
149DDC2A-DD3C-471A-8452-5498B560A41B (resized).jpeg9CCE9ED5-C76B-4370-9C75-AB679F2B9CCA (resized).jpegI don't see how your bottom right flipper will open the nearer end of stroke switch.... switch is the same length on both blades and shouldn't be.
Quoted from slochar:I don't see how your bottom right flipper will open the nearer end of stroke switch.... switch is the same length on both blades and shouldn't be.
Ok , did not found that, but you,re right one of the blades is broken, but don,t think this can be the reason for blowup the F4 fuse.
Will change out the short one
Quoted from Lambecka:[quoted image][quoted image]
Your end of stroke switch has no way of opening on this coil. So the power is never forced to go through the hold winding. Thats a problem for sure.
Quoted from Blake:Your end of stroke switch has no way of opening on this coil. So the power is never forced to go through the hold winding. Thats a problem for sure.
Quoted from Blake:Your end of stroke switch has no way of opening on this coil. So the power is never forced to go through the hold winding. Thats a problem for sure.
You,re right but will that blow the fuse?? Fuse blow a soon as press the button, it blows on the right button but also on the right button
And ofcourse will replace the broken switcH
Quoted from Lambecka:You,re right but will that blow the fuse?? Fuse blow a soon as press the button, it blows on the right button but also on the right button
And ofcourse will replace the broken switcH
Under normal circumstances I would say no unless it was being held for too long. And the fact that the fuse blows without using that flipper means thats probably not the issue either. I'm assuming you meant to say "left" button.
Are all the power wires going to the outer lug with the banded side of the diode? And are all of these wires the blue/white?
Also I can't find a schematic for this machine so can you confirm that the top switch on the bottom right flipper is for engaging power to the upper flipper? Are you sure thats wired correctly? I see the switch is in the N/O state, is that proper? Would make sense if engaging power to the upper flipper. I see one wire on the switch is going to the return/GND lug of the coil, where does the other wire go to?
Quoted from Blake:Also I can't find a schematic for this machine so can you confirm that the top switch on the bottom right flipper is for engaging power to the upper flipper? Are you sure thats wired correctly? I see the switch is in the N/O state, is that proper? Would make sense if engaging power to the upper flipper. I see one wire on the switch is going to the return/GND lug of the coil, where does the other wire go to?
Here part of scheme showing the three flippers
73C327BB-8385-468B-AE46-3CB162DFD117 (resized).jpegQuoted from Blake:Under normal circumstances I would say no unless it was being held for too long. And the fact that the fuse blows without using that flipper means thats probably not the issue either. I'm assuming you meant to say "left" button.
Are all the power wires going to the outer lug with the banded side of the diode? And are all of these wires the blue/white?
Alle diodes installed with band to outer lug with blue white wire on all three flippers
From what I can see, I agree that everything looks to be wired correctly. I've compared against my Meteor, and it matches.
I'd start trying to isolate the flippers now (disconnect all but one, and see if it changes the behavior).
Quoted from djblouw:From what I can see, I agree that everything looks to be wired correctly. I've compared against my Meteor, and it matches.
I'd start trying to isolate the flippers now (disconnect all but one, and see if it changes the behavior).
Ok wil do that tomorrow, but today already disconnected the right one and same occurred, fuse blows.
More and more think it must be in the driver board, see picture. Is there a way to bypass this board for testing.. ??
36B64E9F-E9FC-471D-81C5-2B992B826709 (resized).pngThe driver board only enables the flipper circuit through a relay. And the relay either works or it doesn't, never seen one cause the fuse to blow. If the transistor that controls the relay was shorted on, you would have flippers all the time.
Take your multimeter and measure each coil, like a poster said above just because the coil is new doesn't mean it isn't bad/shorted internally.
Yes you can bypass the solenoid driver board to test the flippers and see if the solenoid driver board is related.
Remove the J1 and J2 connectors and jumper the flipper wires as per the picture you uploaded.
J1 pin 9 orange to J2 pin 1 red
J1 pin 8 green to J2 pin 2 blue
Quoted from Rikoshay:Yes you can bypass the solenoid driver board to test the flippers and see if the solenoid driver board is related.
Remove the J1 and J2 connectors and jumper the flipper wires as per the picture you uploaded.
J1 pin 9 orange to J2 pin 1 red
J1 pin 8 green to J2 pin 2 blue
Did this test and fuse still blow. This proof that solenoid board is ok
Following step: remove the three coils and inspect coils and diodes
Quoted from Xenon75:The driver board only enables the flipper circuit through a relay. And the relay either works or it doesn't, never seen one cause the fuse to blow. If the transistor that controls the relay was shorted on, you would have flippers all the time.
Take your multimeter and measure each coil, like a poster said above just because the coil is new doesn't mean it isn't bad/shorted internally.
Removed the three flipperunits complete and disassembled the coils. Checked all of them with multimeter and coils did not show any value Ohm. Removed all the diodes and measured the coils again and they show the value ohm as per specification.
Most of the installed diodes are blown up.
Diodes being blown would cause the fuse to blow instantly as it's a dead short when you flip then.
Don't play the game with the diodes out it will damage things.
Quoted from Lambecka:Need to order new diodes. In the meantime installed the flipperassy withoutthe diodes.
Startup the machine and flippers work. Fuse stay in
Its good you found the bad diodes. Replace them as you mentioned. But don't use the flippers without the diodes as the back EMF can damage your drive/predrive transistors.
Quoted from slochar:Diodes being blown would cause the fuse to blow instantly as it's a dead short when you flip then.
Don't play the game with the diodes out it will damage things.
Beat me to it by 46 seconds.
Quoted from Blake:But don't use the flippers without the diodes as the back EMF can damage your drive/predrive transistors.
The only thing on the circuit is the big flipper relay, could this actually damage it?
Quoted from Black_Knight:The only thing on the circuit is the big flipper relay, could this actually damage it?
Good point. I'm guessing the collapsing of the magnetic field is considered a potential hazard to any part and thus they always install diodes. I read sometime ago that the force created by the field collapsing is significant. Also think about the connections going to the relay. Whats stopping the back EMF from damaging further up the stream of the relay. Is that force halted in someway by the relays coil or not. I'd rather not find out the hard way.
Quoted from Blake:Good point. I'm guessing the collapsing of the magnetic field is considered a potential hazard to any part and thus they always install diodes. I read sometime ago that the force created by the field collapsing is significant. Also think about the connections going to the relay. Whats stopping the back EMF from damaging further up the stream of the relay. Is that force halted in someway by the relays coil or not. I'd rather not find out the hard way.
Reading the forum about the use of diodes, seems to be discussion everytime. Iam not experienced enough, so will stay at the safe side. Original these unit were delivered with the diodes installed and must be a good reason in that time.
I will install these diodes and thank you all for the input.
Albert
Quoted from Blake:Good point. I'm guessing the collapsing of the magnetic field is considered a potential hazard to any part and thus they always install diodes. I read sometime ago that the force created by the field collapsing is significant. Also think about the connections going to the relay. Whats stopping the back EMF from damaging further up the stream of the relay. Is that force halted in someway by the relays coil or not. I'd rather not find out the hard way.
There is nothing on the circuit until the ground and the BR on the power board, flippers are isolated. The BR is diodes, so, not sure your going to hurt anything.
There are plenty of coils out there without diodes. I jut don't think this is a circuit that needs them. Would like to hear from someone who actually knows what they are talking about - cause I'm just guessing.
Quoted from Black_Knight:There is nothing on the circuit until the ground and the BR on the power board, flippers are isolated. The BR is diodes, so, not sure your going to hurt anything.
There are plenty of coils out there without diodes. I jut don't think this is a circuit that needs them. Would like to hear from someone who actually knows what they are talking about - cause I'm just guessing.
Yes I now see the flippers are mechanically controlled and not operated by the CPU. So that rules out damaging drive transistors upstream. That may also mean a diode is not necessary for safe operation. And yes there are coils without diodes. But if we are talking specifically flipper coils, every game I've come across operating flippers on DC current (excluding some new stern it seems) are utilizing a diode inside their particular circuit. This includes mechanically operated flippers on early SS. Lots of newer games installed the diodes on the driver boards or remote boards to keep people from mounting them the wrong way and remove the possible issues associated with vibration from the flippers but they are in the circuit and illustrated in schematics. I stand by the thought its a good idea and the safest way to operate the game.
By the way cool arcade. How long have you operated vertigo and how’s it been going through all the Covid changes.
Thanks for the bump. We just opened in May, so no Covid issues for us, GA has been open since early this year.
Quoted from Black_Knight:Thanks for the bump. We just opened in May, so no Covid issues for us, GA has been open since early this year.
That’s great! I wish you the best. Place looks like fun.
Quoted from Blake:Good point. I'm guessing the collapsing of the magnetic field is considered a potential hazard to any part and thus they always install diodes. I read sometime ago that the force created by the field collapsing is significant. Also think about the connections going to the relay. Whats stopping the back EMF from damaging further up the stream of the relay. Is that force halted in someway by the relays coil or not. I'd rather not find out the hard way.
Still struggling in getting these flippers working. .Try to install the new coils with the diodes installed. Showing two pictures , first is the original schematic showing that the EOS is connected to the power side ( blu white ) and the middle contact of the coil.
Second picture showing the EOS is mounted between ground site and middle contact, som ot to the powersite. Always worked on EM machines , but this is different
Also like to know if there is on these coils a powersite (direction). When i installed the diodes, just mounted the band site to one direction.
Need some help again
94C27AE4-CA55-4AF6-A53A-830DECF196E2 (resized).jpegA38451D5-FE63-4D3E-AF72-15CB35A22C53 (resized).jpegQuoted from Lambecka:Also like to know if there is on these coils a powersite (direction). When i installed the diodes, just mounted the band site to one direction.
Yes, there is you should see 2 wires a fat and a thin going to one of the terminals. That is the power feed side. The EOS switch one end goes to this side as well, and the other goes to the fat wire other end (usually the center). The other terminal should have the other end of the thin wire.
You probably mounted the diodes backwards. The fuse would and should blow instantly on activation as you've noted is the symptom here.
Post a picture showing the wiring and the diodes.
Quoted from slochar:Yes, there is you should see 2 wires a fat and a thin going to one of the terminals. That is the power feed side. The EOS switch one end goes to this side as well, and the other goes to the fat wire other end (usually the center). The other terminal should have the other end of the thin wire.
You probably mounted the diodes backwards. The fuse would and should blow instantly on activation as you've noted is the symptom here.
Post a picture showing the wiring and the diodes.
On the animated drawing, showing the lightblue wires , one goes to nonpresurre site and the other to the centre ??
Problem with fuse was already solved, but one flipper was ok and the rightone only moved a little.
First i mounted the diodes on the coil, just put them on, was in the understandig there was no difference in how.
After that mounted the wires and took care that the power wires was attached to the band site of diode, so fuses did not blow. But if now seems is that on the coil itself is as pressure site as well, maybe explain reason why it was on half power.
Cannt post pictures because already dis assembled all three units.
Having the coil disassembled, without any wire soldered , is it possible to measure with multimeter what the pressure site is??
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Veendam
Berea, OH