Not everyone can afford the Premium model , so if they delete the pro model, they will lose those sales immediately.

I think they are handling it appropriately as long as the pro stays at a low price point.

If you google "good, better, best marketing" you'll get a slew of results on the topic. Lots of companies sell the way Stern is, including the software company I work for.

http://www.marketingzone.com/1332-upselling-good-better-best-options

As long as people keep buying their product, they will change nothing, unless it's to get more money out of buyers.

The current competition is probably the best thing for pinball in 10 years. If prices start trending downward, that would be fantastic.

I said yes, because I like that they are trying different things. I think it is wise for anyone in business right now to be looking toward the future. Hopefully they will continue to change so they can produce 2 to 3 machines a year for many years to come.

I have conflicting views on this one.

On the one hand, pinball is made for operators, and I'm not sure an op is going to want to pay extra for a cool topper that's probably going to get stolen from the local bar. If you're buying a pro for home because there's not enough to justify the LE, then you're going to want the extras and don't mind making up the difference.

On the other hand, if you're shelling out an extra $2000 for an LE, why is that not coming with a topper? But, again, we get spoiled in Pittsburgh with ninjadoug putting LEs on location (thank you, Doug), and the same 'topper is unnecessary' argument applies. I think he's in the (awesome) minority when it comes to putting LEs on location, though.

I would like to see the rules be the same across the models. If they want to charge more for extra toys, effect whatever I think that is fine. I feel like they try to make the pro less desirable with subpar, cheesy art. For example the pro star trek cab and backglass vs the le and the p layfield on ad/dc pro. I think it's annoying that they would leave the cross over ramp off Mustang pro.

But I'm on the purchasing side, not the manufacturing side so if it works for them I guess go for it. Can't afford a Pro anyways!

Honestly I didn't read past this because I 100% don't care if they change their ways and I don't really see why they need to.

What they do is working for them from their perspective, and if you do/don't like it, do/don't buy anything from them.

Stern is the only one who cares if an operator can make money on the street. They are not a boutique pinball manufacturer. The pro version of the game is a great approach and is the bread and butter of their company. Premium and LE versions are mostly for collectors who do make up a portion of their sales and are important, just not as important as the pro sales. I am going to resist from posting a ton in this thread because I have expressed my opinion on Stern's strategy enough on this site to a point where I am sick of hearing myself.

Stern your doing great please keep it up. Work on your code, but everything else is coming together very nicely.

JJP take a note and make a game that gets delivered on time, offer a pro version for people to put out on the street.

That's basically JJP's model. Or Stern's model if you get rid of the Pro and only sell Premiums and LEs.
I personally think Stern would be nuts to get rid of the Pro line. They have virtually no competition at that pricepoint.

I will say yes even though the current strategy may keep me from buying.

They have to offer the pro for the ops. They really don't have a choice on that one. They also need the LE to make sure the ROI happens as quickly as possible.

That potentially leaves me out, as a Premium buyer, because Stern doesn't need that model. If a game is a hit, then they will make a Premium, and I will be a happy buyer. If not, I will just not buy that title.

I think it is good that they are offering mods, but it seems like they are underestimating their competition with the mods they showed for TWD. I think the established mod guys will be able to beat them on either quality or price, and maybe both.

The only real flaw with their current plan is the lack of complete code on release. A game may turn out great once code is complete, but they may have decided against a Premium by then. That would be the only case where I will feel like I missed out. If a game just isn't good enough to warrant a Premium, then I probably wouldn't want it anyway.

I want the Fish Head mod, where do I buy it?

I would like Stern to tell us where we can purchase these and be a bit more clear on that end of things?

Metallica Pro is $5k and Monsters Premium is $7k. The upgrades are not trim, they are mechanisms, LEDs, and code. Stern will not sell all the junk in the Premium for the price of the Pro, even if you eliminated the tiers. That's why.

Stern is the only company selling NIB for under 5k. That works for me...

Actually their model works out quite well for me. I just wait for someone to buy an LE and get tired of it, or have to make room for a new game.
Then I just wait 8-10 months and buy it with low play for the price of a premium (if Stern had made them).
It works for me. Keep up the good work Stern

Im not too keen on the mods sold through Stern rather than dealers.
It also makes the Le seem like the premium and to get the LE you got to spend the extra $1200 for all the shit. My point is with the trim especially, the mod trim looks badass in the photos. The Le's trim on the line looked really bad like bloody diarrhea. I wouldn't move it to any game and feel good about it without sandblasting it and re-powder coating it.

This is the main reason i cancelled the LE and switched to a pro,
well that and i need to start saving for DP game #2

Stern's marketing is a total bust. It would seem like the longest, most established player in the market would know who they are. Remember the stripped IM and BDK sold at Costco? Didn't take off right away and abandoned. "The Pin"? Flop. Pro, Premium, LE model, then just Pro and LE model. They just can't decide. They don't seem to have a game plan that they stick with long enough to see if it works.

And then, when they do make a new game, where's the media? They have a cool new website. Why is it that the first video you see of the game is a grainy cell phone video taken by the first guy to take delivery on the game. Stern used to make some effort in making videos of their games. Now that's completely gone.

Their marketing plan, if that's what you want to call it, seems to be disjointed and completely in disarray.

Distributors should be marketing since they are the ones selling the game.

I'm not a fan of the LE stuff but I understand why they do it and it definitely is popular. I'd rather they just have a Pro and Premium.

I guess my issue is the uncertainty around whether a table will have a Premium or not. Lets take TWD for example. No word yet on a Premium so my options are pre-order an LE without ever playing the game and hoping the code gets complete one day. Or wait and buy a Pro despite the fact I'd rather have the features that would come with an LE/Premium.

Premiums at Pro prices.......that's the ticket.

Differentiate with trim, not with gameplay. Put all the model levels and price points you want, but one playfield layout and one set of rules.

Agreed.... I don't care how they package or price the cosmetics of a Premium, LE, Special Editions, aftermarket mods, etc, as long as the game play and rules are 100% the same across the board.

I agree with that, but then they would miss out on the "limited" sales effect.
Look at TWD for instance, the first thing that we heard was that LEs were being sold out and that if you didn't preorder in September you would miss out on the unique opportunity to have the full game. So even if you still can find an LE today, the fact it was scarce probably boosted sales.

By introducing a Premium model, I guess that a lot of LE buyers would have waited for better code, price drops or whatever.
From a marketing point of view, creating scarcity is (maybe not the best) a strategy. It does suck to have different rulesets and stripped down games, but sales-wise I think they achieved what they expected.

I understand why they do the Pro model from a business perspective, and it doesn't bother me at all as long as there is a Premium version that is readily available.

My problem with LE models is that everyone is making too many of them. I think LEs should be truly limited, just 250 (or less) of a fully blinged up pin for those who love the theme.

Still thinking there will be a TWD Premium after LE is sold out. This may Stern's new method...make sure the LE is sold out before announcing the Premium.

You're making it sound like the LE and Pro are wildly different when in fact historically they have 1 or 2 different/extra mechanisms, and different art and code. They might save 1% for all we know, and there's nothing making them pass any savings on to us. By switching to cab decals and keeping 90% of the game the same, they are already mostly doing what you are describing, but it's not so they can sell you a cheaper machine, it's to maximize profits.

I agree the bling adds a significant cost but that is where Sterns new "mods" approach is ideal and then the LE covers this as well but reckon scrap the Premium and have a base model Pro with the same game play as the LE at the same Pro price.

Again, the Premiums/LE's have more than just 'Stern Mod' toppers and trim. Again, with Metallica as the example, are you suggesting that the Snake mechanism, Hammer Lock, color changing GI etc... are sold as mods, or that they should be sold to you at 5k? Either way that's not going to happen imo and I think it's kinda silly to ask for it either way. Maybe that's just me.

That would be a terrible idea imo from a commercial point of view... It would piss off everyone. The pro buyers that didn't want to spend $8000 on an LE and the LE buyers that felt "forced" to go that way in order to have a full featured game.
Plus, that would be a one shot strategy... If they try to do the same for the next release, a bunch of potential day one buyers will be waiting for the Premium announcement and launch sales would therefore be affected, which is not in Stern's interest in order to generate a quick ROI.

I agree with geekmiki, it's a poor sales strategy considering Stern is still shipping games with code in its infancy. There's absolutely no way to judge whether a game is truly worth purchasing until the code is finally finished a year later, and by then Stern has typically wound down production of both Premium and LE. It's a "buy blind" market at this point from all manufacturers, who rely solely on pre-orders to determine final production.

How is that any different with a Premium?

Neither one of the last two posters arguments makes any sense.

Because the Premium doesn't have pre-determined production limits it is Stern's only mechanism to recover from a bad guess on LE production. Remember, the LE is designed to be sold out, usually before the game hits the streets, so without a Premium on a well liked title, there is no way to make more full gameplay models to meet customer demand. Stern loses money, customers are not happy with their options.

No, gameplay should be the same.

Best way to solve the problem is, people who don't like the pro and think they shouldn't make them, let your money do the talking and buy a premium.

If it is available of course... If they continue the TWD strategy, there won't be any Premium models and it will be LE blind buy at the highest price or stripped down Pro. Which IMO is the worst choice you can get as a customer because of the aforementioned points (not finished code on release, gameplay differences, etc.).

Will work out great for the flippers when there is a good LE of a machine that gets bad early uninformed reviews, like with Tron.

Car dealerships do adverts, but the actual car companies do the higher budget ones.

This is Stern we're talking about. These guys suck so much at business that a young upstart like DP looks like the leader of the industry without even releasing a single pin.

Don't over-estimate Stern. Set your sights low with these guys. Remember Luci? Many were pissed. Even JJP did it with Ruby Red edition.

If a flipper bought every LE, they would lose money more often than not.

Yes, because people hate choice

What is their model? Sell Premiums when it suits us? They are all over the map. If their model is to offer an affordably priced FULL featured version of all their tithes, than I'm cool with it. Otherwise screw 'em.

Pretty much nailed it.

Apple had many different machines when they were going out of business, like a dozen. When Steve Jobs came on as CEO, he simplified everything to only 3. Keep it simple. How many versions of AC/DC do we even have? 4? What about Tron? 5?

You just need 2. The cheap one and the full version. No sub-categories, which reminds me too much of the comic book industry during the 90s with their gold/silver/platinum covers. Collectors exploited. The whole LE thing is a gimmick.

I agree 100%. Keep the business methodology clear and concise. You want the pro/full version that is great, if you want to step up to the premium version, pay the extra amount and enjoy the additional items. Both should have the same software and a very similar gaming experience.

I understand that the market and competition should drive value for money (the pro version). Those who wish to invest in a premium product should be willing to pay for it. Two variants with complete market coverage.

I'm just happy company's are still making machines. Stern pro is the only nib I can afford so it's ok in my book.

It's absolutely ridiculous that the premium level can be dropped on a whim. The premium level IS the game. Spider Man - premium level; LOTR - premium level. This is so simple it gives me a headache..

1) Make THE game. Make it to a good, solid premium level, designed for route and home alike.
2) Make a stripped down version for a more economical choice,
3) Add some trim, some signatures and a plaque for a limited version..of 200 units.

STOP SCARING people into buying LEs to get the full playfield..this is complete bullshit.

The biggest thing i hate about this. When stern makes an LE that somehow proves to be one of the best pins ever. Only 1000 owners (or any other le number) can enjoy that game.

1000, with 7 billion people on earth....

Not even looking at the money. Why would you take the risc one of your best pins is only available to such a tiny group of people?

Make the pro the same gameplay, and bling the le with whatever you want. Taht is the wy to do it. And sell tons of extra mods. Its not only the best way for the costumers, its for stern too. Cause they will sell alot more pins.

I will never support this business as it is now. My savings will goto jjp or dp.

It would be great if Stern just marketed the full game and a scaled down Pro model, and then offered cosmetic upgrade options at the time of order from their Mod Shop for nicer armor, real back glasses, toppers, etc. Seems like this would satisfy everyone other than flippers. It would suck to buy a Walking Dead LE (which is suppose to be the top of the line) for close to $8k only to find out that that you need to spend another $400 to get the real top of the line armor. It would take more effort to include various options upfront but plenty of manufacturers are doing it successfully.

I understand that they are trying to maximize profits (that's why businesses in the US exist) but I'm skeptical that the TWD approach is the right one. It seems like they are in flux awaiting their new factory and next generation design, which is giving the impression of a muddled strategy. Hopefully they will land on a marketing strategy that will excite the bulk of their customers.

There are 5 versions of ACDC, but only two gameplay platforms, Pro and Premium/LE. I'm fine with them making all the cosmetic variants they want, but let's not limit production of an entire gameplay platform like they are doing with TWD.

The ACDC situation is far better than AF or TF. AV also has 5 variants, but 3 gameplay platforms: The Pin, Pro, and Premium/LE. TF also has 5 variants and 3 gameplay platforms: The Pin, Pro, and 3 LEs. Both under-sold Stern's expectations, making the extensive amount of models look silly in hindsight. Tron had only 2 variants, 2 gameplay platforms, but actually the differences were minimal between subsequent Pro/LE titles. They just underestimated demand of the title due to successful game/software/cosmetics, so they missed out on selling a boatload of Premiums, and Pros are still in demand.

+1. assuming they can still sell Pro versions for less than $5k.

Okay I see. Thanks for your reply. I think 3 variant game platforms makes development expensive for nothing. Stern's marketing department disregards what would help the devs keep their budgets in check. If the devs work on just one gameplay platform, they would save money and use the rest of their budget for more tech and/or coding. This company is in serious need of some centralized management (like Steve Jobs did at Apple), they need to optimize.