(Topic ID: 332003)

Stern lightning - flippers strength

By barakawins

1 year ago


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  • 43 posts
  • 11 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by sparky672
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 1 year ago

Working on a Stern Lightning. Flipper strength seems a bit low for right ramp. Left ramp seems normal. Is this normal for this title?

So far did the following:

Changed plunger and links
Changed both coils and sleeves
New rubbers
Aligned flippers

Is there anything I’m missing?

#2 1 year ago

You should always be able to make the right ramp, it's not going to careen out of it and fly to the top though.

#3 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

You should always be able to make the right ramp, it's not going to careen out of it and fly to the top though.

Could it be the pitch of the machine? I cant figure out why I cant get it to go up the right ramp. The left makes it though. Sometimes a lot quicker than other times.

#4 1 year ago

are you able to pull on the bat upwards and confirm that there is a little play to ensure the flipper shaft isn't binding on the flipper bush and there is free movement of the assembly?

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

are you able to pull on the bat upwards and confirm that there is a little play to ensure the flipper shaft isn't binding on the flipper bush and there is free movement of the assembly?

I'll check this tomorrow and will report back. I haven't thought about that.

#6 1 year ago

Ok I did check flipper relief and its fine there. Anyone have any other ideas?

#7 1 year ago

are your transformer lugs joined according to your wall outlet voltage?

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from barakawins:

Anyone have any other ideas?

You changed all the flipper parts except the one that affects flipper power the most. The EOS switch. Power off, measure resistance across closed EOS switch. If more than 1ohm resistance, sand contacts until under 1 ohm or install new ones.

#9 1 year ago

Mine has always made both ramps with ease, did before I rebuilt the lower flippers too, so I don't think it's a Lightning 'thing'. What angle do you have your game set to?

#10 1 year ago
Quoted from phishrace:

You changed all the flipper parts except the one that affects flipper power the most. The EOS switch. Power off, measure resistance across closed EOS switch. If more than 1ohm resistance, sand contacts until under 1 ohm or install new ones.

On this game the EOS switch is normally closed. The end of stroke opens the contacts. So this shouldn't affect the power right?

#11 1 year ago

yes it affects the power if the EOS switch is closed but not making excellent contact as it's not isolating a coil winding.

with the flipper down and the EOS closed you are skipping a coil winding by creating a short, that being the EOS.

the EOS shorts the high resistance winding leaving the low resistance winding being your 'hit'.

as the flipper crank turns with the bat it opens the EOS breaking the short and bringing in the high resistance winding so as to hold the flipper up and not cause the coil to get hot.

#12 1 year ago

what gap do you have when the flipper is up and contacts opened?

i get you changed both flipper coils, but did you check the resistances prior to fitment?

#13 1 year ago

Ok so I checked resistance and it’s only 0.5ohms so we are good here.

Anything weird that you can see in these pics?
Is there any capacitors missing or something?

These are of the left flipper

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#14 1 year ago

I may have found the problem, but not sure. Could it be the wrong spinner preventing me from getting the ball up the right ramp? See pic

image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg
#15 1 year ago

as long as you can 'flip' the spinner and it spins freely with multiple revolutions then it's fine.

having said that the tension on the contacts underneath need to be correct, you may have it that the thin blade is having to flex/bend too much causing resistance to the spinner rotating?

did you remove a wire from the EOS to test the resistance?

#16 1 year ago

Yes resistance is good. I'll check over wiring tomorrow to see if correct.

#17 1 year ago

Quick tip, remove the ball gates from the top of both ramps. Really improves the flow of the game and makes it 'lightning' fast. Will never play with them on again

#18 1 year ago

Highly recommend changing end of stroke switches and cabinet button switches.

#19 1 year ago
Quoted from splattii:

Quick tip, remove the ball gates from the top of both ramps. Really improves the flow of the game and makes it 'lightning' fast. Will never play with them on again

Doesn't that pretty much take the upper left yellow arrow rollover out of the picture, along with advancing the bonus multiplier?

#20 1 year ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

Doesn't that pretty much take the upper left yellow arrow rollover out of the picture, along with advancing the bonus multiplier?

To some extent, but I find it hits it often on the right side because when a ball is locked on the right and you're shooting the standup targets on the right, the ball often rebounds off the locked ball and pushed towards the middle as opposed to going back down the ramp. The left side switch is obviously a bigger issue, but for me personally the tradeoff of the ball flying back down the ramps and creating a very fast game is worth it. The game really slows down when the balls drains in the middle hole on the upper playfield imo

#21 1 year ago

Ok so I checked wiring and it's correct. I also went ahead and changed the coil stop bracket. No change. I'm starting to wonder if the spinner is too heavy causing the slow down since it's not a classic stern spinner. Anyone have a classic stern spinner?

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from splattii:

To some extent, but I find it hits it often on the right side because when a ball is locked on the right and you're shooting the standup targets on the right, the ball often rebounds off the locked ball and pushed towards the middle as opposed to going back down the ramp. The left side switch is obviously a bigger issue, but for me personally the tradeoff of the ball flying back down the ramps and creating a very fast game is worth it. The game really slows down when the balls drains in the middle hole on the upper playfield imo

I could see maybe using a modified wireform on the left ramp gate, where only the right half (or more, or less) is a gate and can still catch the ball sometimes. Sort of like the right side where the ball can still fall down to the rollover with the right bounce. But with no upper left arrow you can't advance the bonus multiplier and in 3 ball you can't light a red arrow via completing the yellow arrows.

#23 1 year ago
Quoted from barakawins:

Ok so I checked wiring and it's correct. I also went ahead and changed the coil stop bracket. No change. I'm starting to wonder if the spinner is too heavy causing the slow down since it's not a classic stern spinner. Anyone have a classic stern spinner?

Did you check the flipper button cabinet switches. They must be new "tungsten style switches"? or at minimum clean to get a consistent flip. I find that you often need to use a small file on those tungsten contacts to get them shiny and making nice contact. SAME is true for the EOS switches. Tungsten switches are not like a typical pinball switch (which you should never sand or file down). With tungsten switches, sometimes you will need to get aggressive.

#24 1 year ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

Did you check the flipper button cabinet switches. They must be new "tungsten style switches"? or at minimum clean to get a consistent flip. I find that you often need to use a small file on those tungsten contacts to get them shiny and making nice contact. SAME is true for the EOS switches. Tungsten switches are not like a typical pinball switch (which you should never sand or file down). With tungsten switches, sometimes you will need to get aggressive.

Yes I used 2000 grit sand paper on the cab switches and eos. Still no change

#25 1 year ago

From the top of the PF, can you slightly lift up the flipper bat and push it back down? It should have about a washers thickness of up and down play through the PF there or you will get some very weak flipper power. Also known as "backlash", play, or slop. It is a good thing in this case! It's the #1 reason I see when encountering a slugging flipper and no one ever talks about it. Both flippers should have a similar amount of play. If not, loosen the flipper bat shaft, lift it up a bit, then realign and re-tighten it.

1 week later
#26 1 year ago

Ok Changed spinner to stern spinner. Still can’t get ball up ramp. Spinner seems to slow it down.

Anyone see any issues with how it’s installed?

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#27 1 year ago

have you checked the downward tension of the long contact leaf blade that it's not pulling down to much causing resistance for the spinner to rotate?

#28 1 year ago

Your star posts holding the spinner look too short. Look how tall they are above the rubber ring in the pic below.

https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1441&picno=34157&zoom=1

Measure those posts and get taller ones. While you're waiting for the new posts, remove the spinner and sand the axles with that 2000 grit sandpaper. Also clean the bracket as needed. Once all clean and reassembled with bigger posts, put a small drop of light oil on each axle where they contact the bracket. Ball will scream up the ramp and spinner will spin for a good long time. Everybody loves a good spinner rip.

#29 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

have you checked the downward tension of the long contact leaf blade that it's not pulling down to much causing resistance for the spinner to rotate?

This helped a little bit. I was able to get the ball to go up at least twice. But, still it seems hard to get up the right ramp with the left flipper.

#30 1 year ago
Quoted from phishrace:

Your star posts holding the spinner look too short. Look how tall they are above the rubber ring in the pic below.
https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1441&picno=34157&zoom=1
Measure those posts and get taller ones. While you're waiting for the new posts, remove the spinner and sand the axles with that 2000 grit sandpaper. Also clean the bracket as needed. Once all clean and reassembled with bigger posts, put a small drop of light oil on each axle where they contact the bracket. Ball will scream up the ramp and spinner will spin for a good long time. Everybody loves a good spinner rip.

Measured posts. They are the same size, not shorter. I did sand the axles with 2000 sandpaper, cleaned the brackets and oiled em up. Spins nice but still, can't get up the ramp all the time.

#31 1 year ago

Here's how mine is set up, both post screws are top threaded so post caps can go on both ends. One nut on each side holds the posts, the other two nuts hold the spinner frame, so the spinner is higher by the thickness of the extra nut. It may not be original but I honestly don't remember setting it up like this on purpose so it was probably like this when I got it eons ago. Just too long ago to remember. Anyway my spinner has always spun very fast on hits and and I can easily make the ramp.

If you take the spinner off, can you then make the ramp a ton easier?

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#32 1 year ago

what gap do you have when the EOS is fully opened by the flipper crank?

curious if it's opening too early?

also the second pair of switches....are they making contact close to the end of the stroke?

curious if either or both switches are putting too much tension on the crank?

also do you have the same compression springs on both assemblies?

#33 1 year ago

Remove the spinner and see if you can easily make the ramp shot. If yes, spinner issue. If no, flipper issue.

#34 1 year ago

Ok, when I remove the spinner, the ball goes up the ramp no problem. It's definitely a spinner issue. Just not sure why. This is a classic stern spinner. Maybe I need a lighter spinner?

#35 1 year ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

Here's how mine is set up, both post screws are top threaded so post caps can go on both ends.

Yes I always use a "top hat" post so you csn easily mess around with a spinner.
Personally I use nylon nut but I'm a fan of acorns in general, same diff'rence though.

Edit: so is it the spinner arm that had a 90 degree bend and not a circle?

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#36 1 year ago

anything from post 32?

also have you checked that the link arm isn't rubbing up against the playfield?

also doesn't look to be much 'play' either side of where the spinner arms go into the bracket? you could elongate say the right hand hole in the bracket to take the arch out of the bracket and add some room for the spinner to move left to right.

I'm only going by the pics, it may be fine?

Have you thought about using taller posts each side?

#37 1 year ago

So the fix was to change the coils to the proper ones. Apparently, the wrong flipper coils were installed. The proper coils are J-25-475/34-4500. Previously J-25-450/34-4500 were installed. These work well.

#38 1 year ago
Quoted from barakawins:

So the fix was to change the coils to the proper ones. Apparently, the wrong flipper coils were installed. The proper coils are J-25-475/34-4500. Previously J-25-450/34-4500 were installed. These work well.

That change seems counterintuitive as the 475 coils are slightly weaker than the 450 coils, but as long as it is okay now that is all that matters.

#39 1 year ago

Hmm mine has 25-500 Stern coils on all four flippers which apparently should be even weaker than 25-450 and 25-475(?), but even then I've always felt they were a bit overpowered for this game. They are blue but look original, hard to believe somebody would have replaced them all with a different coil over 30 years ago. I did replace the two bottom ones after I got it just because the lugs were all beat up.

Did your game have 450s on all four flippers?

#40 1 year ago

yes. 450s on all 4 flippers.

#41 1 year ago

How do you know which classic stern flippers are weaker or stronger?

#42 1 year ago
Quoted from barakawins:

How do you know which classic stern flippers are weaker or stronger?

Given the same wire gauge, 450 windings would be more powerful than 475, etc. There's a complicated formula for it but it's the general rule with the typical coils in a pinball and where you're not talking about increasing or decreasing the number of windings by some huge percentage - less windings with same gauge, more power.

#43 1 year ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

less windings with same gauge, more power

Yes exactly.

Less windings at same gauge => lower resistance => more current draw

More current draw at the same voltage => higher wattage (wattage is power)

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