I haven't played either. I was really really excited about LZ as they are absolutely one of my all time faves. I love GnR, and have one of those coming (whenever JJP gets around to making it...)

After seeing the initial pics of LZ I was kind of in shock. I mean...I get that it is subjective, but I have to admit I was super disappointed. Based on excellent artwork in a majority of recent sterns, IMO, this really did seem like they had a hand tied behind their back.

The game play is something I can't comment on as I am partial to playing them myself before casting judgment.

And although my current collection looks like I'm not a Stern fan, I absolutely love many of their pins and am grateful they've survived all these years.

Oh wow! I hadn't heard anyone hearing about the CEs yet. Congrats! I hope mine is not too far out

I agree with this sentiment. Granted, this IS a troll thread, but it's quite interesting how much vitriol seems to exist beyond just playful banter.

And since this is a troll thread...

Any bullet point based arguments are absolutely pointless. I do appreciate fact checking when such arguments do happen, as I never like any product that has had man-years of effort poured into it being misrepresented.

Any way you slice it, the LZ machine seems like a "phoned in" effort when compared to GnR. I mean, Slash literally contributed to the machine unlike any other music themed pin in history. Arguing with this fact is simply pointless. Stern has a different business model IMO.

All that being said, Stern has a knack for making machines that play really really well. Iron Maiden is one of the best pins ever. Besides the fact that Elwin hasn't really missed a beat yet (IMO), I LOVED my Star Wars Premium, and despite a lot of folks opinions, I really think BKSoR is a great shooter. All in all, I don't agree with the notion that Steve Ritchie has lost his touch.

Lastly, I love this thread. It's fun to see all of the different opinions and occasionally seeing someone insert their foot in their mouth.

Happy new year! It's as good of a time as ever for Pinball!

PS>

I'd argue that all of the JJP'S play killer. I won't argue about most of them not having the "flow" of Ritchie or Elwin games. Dialed In and Wonka are really good shooters. And JJP POTC is epic overall. But maybe "plays killer" has a specific definition I'm uninformed about..