I talked to my stern guy last nite, he was thinkin dec release for zeppelin. Anyone hear otherwise?
(Topic ID: 258935)
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Guns N' Roses (LE)
Jersey Jack, 2020
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5 months later
2 months later
Quoted from Hazoff:Yeah they will. Way better music, much larger fan base. while the lightshow is impressive on GnR the doesn't equal a better playing pin. I liked the layout of the SE but now that I know all the music is live with old timers jumping around the stage I have no interest. U guys are into the look more than the play and that's cool but if I were a betting man, Zeppelin will crush GnR.
I'm with you!! Already have a deposit for zepp le, when it comes. To be honest, the gnr is pretty, but not much innovation play wise. Cool features, but so so play. Am looking forward to playing it nx week, hope it changes my early impression
Quoted from phil-lee:I would be scared of getting sick of Led Zepp music knowing it would get played a thousand times.
I really like GnR but watching the video of gameplay left me wondering, are there alternative electronic pinball sounds available through the mpu?
Don't get me wrong, like most of the songs but just couldn't stand hearing them over and over while learning the machine.
There's a new feature on jjp called volume control. Pretty cool how it works
Quoted from phil-lee:I get that smart ass, but are there alternatives? 80's Bally had 6 options on sound, I am not familiar with new machines.
Haha, just poking fun at ya. Geez everyone is so touchy these days.
Quoted from Pickle:The light show on Kiss is amazaing! The light show on GnR is over the top and almost too much but it is KILLER!!! Song list is pretty good. Need to flip it before I can comment on gameplay.
As far as the LZ pin from Stern:
I predict in the words of Keith Moon this game is gonna go down like a Lead Zeppelin. Stern is cheap and does not have what it takes to top JJP. First music pin from JJP and it has over 20 songs. Stern has 12 or so at best in their music pins. Zep has a HUGE catalog of good songs. Bet you get maybe 10-15 if lucky. And there is not much in terms of art to work with for Zep when compared to other bands. It’s pretty bland. But it’s a grail theme for a lot of people so it will sell but my bar is set pretty low on what the game will be. Can’t wait to see it to really compare but the bar has been raised I believe. Stern has to do something above these cookie cutter games they crank out to top GnR.
No art to work to work with? Are you serious? Bands heydays in 60s and 70, some of the best psychedelic art ever seen. I think both pins will be good, time will tell if either are great!
Quoted from Hayfarmer:No art work to work with? Are you serious? Bands heydays in 60s and 70, some of the best psychedelic art ever seen. I think both pins will be good, time will tell if either are great!
Quoted from Pickle:Light show on Kiss is AMAZING! It’s one of, if not my favorite pins. They missed the mark to make it a concert experience. They could have put video and other stuff but they didn’t. It could have been integrated much better than what they did.
I think sometimes JJP puts too much in their games and the first games being wide bodies play a little slow compared to standard body pins.
So how many songs do you think will be in the Zep pin? Unless Stern steps up I am sure it will be the usual 12-15. Why limit it when there is many more good songs. I still love my Metallica but it would be nice to have more songs to hear. Same with Kiss. A lot more songs could be on it.
I am just one opinion of thousands. Until we see the Zep pin who knows which plays better. GnR has a great light show. It may be too much of a light show but I need to play to know for myself. We don’t know what’s in the Zep pin. And it’s gonna feel and play different to match the music/ features they put in the game.
For perspective:
I saw the Metallica/GnR stadium tour in the 90’s. Metallica played first. They kicked Ass! GnR came on and it was very flat and all the energy was sucked out of the stadium. I left it was that bad. That’s how I feel this is gonna be.
But in comparison I saw GnR on Use Your Illusion tour. Soundgarden opened. The whole show was great GnR was amazing seeing them by themselves.
Ya we saw met and gnr too, met killed as always, gnr kinda phoned it in. Good, but far less energy than met. Im hoping zepp will have a toy ir 2, gotta be a stairway dont ya think, not seeing anything like that on gnr. Still, gonna go play it nx week and hoping its a hit
Quoted from phil-lee:Sorry it came off that way.all in good fun, no worries.
I raise hay too, only 5 acres worth but good stuff.
Its all good ya farmer! Been long year, and I am a smart ass so I wasn't offended. Personally, I love music pins and zepp is a dream theme fr me. Gnr good too,
2 weeks later
Quoted from beelzeboob:So is Game of Thrones. And ACDC. And we could talk about all the amazing games SR designed before Eric sprouted pubes. Both great designers, but I think Eric would have to beef up his resume a bit before you could compare one to the other.
Bksor is underrated and a great change of pace. After a few games on it, gard to go play something slower. Classic SR setup
Quoted from John_I:Well I got to have a session on GnR LE this weekend and now I'm even more certain that it is LZ or nothing for me when it comes to these two. Right up front I will point out that I am not even close to being a GnR fan, so the pin would have had to totally blow me away for me to ever buy one. Unlike the really spiffy professional JJP release videos and glamor shots, the game doesn't look as impressive in person. Even still, GnR is certainly complete and full featured looking with a lot of attention to detail in the art and toys. Right away I noticed pooling in the clearcoat in a few places despite the Oct 2020 build date. The gameplay was not great but not bad. Not like the satisfying butter smooth shots in AIQ and the upper playfield looks cool as hell but doesn't really add much IMO. Still there is a ton there for those who want the world under the glass as you would expect for the steep prices. What I don't expect for the high price is the crappy sound system; especially on a music pin. The way JJP turned the mid speakers facing upwards instead of toward the player when they moved the boards out of the cabinet and into the back box makes them sound really poorly equalized and tinny at times. Beauty is in the ear of the beholder, but even a Stern Pro sounds better (in my opinion) because the speakers are pointed directly at the player. Also Stern uses a 2.1 amp so the cabinet speaker is its own separate adjustable channel rather than the old fixed crossover. So even the GnR LE is yearning for the sound bar that is on the CE. I've seen this discussed on a few threads and have to agree what others have posted. A final note is the JJP flippers are not bad, but not as precise and crisp feeling or powerful as I am used to with Sterns.
So on a whole, no real surprise as I have been leaning hard toward the LZ side of this question since day one of this thread. LZ is one of my all time favorite bands and GnR has about four songs that I like. Also, I love Steve Ritchie - even his recent games that others turn their noses up at.
Well said. Im the same, big lz fan, but like gnr too, just not willing to drop 10k on it. I love Ritchie games and the string flippers on sterns. I just bought a bksor despite the negativity towards it, and we are loving it. Such a huge change of pace from ehoh. I hope to get some real time on gnr and hoping it will change my initial reaction.
Quoted from HEAD_boss_HOG:you make a very good point. I agree that SR is a rainmaker in pinball, historically speaking. I just don't see the inspiration from him in the present day as the games have changed, technology has changed, and people demand more from the games they pay 6000 bucks for. SR is about over the hill at this point IMO. I just look at his games and see the same type of experience over and over
SR's best game is Star Trek, and ACDC is pretty rad. BKSOR is good, but not necessarily great like those games, and star wars is kind of a bummer designed PF.
Good to have options tho isn't it?
I'm hoping for maybe a 60 or 70s psychedelic look, with the lz theme. You don't have to do album covers for art work. The concert posters from that era were very cool. And, its about their music. Not their art.
1 month later
Quoted from beelzeboob:I'm starting to think EVERY pinball company should just live-stream their reveal with gameplay at that moment. You'd be able to not only see the gameplay, but see the light show along with the artwork and how it all ties together. I don't care if it's JJP or Spooky or Stern: Everybody seems to turn into an art critic when a game is released...and that's not really what pinball is about.
Do you all remember when DI was shown at Expo by JJP? Half the room got up and walked out. I was embarassed for the JJP guys and felt horrible--how do you think that makes someone feel after spending years on a project to have everybody judge it on the spot without even plunging a ball first? And DI went on to be regarded as one of JJP's finest games.
GnR looks amazing. I have no idea how it plays. LZ looks less amazing, but judging by my love of past Ritchie games, it's a safe bet for me...even if it's got a face only a mother could love. (Although I think it looks pretty cool...)
But then you wouldn't have experts telling you why it sucks before they play. This way is much more fun. Both good games, I hope. In different ways
Quoted from Psw757:That right there is a good example of why some modern contemporary art style wouldn’t fly with the retro vibe stern went with on LZ. It’s is intended to be in your face early to mid 70’s.
Old school art and color don’t work on 80’s/90’s GNR style.
Everyone is up in arms over the amount of Icarus pictures in the art I think 7 or 8.
How many f’ing skeleton or skeleton heads do I need to see on GNR?
I’m good with it though as it’s a major part of their images as is the Icarus and the Zeppelin.
Its a two way street folks
Too many icarus is easy fix. Im looking for something to replace jumper and pop bumpers caps. Im sure some of these great mod builders will have stuff soon after release
Quoted from thechakapakuni:True. For the most part it’s an opinion. If you like LZ & don’t care for GNR you are gonna lean on LZ. But when it comes to the pin and what was put into it, this just isn’t an opinion or debate, GNR just crushed LZ. Here is the PFs, you tell me who put in the effort and who mailed it in?
[quoted image][quoted image]
Instead of barren vs stacked, I'd say clean vs cluttered. Flow vs no flow.
Quoted from pinmister:It has gotten so bad I almost made use of the ignore feature for the first time over frustrations lately. I reminded myself that the ignore feature just leaves blanks in conversations and makes threads more difficult to follow. So I just speed read past people that I do not have a connection with. Lots of filtering
Haha, I have 2 ignored in this thread and it doesn't bother me at all. Same guys, same responses, over and over. One if the best features on pinside many say
Quoted from chuckwurt:Had mine for almost a year and if it was bad I would’ve sold it already. Solid game.
Easy guy. We just poking fun at each other 
I know man, just kiddin. Its a game that gets a bad rap here too. I've played and while I wouldn't buy, its pretty fun. Theme thing for me. Like LZ 
So, how many ehoh toppers are they gonna make? Any solid numbers or just speculation? I wouldn't care if I only got back half of what I paid. Its fun on a great game
Quoted from iceman44:Yeah I don’t care either cause Elvira is a great game I’ll never sell.
This next topper run is it and then done they say.
And I paid for that crapper on top of JPLE
My TWD fish tank head topper is awesome.
None of em come close to CGC
Idk, bk is pretty great topper. Would not of bought game if I couldn't get one.
Quoted from kermit24:He had a 111M song jackpot drain.
Is the stream available anywhere to see? Still gathering info on this title. Thx
Quoted from pinmister:I want to apologize for creating a VS thread that really is unbalanced. I thought about it and it really is no comparison. An epic band 'LED ZEPPELIN' with iconic timeless music, and the fabulously famous number one designer-'Steve Ritchie' with his signature fun, fast, game design VS Guns N Roses-a band struggling to keep their relevance from the late 80's with Fat Axl running around stage way past his prime(lip-syncing), and another over-packed JJP game design with repetitive modes and unbalanced scoring. A game that actually has a great theme-plays well and has monster flow vs a box of pretty lights with Fat Axl running around on LCD screen?
Again my apologies for the un-balanced VS thread. In hindsight I should have made the thread name "Stern Heavy Metal vs. JJP Guns N Roses" Sorry guys-next time I will try and compare games in the same category. I would still take a Stern Heavy Metal over a JJP Guns N Roses. Now for the same 10 JJP trolls to thumbs down-rinse and repeat.
Now yr just being mean to heavy metal
Quoted from pinmister:Hey Now I did say I would still choose Heavy Metal(actually think it is a bad ass theme).
My choices in accordance would be Stern Heavy Metal, Philly Cheesesteak(with Cheez-Whiz) and then a JJP Guns N Roses Standard
Haha, I know agree with you except I'd rather have a subway instead of Philly
Quoted from iceman44:Variety is the spice of life brother! Yeah i'm looking at GNR for the total "experience", I've got great playing Stern games and with LZ, it feels like i've already played it many times before. I'd rather go back and buy AC/DC again, or SM.
Munsters is a fun game that plays excellent. It's the code that is very weak. Another game that is really good that gets wrongly destroyed is Stranger Things. But it's a ball busting drain monster!
How many times have you played lz? Until its played, how can it be accurately judged? Same with gnr. I guess I'm not as good as you all, I have to actually play before I decide if I like or not
1 week later
Quoted from RA77:Team JJP has finally got the well deserved Smash Hit, No doubt GnR for 2020 Game of the year.
I'm not ashamed to admit I'm a Stern Fan boy and a HUGE Steve Ritchie fan.
JJP has won me over easily on all fronts. Presentation, Execution with over all Killer Package !
Kudos team JJP for raising the bar yet again with GnR.
"You know where you are baby"
I'm in on my first JJP at last !Edit: I will say Led Zep will be a flow monster with TS lead code and SR amazing layout, killer stainless ramps, bare but good all for good reason, I Know Led Zep will flow and play Awesome ! Really crazy how Stern shot themselves in the foot with the poxy blue trim on the LE OMG ??? Anyway as I mentioned previously it can be changed, Can't wait to see LE custom trims.
Watching deadflip stream, the trim comes off much better under normal lighting. I was worried too, but think its going to be great in person, in my lineup
I think your last sentence sums it up pretty good except why wouldn't you want to own a game you want to play? As a zepp on order owner, I can agree that gnr is absolutely beautiful. Stellar light show, but game play has no appeal to me , yet. So I'd rather own a game I want to play than something that's beautiful and potentially not as fun.
And hard to compare pro to le. Which i understand is all we have to compare now. Prem and le I think are much better than the pro
Quoted from snaroff:Odd comment. I like owning games I play. I've certainly owned eye candy games, but they don't stay long. The great players stay.
I've only played LZ, but watched several streams of GNR gameplay.
It's very clear to me that LZ is easy to like if you ignore how stark it is...shoots smooth and is just easy. GNR is much more subtle in it's shots and gameplay and I'm sure takes longer to warm up to. Since I've owned many SR games, LZ was like many SR games I've played/owned before.
Agree, but for me, as honestly an average player, theme is more important than depth. And I'm not a tourney player, so love fast flowing games
. Im not knocking gnr at all, just probably not my style. I think both are good offerings and will be enjoyed
Quoted from SWfan:You make a good point, I meant I'd like to own it because it is impressive looking and fun for non-pinball players. If it were just for me and was my only pin, I would rather have LZ as long as it has enough code to not get boring...
Good review you did, it will be awhile before a gnr is in my area to play. Will be interested to hear your thoughts if you play both again. Thanks for an unbiased review
My only knock on gnr is gameplay I've seen on video. My opinion is center scoop is too important, so too much stop and go. As far as comparing lz to sw, I have no idea because I'm not a sci fi fan. Sw or st might be great games, just not for me. So, a long shooting, fast, good flow works for me. Enjoy your gnr ce, its definitely beautiful!
I do agree that Stern was probably restricted my license
Quoted from PokerJake:That'd be fun. Are you saying the LZ is indestructible? Hell yeah!
Hes a panzer freak, so he's saying lz is built like a tank 
Indestructible
Quoted from Pinchild:Still waiting on my GNR but ZP it hella fun to play!!
Super stoked it didn't suck.
It was never going to suck! Unless you listen to a certain few idiots who have never seen, played or had any interest in buying. Never understood people like that, but maybe it makes em happy
Quoted from Tranquilize:People like different things. The things I love suck to other people. Never understood people that can't unerstand that. Maybe they're living in a bubble.
Yes, but why can't people say their piece, then move on? To regurgitate the same thing over and over and over and over makes no sense. Don't like, don't buy. Easy 
Quoted from Tranquilize:The same can be said to those who want to rehash celebrating a specific machine. Debate is fun for both sides. You might see LZ as a great machine, while I see it as a cheap, rehashed fan layout that is worse than usual. I'm interested in hearing what you like about it. If you're not interested in hearing what I dislike about it, you can start by ignoring me and everyone who disagrees with your point of view. Don't like what you're reading? Don't read. Easy.
Haha, you're a funny guy. Its great to debate something, but at least be original. Gnr is gorgeous for sure. Long wait, more money, seems like lots of issues. Im still looking forward to playing it, have never said its shit like people do. I'd quote your last sentence, but since you copied me, it would be redundant, which is what I'm trying to say people are doing. Bring in a new angle, maybe after we've all played more than once. Me included 
Quoted from DrJoe:Why does every discussion in every thread turn into fanboys bashing one another? Can these games be compared without utter worship for one brand and disdain for the other?
Sign of the times
Clueless i guess. Just because I like to form my own opinions. I do agree that lz is stripped down, but if you read beyond pinball, zeppelin controls their assets harder than any other band on the planet. Makes no sense to me but apparently they don't want to make more money. I wish lz would of looked more like gnr or jp, but a change of pace will be good too. I guess I don't get the relentless bashing and ruining other peoples fun. I ordered a lz le and will enjoy the hell out of it. Enjoy your gnr, they are beautiful for sure
Its been documented that lz said stairway was off the table. Direct quote from game designer. Believe me, as much as it does not translate to pinball I was bummed too that it wasn't there
Quoted from romulusx:I think your friend Pinmister named hai thread GnR vs LZ?
You just never let up do ya? . I know its most all in fun, but dont understand the continually bashing from both sides. I was looking at gnr too and for how I like to play, it didn't suit my style. I've yet to play obviously, and hoping my impressions were wrong. I like faster longer shooting games, ehoh, met etc. Gnr is amazing to look at and I do look forward to playing it as soon as. Are we good?
And I do know who Hardy is, I dont watch a lot of YouTube, but prefer the more optimistic approach of deadflip , or sdtm. I know hardy has a diff approach
Of course jd leans towards stern. But, watch him play any game, any era, and he's havin fun. I don't know if he can stream a gnr or not, with his stern relationship but woukd be cool to see
Probably so, but he's more of a negative reviewer/comedian type. Don't take that wrong. His style is different. Im more of an optimist( have to be to farm for a living) than a pessimist so maybe that's why I differ on his views. Just my opinion tho,
Quoted from Lamberger:Whatever, the potential was so huge... Having a hard time getting over what Gary decided to do here.. I was really looking forward to this theme, I'm still in shock I guess. Just can't believe it.
Its been said repeatedly that zeppelin gave stern certain assets to work with. There was no phoning it in. Look at lz compared to gnr. Black and white vs hair band glam. Lz signed off on all the art and stairway was a no go from the start. Lz protects their assets like no other. Gnr is beautiful for sure, If it plays well, I will look into buying.
Quoted from romulusx:How about decent playfield,cabinet and translite artwork?Come on man you just keep screaming flow like Carrie in the shower after gym class
Which game did you order?
Quoted from SWfan:What are you talking about? I’ve played them both and I didn’t even say I preferred LZ. In fact, I said I rated GNR higher, but I guess you only read what you want to see...
If you like bombing the flipper buttons to smack endless multiball modes into a center scoop, while listening to worse music, GNR is definitely the way to go!
Quoted from Lamberger:https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/108846 GnR is clearly the winner as stated up top and there are a ton of pinball and Led Zeppelin fans that are disappointed. Time to move on guys, enjoy!
Ok, im holding ya to it 
Quoted from SWfan:Did you really just say, "I have not played either one but..."?
Haha. Hes an expert. Just ask him
Quoted from romulusx:They would say you obsessed with trying to convince us of liking what you do!
I don't give a shit what you buy.This all started with the disappointing introduction of this Zeppelin pin.Most people were shocked how bare playfield and how bad the artwork was,many of them well known artist on pinside.And then Stern fans started getting overly defensive about LZ .Lets all agree to disagree and buy the pin we want!
You keep saying that then 2 posts later you're talking shit again. Buy 1 or the other then talk all you want. I bought a lz. Will be happy with it. Im going to give gnr a chance after I play it more than once. Highly doubt you will buy either, prove me wrong
1 week later
Quoted from beelzeboob:...you decided to get a life?
I thought it was" but then, since I don't own either one, who cares?
While I do have a lz le coming, I really want to play gnr. No hate for the game at all, hard to understand why this is so polarizing. Kinda mimmicks something else we just went thru. Liking lz music over gnr was main reason for me
Quoted from LesManley:Interesting you say that. A local operator here just did this today. He previously had LZ at a different location other than his main one for weeks because he was afraid no one would play LZ if they had GNR at the same location to compare to it. Looking at the two games I honestly can't say I blame him. It will be interesting to see how both earn at his main spot right next to each other.
[quoted image]
So we are comparing a pro to an le now? It will be interesting to see the results. It would be fun to hear back in 2 weeks or so if possible. Im not looking for an lz upset win, just curious
Quoted from romulusx:You can fix those inserts if they were high I couldn’t tell from photos and no more was said about it.But one thing I know from being a carpenter contractor for 30 years that bowed LZ is trash!
1 game man, cmon. Has not been another
Quoted from beelzeboob:NO! You can't do that...don't you know if you bought LZ you're clearly an idiot? We're so stupid we can't even understand what they're trying to tell us.
Ok. Just canceled my lz.
I re read all the gnr arguments and I have to agree. Even with the missing, wrong parts and all the adjustments needed just to play, I think gnr is the way to go 
Quoted from Chisox:Yeah let’s get rid of one of the funniest and most respected guys on this forum. And a guy who opens his wallet and supports the forum I might add.
You noticed that too huh?
Quoted from Guinnesstime:I would like to prove this point by publicly declaring that I'd pick up Pool Sharks at the right price.
I hear ya. I own a huo sinbad i'd never sell!
Quoted from Lamberger:The pinball machine on the other hand, not so much.
Yet. Sold out. Cmon. Bring something new
Quoted from Psw757:He may save a couple bucks on a premium but I don’t see the LE’s going down at all.
Only up 
Quoted from beelzeboob:Not sure about that, either. That's one of the plans of these manufacturers jacking their prices up...knocks out the inflated secondary market.
Not on an le , only 500 and how many stayed in the states? Price will go up to a point then stay there im thinkin. Doesn't matter to me, didn't buy it to flip, will be here a long time.
Quoted from screaminr:Fair point .
But if you have your order in for GNR you're not gonna lose money , can the same be said for Led Zep ?
Time will tell .
I bought the damn thing to play, not to try to make a profit on it. This argument gets so old, they are toys, not investments
Quoted from beelzeboob:I plan to lose up to $2000 on every game I buy...beyond that hurts a bit, but I get over it in about 5 minutes. Hobbies cost money. Enjoyment usually costs money. When somebody is working to create something that causes me enjoyment, I expect to part with some money for the privilege. Most of my games have tanked in value and it doesn't bother me one bit. That's not why I'm in this hobby or on Pinside.
Its funny how we drive a new car for 5 years and lose 20k on it and don't bat an eye, but lose 1k on a pin and its the end of the world. While I have made a few bucks on some I've lost on many others. Hobbys don't equal investments in most cases, especially on toys. Although I do have old toys that are worth a fortune now,,,,,
Quoted from screaminr:People always say Stern pumps them out but people have been waiting months and months for AIQ , JP premium's as well as Elvira's and Batman's .
Let's check-in back in a year to see what the prices of le GNR's are .
Which game you waitin for?
Quoted from screaminr:Not really , it works out about the same considering there's 10 times as much in jjp games
GNR - it's going to be a long wait but I'd rather wait for something special than have something average tomorrow .
I wouldn't call lz average , its better than I anticipated. Gnr looks great tho.
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