Guns N' Roses (LE)
Jersey Jack, 2020Quoted from romulusx:Enjoy your LZ I couldn’t convince you that the sun was shining here today if your were standing here
What are you talking about? I’ve played them both and I didn’t even say I preferred LZ. In fact, I said I rated GNR higher, but I guess you only read what you want to see...
If you like bombing the flipper buttons to smack endless multiball modes into a center scoop (while listening to worse music), GNR is definitely the way to go!
Quoted from SWfan:What are you talking about? I’ve played them both and I didn’t even say I preferred LZ. In fact, I said I rated GNR higher, but I guess you only read what you want to see...
If you like bombing the flipper buttons to smack endless multiball modes into a center scoop, while listening to worse music, GNR is definitely the way to go!
Quoted from SWfan:If you disagree, its either because you haven't played them or you are in denial.
Quoted from romulusx:Enjoy your LZ I couldn’t convince you that the sun was shining here today if your were standing here
It's not about convincing someone to your view point- its about accepting the fact that people have different tastes.
Personally what matters most to me is game play, durability, and tournament viability (i host about 50 tournaments a year). As a collector theme is also very important to me. With those factors in mind LZ looks like a winner. So I ordered an LE.
However GNR does fit my music pin theme and the attention to detail is off the charts. Once i see how they're holding up and become readily available ill give it serious thought.
Quoted from SWfan:What are you talking about? I’ve played them both and I didn’t even say I preferred LZ. In fact, I said I rated GNR higher, but I guess you only read what you want to see...
If you like bombing the flipper buttons to smack endless multiball modes into a center scoop (while listening to worse music), GNR is definitely the way to go!
Alright Carrie you made your point!
You say,hey man I’m open minded and then you make the statements above! Full of shit!
Quoted from romulusx:Alright Carrie you made your point!
You say,hey man I’m open minded and then you make the statements above! Full of shit!
Not at all. You just aren’t listening. Still.
If I was to rank the 5 most satisfying shots between the two games, they would rank like this:
1. LZ Left Ramp
2. LZ Right Ramp
3. LZ Center Ramp
4. GNR Right (“drum sticks”) Ramp
5. LZ Left Orbit
Did you know that GNR has only one shot that always goes back to the flippers? Only the right (drum sticks) ramp goes back to the flipper every time. The left ramp goes back to the left flipper only when the diverter is up (but it is usually down).
So when I talk about flow, I am talking about how almost every shot in LZ goes back to the flipper (only the dead-end shot and the right orbit do not), and almost none of the GNR shots come back to the flippers.
So in LZ, you are constantly hitting the ball with your flippers. In GNR, you hit it, and then wait for it to go through the pops, or the upper playfield, or in the scoop. GNR has a ton more going on than LZ, but it doesn’t have any consistent flow to the shots (but it also isn’t a sniper game like JP or AIQ).
Combine that with A TON of multiball modes and you are either hitting the ball and waiting for it to bounce around before coming back to the flippers, or are just spamming the flippers to keep up with the regular 4 and 5 ball multiballs. It also has the worst plunge in pinball (but don’t worry, because LZ has the second worst plunge). It’s also worth noting that for all of the cool stuff on the playfield, GNR doesn’t really have any toys (other than the bad-ass Gibson guitar head ball-lock that I absolutely love).
I’ve said all along that different people like different things, but trying to argue that these two are on the same level in terms of shots is like arguing they are on the same level in terms of packed playfield. It is no contest in both cases. Now which of those two things you prefer is up to each person to decide.
You seem to want to decide for everyone that GNR is better and then insist on arguing about things that are not arguable. GNR may be better, but the shots aren’t...
You’ll see what I mean once you play them.
Quoted from SWfan:Not at all. You just aren’t listening. Still.
If I was to rank the 5 most satisfying shots between the two games, they would rank like this:
1. LZ Left Ramp
2. LZ Right Ramp
3. LZ Center Ramp
4. GNR Right (“drum sticks”) Ramp
5. LZ Left Orbit
Did you know that GNR has only one shot that always goes back to the flippers? Only the right (drum sticks) ramp goes back to the flipper every time. The left ramp goes back to the left flipper only when the diverter is up (but it is usually down).
So when I talk about flow, I am talking about how almost every shot in LZ goes back to the flipper (only the dead-end shot and the right orbit do not), and almost none of the GNR shots come back to the flippers.
So in LZ, you are constantly hitting the ball with your flippers. In GNR, you hit it, and then wait for it to go through the pops, or the upper playfield, or in the scoop. GNR has a ton more going on than LZ, but it doesn’t have any consistent flow to the shots (but it also isn’t a sniper game like JP or AIQ).
Combine that with A TON of multiball modes and you are either hitting the ball and waiting for it to bounce around before coming back to the flippers, or are just spamming the flippers to keep up with the regular 4 and 5 ball multiballs. It also has the worst plunge in pinball (but don’t worry, because LZ has the second worst plunge). It’s also worth noting that for all of the cool stuff on the playfield, GNR doesn’t really have any toys (other than the bad-ass Gibson guitar head ball-lock that I absolutely love).
I’ve said all along that different people like different things, but trying to argue that these two are on the same level in terms of shots is like arguing they are on the same level in terms of packed playfield. It is no contest in both cases. Now which of those two things you prefer is up to each person to decide.
You seem to want to decide for everyone that GNR is better and then insist on arguing about things that are not arguable. GNR may be better, but the shots aren’t...
You’ll see what I mean once you play them.
And just think nobody has even played the LE/PRE yet which is surely better than the pro.
Quoted from SWfan:Not at all. You just aren’t listening. Still.
If I was to rank the 5 most satisfying shots between the two games, they would rank like this:
1. LZ Left Ramp
2. LZ Right Ramp
3. LZ Center Ramp
4. GNR Right (“drum sticks”) Ramp
5. LZ Left Orbit
Did you know that GNR has only one shot that always goes back to the flippers? Only the right (drum sticks) ramp goes back to the flipper every time. The left ramp goes back to the left flipper only when the diverter is up (but it is usually down).
So when I talk about flow, I am talking about how almost every shot in LZ goes back to the flipper (only the dead-end shot and the right orbit do not), and almost none of the GNR shots come back to the flippers.
So in LZ, you are constantly hitting the ball with your flippers. In GNR, you hit it, and then wait for it to go through the pops, or the upper playfield, or in the scoop. GNR has a ton more going on than LZ, but it doesn’t have any consistent flow to the shots (but it also isn’t a sniper game like JP or AIQ).
Combine that with A TON of multiball modes and you are either hitting the ball and waiting for it to bounce around before coming back to the flippers, or are just spamming the flippers to keep up with the regular 4 and 5 ball multiballs. It also has the worst plunge in pinball (but don’t worry, because LZ has the second worst plunge). It’s also worth noting that for all of the cool stuff on the playfield, GNR doesn’t really have any toys (other than the bad-ass Gibson guitar head ball-lock that I absolutely love).
I’ve said all along that different people like different things, but trying to argue that these two are on the same level in terms of shots is like arguing they are on the same level in terms of packed playfield. It is no contest in both cases. Now which of those two things you prefer is up to each person to decide.
You seem to want to decide for everyone that GNR is better and then insist on arguing about things that are not arguable. GNR may be better, but the shots aren’t...
You’ll see what I mean once you play them.
I’m sorry,did you say something?
Quoted from SWfan:How was the flow?
Not near as good as Star Wars!
The game you played was setup very easy.
Quoted from DrJoe:I just played a 45 minute game on GNR. Factory settings. Really fun game but I’m not sure I’d want to play a 4 player game with good players.
Quoted from SWfan:They would rank like this:
1. LZ Left Ramp
2. LZ Right Ramp
3. LZ Center Ramp
4. GNR Right (“drum sticks”) Ramp
5. LZ Left Orbit
https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/108846 GnR is clearly the winner as stated up top and there are a ton of pinball and Led Zeppelin fans that are disappointed. Mine as well remove that third flipper on the pro. Time to move on guys, enjoy the jukebox!
Quoted from Lamberger:https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/108846 GnR is clearly the winner as stated up top and there are a ton of pinball and Led Zeppelin fans that are disappointed. Time to move on guys, enjoy!
Ok, im holding ya to it 
More pitch makes the game easier. It reduces side to side motion for less out lane drains.
Quoted from DrJoe:Wrong. 7 degree pitch,
Quoted from romulusx:Not near as good as Star Wars!
Truer words have never been spoken...
Quoted from SWfan:Truer words have never been spoken...
I really need to remember the little sarcasm emoji!
Quoted from SWfan:So when I talk about flow, I am talking about how almost every shot in LZ goes back to the flipper (only the dead-end shot and the right orbit do not), and almost none of the GNR shots come back to the flippers.
Ah ha, finally! Now I know what “flow” is... it apparently means lots of shots are fed back to the flippers in a risk free fashion. Based on this I prefer games without flow.
One down, one to go, although I suspect I’ll never recognize flow in a rap song.
Quoted from SWfan:LZ Pro shoots 1000x better than GNR
IMG_20200427_232017 (resized).jpgQuoted from DrJoe:I just played a 45 minute game on GNR. Factory settings. Really fun game but I’m not sure I’d want to play a 4 player game with good players.
I'd be draining on purpose after 15 minutes. 3 hour four player game? No thanks.
Quoted from jalpert:More pitch makes the game easier. It reduces side to side motion for less out lane drains.
The right pitch makes the game flow properly, and gives the right feed out of the plunger lane and orbits. Mine plays correctly at the 6.9/7.0 pitch. I’m well aware of the affect of pitch, thanks though.
Long game times aren’t from a pitch change of .1-.3 degrees. They are a combination of the style of game (mostly multiball with long ball save times, and multiple add-a-ball options), combined with factory software giving many extra balls. These factors can be tweaked in the code updates and/or settings.
The game has its strengths for sure. The sound and light show is second-to-none. The risk vs. reward of cash out vs. continue is great. But, when you play 5 or 6 “songs” in a game (each a multiball with long ball saves and add-a-ball), plus booster multiballs before each song, plus tour multiball, coma multiball (did I miss one?).....let’s just say the autoplunge coil gets a workout and games can run long.
All I'm saying is, I've seem some very good players play this game. The very best ones can occasionally have a 30+ minute game. I don't believe the vast majority of players are playing more than 1 or 2 songs in a game.
This is based on games I've seen people play, and videos I've seen online. You are saying 5 or 6 songs and 40+ minutes is standard and I'm sure that is not the case.
Quoted from DrJoe:But, when you play 5 or 6 “songs” in a game
Quoted from DrJoe:I just played a 45 minute game on GNR. Factory settings. Really fun game but I’m not sure I’d want to play a 4 player game with good players.
GNR is crazy easy to keep the ball going. Holy crap when I play Earthshaker or Funhouse in league, the damn games take forever. GNR is not a league pin.
Quoted from Guinnesstime:GNR is crazy easy to keep the ball going. Holy crap when I play Earthshaker or Funhouse in league, the damn games take forever. GNR is not a league pin.
Careful, the cheerleaders around here don’t like frank discussion about gameplay. And yes, GNR as a league game would take well over an hour, unless extra balls were disabled and the software settings set up tough.
Quoted from DrJoe:Careful, the cheerleaders around here don’t like frank discussion about gameplay. And yes, GNR as a league game would take well over an hour, unless extra balls were disabled and the software settings set up tough.
True, but hey it's ok to have easier playing pins in the home, just not league.
Quoted from PokerJake:I'd be draining on purpose after 15 minutes. 3 hour four player game? No thanks.
That's why I got rid of LOTR. It actually caused me to burn a Christmas roast because the game wouldn't end. A journey, indeed.
Quoted from beelzeboob:That's why I got rid of LOTR. It actually caused me to burn a Christmas roast because the game wouldn't end. A journey, indeed.
LONG games. I wish I'd just have kept it around, but honestly I'd need to not play the game for like a year. You play 45 minutes, then get no further than before, then you lose your desire and your roast!
Same for me with GOT Premium. I enjoyed it, but it was time to move on.
Quoted from branlon8:Ah ha, finally! Now I know what “flow” is... it apparently means lots of shots are fed back to the flippers in a risk free fashion. Based on this I prefer games without flow.
One down, one to go, although I suspect I’ll never recognize flow in a rap song.
It doesn’t need to be a safe return to the flipper to have flow, but it does need to go back to the flippers in some manner (orbits and horseshoes aren’t technically safe but still promote flow). But in general, in my opinion, if you execute a shot cleanly, it should be a relatively “safe” result.
Quoted from SWfan:It doesn’t need to be a safe return to the flipper to have flow, but it does need to go back to the flippers in some manner (orbits and horseshoes aren’t technically safe but still promote flow). But in general, in my opinion, if you execute a shot cleanly, it should be a relatively “safe” result.
Man you can quit with the flow lessons most people here already know.
Quoted from romulusx:Man you can quit with the flow lessons most people here already know.
If you played either of the games, then you might have something relevant to say.
Quoted from PokerJake:If you played either of the games, then you might have something relevant to say.
I may have not played either one but one things for sure GnR will be game of the year and LZ will not because it’s so fucking stripped down ugly!
Quoted from romulusx:I may have not played either one but one things for sure GnR will be game of the year and LZ will not because it’s so fucking stripped down ugly!
There's a joke here, but my Momma raised me right. 
Quoted from Hayfarmer:But you don't own either one so why do you care so much?
This is the thing that I'm really curious about. The GnR crowd...many of whom don't even own the machine and have no vested interest in it...see fit to consistantly rag on LZ. I wonder what a licensed psychologist would say about this... 
Quoted from romulusx:I may have not played either one but one things for sure GnR will be game of the year and LZ will not because it’s so fucking stripped down ugly!
Who chooses what is the game of the year? Nobody that matters. The only persons opinion of a game that matters to me, is me. What does game of the year mean? Absolutely nothing, especially with what, 4 or 5 games released...lol. LZ plays better, most people play their games, not look at them. LZ looks pretty good too, again you probably haven't even looked at either one in real life.
Quoted from romulusx:I may have not played either one but one things for sure GnR will be game of the year and LZ will not because it’s so fucking stripped down ugly!
Did you really just say, "I have not played either one but..."?
Quoted from beelzeboob:This is the thing that I'm really curious about. The GnR crowd...many of whom don't even own the machine and have no vested interest in it...see fit to consistantly rag on LZ. I wonder what a licensed psychologist would say about this...
They would say you obsessed with trying to convince us of liking what you do!
I don't give a shit what you buy.This all started with the disappointing introduction of this Zeppelin pin.Most people were shocked how bare playfield and how bad the artwork was,many of them well known artist on pinside.And then Stern fans started getting overly defensive about LZ .Lets all agree to disagree and buy the pin we want!
Quoted from SWfan:Did you really just say, "I have not played either one but..."?
Haha. Hes an expert. Just ask him
Quoted from romulusx:They would say you obsessed with trying to convince us of liking what you do!
I don't give a shit what you buy.This all started with the disappointing introduction of this Zeppelin pin.Most people were shocked how bare playfield and how bad the artwork was,many of them well known artist on pinside.And then Stern fans started getting overly defensive about LZ .Lets all agree to disagree and buy the pin we want!
You keep saying that then 2 posts later you're talking shit again. Buy 1 or the other then talk all you want. I bought a lz. Will be happy with it. Im going to give gnr a chance after I play it more than once. Highly doubt you will buy either, prove me wrong
Quoted from romulusx:I may have not played either one but one things for sure GnR will be game of the year and LZ will not because it’s so fucking stripped down ugly!
GNR and LZ aren’t even competing for game of the year in 2020. LZ isn’t eligible for the 2020 ballot so it will be game of the year in 2021!
Quoted from romulusx:They would say you obsessed with trying to convince us of liking what you do!
I don't give a shit what you buy.This all started with the disappointing introduction of this Zeppelin pin.Most people were shocked how bare playfield and how bad the artwork was,many of them well known artist on pinside.And then Stern fans started getting overly defensive about LZ .Lets all agree to disagree and buy the pin we want!
The problem where you lose credibility is that you attack all views that don't say GNR is great and LZ sucks. I played both and have no dog in this fight as I am not looking to buy either and I also like both JJP and Stern games (look at my ratings!).
I gave an honest "review" of both games, after playing both, to give some real info about how they played because so few people have been able to play either, let alone both. Instead of responding by thanking me for the info, or asking me specific questions, you bashed me for not unequivocally declaring GNR the winner and then doubling-down when I had the nerve to say that LZ shot better. The only way that behavior makes sense is if you simply want everyone to agree with you, which is particularly difficult for someone to do when you haven't played either game yet and are basing 100% of your opinion on some combination of bias and watching videos of others playing and talking about the games.
You keep being you, but just in case you really wanted to understand why you are getting push-back-- this is why.
Quoted from romulusx:They would say you obsessed with trying to convince us of liking what you do!
I don't give a shit what you buy.This all started with the disappointing introduction of this Zeppelin pin.Most people were shocked how bare playfield and how bad the artwork was,many of them well known artist on pinside.And then Stern fans started getting overly defensive about LZ .Lets all agree to disagree and buy the pin we want!
I don't try to convince anyone of anything. STh (for instance) is and always has been awesome. Nobody agreed with me. I'm still loving it. And I wasn't disappointed with LZ at all. I'd go nuts if I had 10 multiballs to wade through in a game, but that's just me. Play what you like. Who gives a shit? The hate for LZ is ridiculous on this site. I should be used to it after GOT, SW, and STh...but I guess the shortsightedness still pisses me off after all these years.
Quoted from romulusx:I guess I’m not getting much back up today.Oh that’s right they’re all playing their GnR’s today!Adios Bitches!
They'll be back in 45 min after their game ends...lol
Quoted from PokerJake:They'll be back in 45 min after their game ends...lol
It's hard to play Sterns when it's not a level playing field 
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