Quoted from SLCpunk2113:
Jack doesn’t give AF about DMCA
I bet Jack would give AF about getting three strikes and having his Twitch channel shut down.
You're a moron if you stream and aren't conscious of the DMCA issues right now.
Quoted from BigT:
I don’t understand DMCA. I haven’t heard of this until now, did a google search and still don’t understand. Can you give me cliff notes reason why a LZ game can’t be streamed.
Cliff Notes version:
DMCA = Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Basically covers copyright law on the internet. One tool it provides copyright owners is a DMCA takedown, which is a way for you to say things like "hey, you used my music in your video without my permission". On YouTube that usually means your video gets demonetized, so you can't make money off ads on it. Sometimes the opposite happens, and ads get put on it, but the money doesn't go to you, it goes to the copyright holder.
On Twitch it's a little different, they don't have the tools YouTube does. So long story short, if you get hit with a DMCA takedown, a copyright strike, Twitch will just delete your video archive (the VOD).
If you get three of those strikes? Account nuked.
Here's the thing, and where it turns into a problem. Stern doesn't have to flag Jack. The band doesn't have to know or care. There are copyright bots that just crawl through streams, recognize songs, and auto flag it. You can get strikes for Led Zeppelin songs, played off the pin, even if Stern sanctioned the stream. The music is licensed for the game, not your Twitch stream, basically.
Anyways, long story short, if you play a game, pinball, videogame, whatever, that has music in it, you're at risk for a strike. A lot of streamers are on edge now because of it. Those three strikes could hit you all at once just from a few streams of LZ, ACDC, and Kiss games. Never really know.
I have a friend who got a strike on YouTube from a video three years later. Bot found it, sent the notice. It sucks.
I don't think it's fair to call anyone at Stern 'lazy' on this game. It's super painfully obvious that the license was a huge pain in the ass to work with. 10 songs alone says it all, even before you look at the Premium art package, or realize the slingshot plastics are just gradients because someone probably couldn't get a design on them approved. I sympathize with whoever did the art, I'm sure it was frustrating and they had better ideas that were shot down.
It is what it is, Stern could have said "You know what? We'll pass on this game, you guys are busting our balls to the point where we can't do good work", but then you'd have no Led Zeppelin pin. I hope the people who buy it enjoy it. As we often say, you don't play the cabinet art.
10 songs though, even though they picked great ones imo, that hurts. You're gonna get tired of them faster with that few.
Personally I think that with all the bands in the world it would be smart to skip the ball breakers, and just work with the ones who actually want a pinball. I haven't played GNR, I have no idea if it's any fun, but it's just amazingly obvious even without knowing the Slash story that there were no uphill fights to get that game looking and sounding right.
Surely there are lots of popular bands (popular enough to sell a few thousand games isn't the highest bar to cross really) that would be stoked to be immortalized in a pinball and wouldn't send their lawyers to quibble over everything. If I was in a rock and roll band and Stern came calling I'd be asking them if they could fit MORE songs in the game, and sending over my favorite artist to do the packages. Maybe that's just me, but there have to be other musicians with that kind of spirt.
Ice, I swear, I don't know how this happened, but you have become the voice of reason on Pinside. You switch to double malt or something?
Quoted from TreyBo69:
Part of the problem is you gotta get the designer on board with the theme. Steve Ritchie ain't getting hyped to make [removed] the pinball machine.
I have nothing but respect for The King. I'm not trying to push him out the door to retire.
Maybe it's time for some younger designers who want some w** p**** to do some band games?
Nothing wrong with Led Zeppelin as a theme. It's a little old man, but a little timeless, just like pinball. And maybe pinball isn't ready for a Young Thug pin. But there's gotta be a lot in between. What's the 'youngest' band to get a pinball? Rob Zombie I guess?
I think the answer to this is clearly no. They got a folder of stuff they were allowed to use from an agency and everything had to be approved afterwards by someone at the firm who had a checklist of what was approved for use or not is likely how it went down. Sure they charged them by the song too, which is why there are only 10.
The LE is just the Swan Song art, the blue comes from the bottom.
I don't blame anyone for being disappointed, but you shouldn't be mad at the people at Stern who made the game. Some licenses have more freedom than others. That's why Metallica is a great pin and this one will probably be a fan favorite of a few and mostly unmemorable afterwards. Without creative spark it's hard to make something stick. Dirty Donny and Sparky and everything made for something original and cool. This is just the same stuff the people licensing Led Zeppelin lunch boxes have access to.
It's no different than Willy Wonka looking exactly like the slot machine because JJP was given the same standard assets, it comes with the territory with some stuff. As long as it keeps selling it will keep happening.
Never again might be a bit much, but yeah, it reminds me of Star Trek TNG. What are the chances that we'll ever see another game like that, where so much of the cast came in to record original voice lines? (Actually, now that I'm writing this I guess sorta TSPP, just not as many people needed.) We're lucky these days to get phoned in lines from a single actor.
But you're right, it's special when everything lines up that way. I really don't like people calling Stern lazy or seeing the personal bashing of the people involved. Just not fair or cool to me to see it.
But the difference between a product where everyone on all sides comes together to really care as opposed to just collecting the license check and sending the asset pack is huge. Stern could avoid a lot of bellyaching, and sell more games, if they just picked licenses where the people involved gave a crap about pinball. Slash cared, JJP cared, it showed. I'm sure Ritchie cared, but clearly LZ's management company gave zero f***s about this game.
I personally want to see Stern and every company succeed. They might hate to admit it, but I do think they get the message when people speak up and get mad over stuff. You gotta hold the line though, you can't just buy every 'dream theme' because it got the logo on the box. Reward the packages that really sing, and you'll probably get more of them.
Quoted from 27dnast:
Rick and Morty?
I haven't had the pleasure of playing one yet, but it's clearly it's an excellent example of everyone caring for sure and the end result reflecting it. Spooky doesn't have JJP budgets, and the voice cast isn't as large at TNG, but yeah, I'd count it 100%. Everyone involved has gone more than the extra mile to make that game what it is.
Everybody can spend their money on whatever they want. But for me at least there are games that have real passion, and games that don't. Stern is clearly capable of doing high passion projects, where it shows that the extra effort went into it. They also have games that feel like they're only there to fill the production line.
It's not a personal judgement on them or the people working there, I know for a fact that they work hard on all of them. People talk sh*t about "phoning it in" on some titles, but I promise you even those games were a lot of work. But the magic only happens on some games, and those are the ones I find interesting.
I'm not rich, just a pretty blessed middle class dude. If there's a game I really want I can find a way to buy it, but it's not a casual purchase for me to throw $6k+ on something. If you won't even notice that much missing in your couch then more power to you I guess. Still, just because you like the band or the logo or whatever's on the box, don't you want more of an emotional connection to justify that kind of money on a toy?
I know it's nothing new for people to order the LE sight unseen, but watching this parade of people trying to get their deposits back just makes me feel like we could all stand to take a breath and slow down and watch for what matters. While still buying games and enjoying the hobby.
Quoted from gibsonrd:
LZ are notorious for suing anyone that uses their music or anything related to the band without permission. I'm wondering if they will act if anyone produces extras/mods for this game.
What will happen is someone from Stern will send you a polite note asking you to please stop. They're obligated to protect the license. A couple under the table? Sure nobody will care if it's kept quiet. Take out ads and start new threads to advertise it? Probably get that note.
A company that doesn't follow or care about pinball. The reality is that Led Zeppelin isn't gonna catch you making a translite for people on Pinside, they don't care about pinball either. But Stern might, or probably will, they read Pinside. And they want to just handle it nicely, nobody there wants to report you to LZ's lawyers for a real C&D.
As is their right, not mad, just to be clear. They gotta hold up their end of the contract. And now that they sell their own mods too I can definitely see their side of things, they're paying for the license. They don't want to have to compete with someone who isn't. Mostly though I think it's about them doing their due diligence. Don't wave it in their face.
Any future Stern mods I end up doing, if any, will steer clear of trademark issues. Just not worth it. All I can recommend to anyone else is don't spend a ton of time or money doing up a mod that violates LZ's trademarks because it might get that polite note.
Rick has nothing to do with any movie-licensed game, separate thing. If you were selling something based on an original Bally Williams game you'd need to talk to him. Or something he does have the license rights to, like the Universal Monsters games.
Mods are what they are. For some people they're a full time business. Some people have stores or sell on eBay. Some of us just do it on a small scale for the community here (like me). I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do, just save some potential heartache if you spend a lot of time or money making something with LZ branding on it. It will probably get shut down.
Quoted from coop:
To be honest I'm grieving a little bit. I think others are as well and this is the only place where anyone would understand me. I'm not trying to cancel Led Zeppelin the pin before I’ve played it. I'm more just sharing my feelings about what I’ve seen so far.
FWIW I understand completely.
Pinside has all types of folk.
Some people just like to shit on stuff and troll it up. Some people get mad when people post their opinions or say something negative and get defensive about every perceived slight on a game. But I think the bulk of people who come into threads like this acting disappointed just wanted something they could fall in love with.
Not everyone has the eye or language to discuss design, but they know what they like, and what they don't. Personally I'd rather gush about how much I love something than bitch about how much I'm let down. But what can you do when you have your hopes up for a theme and get dealt an asset pack cut and paste job?
ACDC is one of the ugliest games I've ever owned. Maybe the ugliest. It wasn't like offensively bad, but it was just kind of a mishmash cut and paste Photoshop job for the most part. I had a Premium, so no face on the playfield at least, and I actually didn't mind the translite even though I did an alt for fun, but really, an unlovely game.
I dunno how it stacks up now, but for a long time people thought it was one of the best games Stern had ever made. Far as I know it still owns the Stern sales record. Designed by the same guy who did Led Zeppelin. And some guy named Lyman was around too I guess.
So no, art isn't everything. It's all we have to talk about now until we see some gameplay though.
Also, just gonna say this: those of us who have been vocal for years about the bad photoshop art packages? It worked. However much credit we get, we definitely get some for that changing, I firmly believe that. And when the hand drawn stuff starting showing up? We said all the nice things about it. Stern games have never looked better overall.
Caught like a minute of the Instagram feed, hardly enough to get more than a glimpse of an impression. Glad people are enjoying it. It's a Ritchie game with Zeppelin music, dunno what else you expected as far as vibe and speed. If that's enough for you be happy. If it doesn't float your boat, well, there are so many options these days.
Criticism of things like the art feels fair to me, but no reason to just try and tear the game down if it's not for you. Keep it constructive.
I'll be curious to see the LCD stuff that people are liking, that's often the weak spot for me with modern games, hopefully there's a decent video of it at some point. Sounds like the DMCA issues might make it a pain to see. All I saw was like 3 seconds of what looked like live concert footage.
Quoted from PinBalt:
Highly impressed by how they incorporated all the footage and art in the LCD package. They took everything give and it works. Yeah the Cabinet art could be better but this stream showed that this game will be a joy to play. Expression lighting timed to the music sections was very cool.
Nice, definitely curious to see it. Be ironic if they got a lot more assets and freedom with the LCD than the physical art. Truth is you can do a lot more with low rez assets on a screen than you can printing them, so that might be a factor.
Quoted from PinBalt:
BTW Aurich ... glad to see your efforts on Alien get used and be recognized for that.
I know all about the limitations of licensed assets thing when doing art for a game. I also know how to take my lumps in public for it. I just don't like to see it get personal. I didn't enjoy it, and I know people at Stern don't either. They're human beings, and also love pinball as much or more than anyone else, no reason to trash them as people.
Everyone is a BOM and manufacturing expert, the same way everyone is a lawyer when copyright law comes up.
Stern has a 'formula', and some of their designers are better at working within it to innovate and make the most of it. And some games feel ... well a little formulaic. And yeah, the prices keep going up. But it's like everyone has forgotten what actual cheap Stern games looked like. What modern Stern looks bad next to Austin Powers? Sure not LZ.
Quoted from Guinnesstime:Deleted post
A lot of unrelated BS was tacked onto that relief bill, it's a shit way to govern, no doubt. But, as much as that streaming thing sounds scary it won't have any effect on the kinds of streams we're talking about. It's meant to deal with sites that are more like bootleg TV stations, streaming full shows and movies surrounded by ads. It's about 'traditional' piracy, not incidental use of copyright during a personal stream.
Still didn't belong in the relief bill, but it's not really something anyone involved in pinball or game streaming will ever need to think about.
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