I still believe "woke" means not awake and not asleep. Just "dreaming". Dreaming up idiot ideas and finding the other less than 1% of dreamers on the internet that agree with you.

The ballance you aee talking about is somewhere inbetween half awake and half asleep.

What I see is a lot of the hard earned cash we pinheads have in our pockets will soon be in theirs, at least with my addiction to pinball as feverish as it is these days. I mean, there is some truth to GZ being one of the best Stern Pinballs made since LOTR, and if they can make GOTG playable with software updates, then almost anything is possible. They have seen the whites of our eyes and they have see that halcyon-ic stare as we step up to their latest half baked titles, slap our phones on the IC sensor, and let the dollars just flow out of our wallets like water, both on site and as it’s delivered, white glove to my driveway, (sorry no steps or stairs). We are fools, and the sharks have smelt the blood… god help us.

There are plenty of used games to keep you busy that are cheaper than new Sterns.

Long game Stern may be in trouble. Nib will become unobtainable for hobbyists and that’ll be it. Dissent is already here. Last two years of pandemic money and families not able to spend on traveling are over.

Or…

New blood may prove they’re worth their water-weight and read the tea leaves. Pricing will remain, QC will improve and pay to play will not become popular due to culture of pinball and thus will fade away or just stay minimal.

Why should they as long as people are paying for them?

If the marginal revenue is there they are going to continue to raise the price.

They aren’t in business to make you feel better about the price of a machine. They are there to make money by selling machines.

You are right, when NIB sales start sliding, we’ll see how good their management team is.

It’s not just about reading the tea leaves, it’s how well they have set up the company for down cycles.

By creating demand that can support 1,000+ LEs to generate $4 million ‘extra’ revenue over pros, signs point to they know what they are doing.

Using todays cash to lock in cheaper long term rent, seems like they have a plan.

It seems like the reality is we all have no idea and it is fun to blindly speculate. Maybe he is a woke vigilante fleeing the prison bars of Disney and now he can lead a woke-free corporation……. But from my point of view Gary signed off on the Elvira 40th gouging, the recent price increases, the $500 box of Rush crap worth $99, etc…… so it may not be a lot different in the grand scheme of things.

Agreed but at what cost long term? Bleeding everyone out of the hobby gets them short term profits but then what?

All you brother! Unless i win the lottery, then I buy errythingx2

1) Seth by obvious dunderhead decisions to date at Stern, caused dissension and upheaval in the minds of anyone that has half a brain, from his distributors to especially Stern’s consuming public. He has helped raise prices across the board 40%, but kept the operators increase on the pros a great deal leaner (most likely Gary’s input). 70% of the market is us, the HUO buyers, taken for granted as Seth and new management thinks we are always going to buy no matter how much they stick it to us. (Spooky, AP, CGC, etc. now’s your chance.)
2) The Disney Infinity brand was a colossal failure. Having friends laid off that worked in Seth’s division in that phase of his wokeness’s path of destruction, killing the Disney Infinity brand with high prices and subpar product. The word “shovelware leader” should have been awarded to Seth for his anti-achievements there.
3) Disney+ was somewhat of a dismal failure with real subscriber retention numbers telling the story. Again Seth helped lead a poorly launched, sub tier product out of the gate, with the woke media trying to spin it otherwise.
Things touched by Seth have turned to custard. Why do you think he finally left Disney??? Don’t tell me this very inexperienced pinball CEO with only 1 year under his belt during peak times, is going to do anything different at Stern.

That is why I see my future money going towards used Sterns and artisan pinball…

Many People talk a big game, but not when it counts. I’d bet most will put money down on the next new game regardless if prices continue to rise. The addiction is real. Stern knows this.

Don’t be so sure about that. There is a price ceiling for every business and Stern has gone way beyond that.

And that’s it. All this talk of it’s just business and why leave money on the table is just that. Talk. Because when The Bridge Too Far becomes a reality and Stern is repainting unsold cabinets just like back in the Dark Ages maybe then someone will rethink these decisions.

Hopefully the new guys will utilize the Pinside forum CEOs and finally turn Stern into a profitable company.

You are absolutely correct.. TBird bought a BondLE.

Yes Bond is the last one at woke pricing, lol. Davis plundered me on that title. Enjoy your short term gouging profits, but what about all the next one’s not titled BTTF? Nope not at these high prices. I’ve been an LE buyer up till now, on almost every LE.

There are plenty of used games to keep you busy.. I am sure you can still enjoy the hobby if you want to.

Even BTTF. Jaws. Any title from Stern of JJP. I don’t NEED anything from them. Family, other hobbies, hell, just plain old not spending on anything is preferred.

Criticism of any future products will grow as prices grow. I expect more for my money. CGC, Spooky(prices going higher there too, so they need to reassess), AP ( build a theme anyone likes!), P3, PB. There’s options.

Hope it goes well but I'm pessimistic. Have heard lots of bad stuff about six sigma at work.

You know what they say. If management has rumors about them they’re usually true.

Good fucking luck to anyone who buys into this shitshow going forward.

I’ve never wanted to be more mistaken. We will see soon enough.

I believe the addiction part is real. You can see it in the faces of people as they play… I have seen it in their eyes- I have seen more GZ’s and JP’s sold to guys with just one single great ball under their belts. Stern is minting fun and we foolishly let them rape our wallets on a regular basis. Until that changes, prices will continue to go up. Do “better” drugs ever get cheaper at your dealer’s house? Didn’t think so.

.

I hope the best for Stern, but I can only pray they don’t look on Pinside for title ideas and only for laughs.

Just because it’s your dream title doesn’t mean it’s going to sell well and pay the bills going forward.

It's too early to judge this when the price increases are still relatively new and been the past two years. Stuff like this happens, but a ceiling does get hit at some point. And with more companies than ever putting out new product and growing, it's gonna be interesting to see what happens.

A problem arcades in the 80s and as well as pinball surge in the 90s faced was in large part due to space. Too many companies putting out so much product, yet operators and locations could not keep up. Pinball was popular in the 90s but eventually locations just stopped buying cause they would just stick to the popular higher earning machines and didn't have room to add new. Home collectors have grown but they too can only hold onto so many.... so yes they circulate machines and often flip, trade, buy new and moving around used machines but like everything, there is only limited space for these things.

Abundance supply of new product typically will eventually push used prices down. This "boom" can't last forever.

Are prices going to crater and pinball going to be free? No that's not what is being said, but it means that the prices can't keep going forever nor can the companies just keep expanding their lines and prices upwards forever. Used prices will come down in some areas, and really it feels like it's already happening as we are seeing lot of older less desirable pins being offered at great prices (for current times) cause theres just so much on offer right now and newer machines clearly more desirable at the moment.

Drugs are a resource that a person builds a need for and has to replenish. Pinball still has the issue that they are big, heavy, take up tons of space and living space is also becoming harder to get ahold of. Heck I would gladly own triple the machines I have if I had any room for them.

I remember Six Sigma being shoved down our throats at Motorola Microcomputer in the 80s.

Not being in management, it sounded like a lot of lip service to us actual workers, who were not being paid nearly enough to even consider the gung-ho emotional investment that would be required to make anything of the sort actually happen. It certainly didn't help that we were being subjected to random urine testing for drugs at the same time.

In my mind, it was pronounced "Sick Smegma."

I am surprised to hear it's even still a thing. The idea of Stern implementing it with their largely immigrant labor force seems ludicrous.

Nothing to worry about…Sigma six is for some upper mgt and quality - not the line workers. Just another corporate money making scheme for certification to put some fancy words on someone’s resume. In theory, should make for a higher quality product and help reduce waste.

Six Sigma isn't something that the front line workers need to be trained on or worry about in a manufacturing org. Although they are frequently introduced to the concept so they feel engaged in the process and understand there will be future changes on operations due to it.

In layman terms it is a statistical method to measure errors and reliability in a process so you can identify areas or sub-processes to improve in order to reduce errors.

It's a hell of a lot more effective than listening to a user forum for all the anecdotal stories.

It was actually invented at Motorola so I'm sure there were a lot of growing pains there. In the 90's and 2000's there were a lot of hacks out doing six-sigma consulting for companies that didn't really embrace it.

I have used the concepts in my technology teams. I've found that when they are applied in a targeted area known for issues, it works pretty well. But trying to roll it out broadly and an over arching management tool for everything is less effective.

Chinese made machines... I can't see this ending well.

Most likely nothing more than chest pounding by Seth, wanting a Six Sigma commando style workforce. Feeling for Stern’s workforce and management right now. “Six Sigma Disadvantages: Because Six Sigma is applied to all aspects of the production and planning process, it may create rigidity and bureaucracy that can create delays and stifle creativity.” This is just what a creative company like Stern really needs, lol. We’ll increase quality and drive our workforce away at the same time, the “sick smegma” management mongers muse. This is another reason Davis is driving up prices. We as consumers get to pay for this “sick smegma” system.

Well, you dont haaavvee to..

Stern has got to transition to creating some “services” revenue, DLC+, etc. May not like it but that’s coming. Felt it was years ago

They have done well selling the units and creating the ecosystem.

The new pricing model? Don’t believe it’s gonna work increasing price and quantity on LEs to the extent they did. Pros and premiums? Are the rest of you guys gonna keep dumping $$$ in.

Also, don’t underestimate the ability of a bunch of executive bean counters to F things up royally.

Companies are full of them.

Yes I too bought a BondLE, my top theme pin, and will only buy a must have theme in the future and not many of those left

I have way too many pins as is. I can live happily ever after!

Plus I want to go back to some older games I let go like AC/DC and SM. Try more of the 90’s era games.

It's a very much luxury product in an economy that is presently forcing people to make tough decisions with their paycheck. Wait till all of the credit card spending from the 2022 holiday season hits in Feb. Luxury goods just aren't going to stay in the demand Stern, JJP, Spooky, etc. need them to be at their current pricing model.

So I think the potential for some radical changes in pricing are in the near future, be it changes to model lineups, tiered pricing, add-ons, etc. They're going to have to find a way to make money when people stop buying NIB machines.

But most importantly, it's these guys jobs to make money for the investors, not make us happy. You can bitch at Stern all you want about quality, themes, etc., but at the end of the day, someone paid for the games and Gary and the board have their money. What do they care?

A lot of companies have experienced Covid demand being pulled forward.

Layoffs all over the tech sector and earnings forecasts will be dropping in the 1st across the S&P 500 and many sectors therein.

Higher interest rates are sucking $$$ right out of Consumer’s wallets. Housing has hit a brick wall because of it. If you are a saver you win.

JJP has to backtrack on future pricing after the TS4 debacle

There are plenty of BondLEs available in inventories.

The days of mostly instant sellouts are over. Spooky just saw that with Scooby and TNA

Let’s face it. Their are limits to the market being able to absorb thousands of $10k plus pins, again and again

Will be interesting to see what 2023 brings!

Maybe $15k LEs and $12k premiums and $9k pros?

Bring it! So I can buy the used pins some will be forced to sell…

Honestly, I don't know any broke people buying pinball machines, now or 5 years ago. Those of us with money...mostly still have money. (I include myself simply because I can afford pinball machines, even if I don't want to pay the cost).

I doubt the people you are referring to represent a very large portion of the hobby...unless we start looking at beercades that generally don't make much profit.

I don't know, but when someone starts using "woke" as a clearly-parroted pejorative I stop reading their post.

Well, I woke up this morning, does that count?

Do you also stop reading when someone says Boomer?

According to Webster:

Woke (/ˈwoʊk/ WOHK) an adjective meaning "alert to racial prejudice and discrimination"

Pinball 2000 was a success. Nicastro wanted to make bigger profits. And he was probably sick of pinball.

If Gary Stern was running WMS at the time as a (mostly) labor of love they’d have stuck around. They weren’t losing money as I understand it.

Yes, their gambling game division was blowing away the pinball division profit-wise, making the bean counters think that pinball was a waste of time and effort.

A fine example of how the love of money is the root of all evil. Pinball was sacrificed to make more stupid, evil slot machines.

but would of Pinball 2000 lasted as is? With the video screen?

Where they planing to dump the rom + sound pci card and just use some kind of SSD and pc sound hardware?
Full flash on all cards? Having the base software on masked roms tied to that chipset would of made installing updates to work on newer pc hardware an issue down the road. Even with the flash over lay they may of needed to maybe have to remove the disable update setting.
How much rom space + flash update space would of been taken up by having drives for more chipsets out at the time?

I can see the need for compressed sound with the sound board doing the decompressing to fit into an smaller rom space. But if had an big disk for files then an basic pc sound chip can fit the need.

I respect this line of thinking and see where you're coming from. The part that many people forget was that WMS was a publicly traded company. Neil had an obligation to the board and the shareholders to make decisions in the best interests of the company. Unfortunately that meant lopping off the pinball division. Now, the lack of execution on the sale of the IP to some other functioning entity is beyond me. frobozz I believe said it best that perhaps you don't want to sell it to someone (like Stern) that makes a killing off of it, making you look like an idiot to your shareholders.

At the time Pinball 2000 was being designed, they had to get the entire system out the door in 18 months. You had design guys like Andy Eloff who were used to designing systems with ROM chips. This was at a time when spinning rust was expensive, and forget about Flash. They could only afford that for the developer prism cards. If they were worried about failure in the field (since most of the embedded space was still on ROM chips at the time) and Tom Uban could get XINA into a few megs of space, ROMs were most definitely the lowest cost option in terms of BOM, design time and field support.

Had they been given more time, things like Compact Flash would've been used. Motherboards with integrated sound would've been used compared to the Cyrix based ones that were used in set top boxes, so you could ditch the DCS hardware, which eliminates the entire PRISM card. Nowadays there are enough embedded reference designs to be able to spin up a system on basic commodity hardware and have it be relatively fault tolerant.

They just weren't given enough time, but having looked through that system in depth the past 10 years, they really did a fantastic job with the time and talent they had.

They got to big and failed. They should have left bally in the dust, a gottlieb bally merger would have been more appropriate.

But Williams thought they were bullet proof and bought bally. Never-mind midway was on a spending spree too when got picked up by Williams.

It was Williams < Midway < Bally

In short Williams got too big and spread too thin and add John Pop to the mix and then you have a recipe for bankruptcy.

Williams didn't trim the tree to save the division they paid for it.

You might wanna rethink that.

They bought Bally around 1989.

Between 1989 and 1999 they made a shit ton of money.

It was the downturn in arcade machines across the board that made the pinball operation unprofitable. They had a bunch of people on Addams Family wages and now they’re hitting Champion Pub sales numbers.

People want to vilify the boss guy - but it’s his job to make the shareholders money, at the end of the day.

rd

And where is Williams pinball division today, nada?

WMS goofed big time. Nobody wants to admit that in this hobby. If you read back an earlier post I defended Neil N.

But no, Williams was a victim of their own success and got too blind and big until it was too late again Bally should have died in the late 80s.

But no, the market got saturated and Gottlieb got the raw stenchy deal out of it, until Williams pinball kicked the bucket three years later.

Everyone wanted Williams but everything else got sacrificed to have it but it was short lived and they have but copy and paste sterns with a FOMO theme.