I wouldn't say Stern doesn't care....but the only way to change NIB games from having incomplete code or lack of updates is to quit buying NIB games from any manufacturer for the next 3-6 months and make it known that is why people are not buying. It will never happen but if it did we would see more code updates real quick.

Operators used to be the majority buyers and they did not care too much about code as long as the games earned. That has been the norm for the industry. Now that home/collector market is becoming majority of sales it is becoming an issue/complaint. The problem is that people are still buying games so there is no push to change this.

Keep in mind Stern is in business to make money. If sales slump and their market research says its because of code then they will take action. Each title they produce has projected target numbers/ revenue. Once those numbers are reached life is good.......There may not be enough ROI (Return on Investment) to allocate "dedicated" resources to update code for a game that has reached profit margins. Now for a game that tanked they may realize code can't fix it and move on. If code can increase sales it only makes sense to update it because the license and development is already done.....they are not going to leave money on the table and Kiss sales definitely hurt due to incomplete code for sure......

I believe we will see an update for Kiss but who knows when. I think Stern has bitten off more than they can chew at the moment. They have a very aggressive production schedule with 3-5 titles / year. They are spread too thin with developers/programmers working multiple projects to meet production schedules. Add in the issues/delays and Stern probably has a healthy back log of orders. This means games are selling and there is not enough reason to change how/when code is updated. Look at sales for GB and now BM 66.

Until code becomes enough of an issue to cut into profits then games will ship with incomplete code and updates will be sporadic. Good luck getting enough people to quit buying games due to code...... Stern has mastered the art of creating buzz with each release and creating the illusion that you need to "Buy Now" or you may not get it. And people are more than happy to get in line......

This is it in a nutshell for me. I think they have six? developers. They have two to three games in pre-production at any given time that need resources. Add new platform (spike and spike 2.0) dev work, and all the games they have in production that could use code updates. Too many projects, not enough devs. Something has to give, and it isn't going to be new production or platform, so existing code maintenance takes a back seat until they can catch up.

In a perfect world they could add a couple of resources whose primary focus is code maintenance, secondary backstopping pre-production. I'd volunteer but I doubt working remotely from Canada is an option

I know any game with Lyman on leads is almost assuredly a "Safe bet", but with all the new Pin companies' out there I'm surprised that no one has been able to poach him away from Stern yet by offering a significantly higher salary. It would suck to buy a new Lyman game and then have him leave for another Co. before finishing it. Lyman could theoretically be a free-agent and charge whatever he wanted to do freelance code design. I know for me at least his name carries a lot more weight than any playfield designer that is in the current market. I think he is Stern's strongest asset and if he were to leave and go to a competitor like Heighway or JJP it would crush them. Hopefully some of the price increases brought on by Stern have been re-directed to Lyman in terms of a big fat raise! The guy deserves it!

That's just a scale issue - easily solved with $$. They don't need to change how games are designed, engineered , or constructed to scale from 10 a week to 100. That's just a problem of logistics and up front cost.

No idea how you got to any of that.

I didn't discount development costs at all - just pointed out that is not unique to pinball. I've
Been that product manager in software development setting market pricing and justifying our profitability with the organization for a market leading product.

I think Lyman is smart enough to stay put with the most stable, successful, and productive pinball company.

If you are a writer for SNL are you gonna take a chance on Arsenio Hall's next project?

Yes, which was the original point I think. You were saying that a huge factory isn't needed, used Spooky and DP as examples. But they don't need a huge factory because they don't produce in the volumes that Stern does. If they did, they would need a huge factory, or at least larger than what they have.

I would also guess that increasing your production from 10 to 100 a week could change engineering and construction and possibly design. What if you can't get widget "x" in enough quantities, what if you are producing multiple titles at once and need to share parts as much as possible? Imo that would impact the machine at all levels.

It also just isn't up front cost. You have long term recurring costs like increased rent, power, leasing costs on new equipment. There are also employment costs. Not sure how many people it takes to produce 10 a week, but you would theoretically need 10 times as many to get to 100 a week, or a significant change to how you are building them to become more efficient with fewer employees. Then you need extra people to support those employees in terms of accounting, hiring, training.

I am in software as well, and know nothing about physical manufacturing but I doubt that scaling by 10x is a simple matter solved just by throwing dollars at it.

GLWS!

You left out a bunch of stuff. First of all you're going to have to grease the local politicians for the sudden zoning problems that always come up. Then there's the kickbacks to the carpenters, and if you plan on using any cement in this building I'm sure the teamsters would like to have a little chat with ya, and that'll cost ya. Oh and don't forget a little something for the building inspectors. Then there's long term costs such as waste disposal. I don't know if you're familiar with who runs that business but I assure you it's not the boyscouts.

LOL, yeah you nailed it. And you don't know the first thing about Kurt Vonegut.

Crazy.

From this

To this

From blown away, plays really fantastic, winner for sure... to Stern is garbage and it's almost 5 months from the last update. Hard to give any credence such crazy and wildly extremes. Though it seems to be the pinside way.

On top of that I've been on pinside for 1.5 years and it was very obvious to instantly learn/find who to look for with coding for Stern and the general Stern coding history/expectations. It was totally captain obvious with the Kiss pin release and team info what could reasonably be expected in its coding support/quality. And yet people feign extreme umbrage now.

This is something like the 4th or 5th Kiss code complaint thread on the forum. What's even funnier is/was all the people saying that it will get to Lyman AC/DC, MET, TWD pin levels. Sorry, but captain obvious also notes that is not going to happen.

I personally find Kiss coding OK, nothing crazy good, but not crazy bad either, rather pretty much where I expected it to be with its support team. And its coding is comparable to other pins NOT coded by the few masters of the profession.

There is always going to be a honeymoon period when playing a new game.

I was responding to the statement claiming "It's[pinball] a relatively low volume niche product that requires specialized talented staff and a huge factory to produce"

You don't need a huge factory to produce pinball - you will need a larger factory if you want to produce MORE concurrently, but not simply to produce pinball. Hence the Spooky example. Stern's model does not define the production of pinball.

The reason I say $$ solves it is because you assume revenue will also scale with that production. The need for more $$ is to ramp up the initial investment costs and float the expenses until the revenues kick in. Increasing the run size requires scaling your inventories, labor, and logistics... all things you can source through up front money.. and pay in the recurring model through your sales of the produced product. The capital, increased labor ramp-up, and risk of getting stuck with that inventory, is what balances people's ambitions for production size. TL:DR - its more money and more risk to target higher production.

Logistics don't scale linearly across the board.. but the things you need to do you can largely solve with $$. The general idea how how pins are built is already primed for mass assembly unless you somehow ignore all the practices in place already.

My feeling is as long as people are spending up to $8000 for machines they have never seen or played, they do care. About that.

Honeymoon? That would be from something like "I really enjoy the pin" to "I don't like the pin". Not the super mental whiplash from "really fantastic,.. winner for sure" to "Stern is shit". And frankly, I thought adults would be able to reasonably acknowledge and at least try to account for their emotions, as well as try to be little objective, in reporting and posting on new games. That often does not seem to be the case on Pinside. It shouldn't be like talking to 10 year olds.

I gotta say Pinside is the most crazy wild almost-anything goes forum I've ever been on (>20). And I've decided it's best to just visit for the drama, because it never disappoints here.

I"m ready to sell my Kiss. This is ridiculous. I don't play it because of the code. Stern, thanks for ruining the NIB experience. Never ever
again.

Some people simply get excited whenever a new game comes out.

For the record, it has been over a full year between fattdirk's two comments. That's hardly a sudden 180; if the comments were made a day apart, that would be a different story. Plus, in the past year, a number of things have changed with Stern.

Actually most everyone get's excited when a new game come out. However most adults do not put on display such emotional extremes. Time between posts has nothing to do with the 180, it's about the content.

I wouldn't consider them "emotional extremes". Opposite opinions, sure.

It's ok to change your mind. There's nothing wrong with that.

show-me-the-money (resized).jpg

A bunch of grown men playing with expensive toys, why would anyone be surprised with emotional responses. I find the defense force to be far more irrational.

Who was the lead programmer on KISS?

Lonnie

Or pinheads have more money then brains

Don't forget how Stern trolled us with the KISS update.

What, now we have emotion police?

Quite an interesting interpretation. You'd be a good politician. But very unconvincing. Let's look at some of the words in the two OP posts.

Original post, "I've been blown away", "the new Kiss machine just does it for me","a winner for sure", "tight yet satisfying", "I really enjoy the steep ramp", "This is a real winner", "The game is just great".

Recent post, "I was so disappointed", "they just don't care.", "The company just doesn't give a shit","I'm so pissed", "ignoring the obvious PF issues", "Stern is garbage", "Prove me wrong".

It all chock full of emotional words, and so much description of feelings and then conclusions drawn from those feelings.

Holy spin. It isn't about emotion policing, it's about how such extreme bipolar and contradictory posts are crazy. Not exactly a recipe for credibility.

That was a bullshit move on their part.

Keep the faith fattdirk. I'm starting to look at new pins like a bowl of a new flavored ice cream.

You order some because you had ice cream before and you loved it. The flavor must be good because everybody in line ordered the new flavor and had to try it. You get it, you love it, you want some more of it. It tastes good, but man wouldn't it be sweet with some toppings on it (that you already paid for).

After waiting for the toppings, your ice cream starts to melt and it feels and looks different than what you paid for. Sure, it still looks and tastes the same, but not as good as when you first laid eyes on it.

You complain about it, but other people around you tell you to be happy because there are starving children around the world who go to bed hungry at night, so you should be happy that you can afford to get ice cream in the first place.

One customer tells you that is why they never sway from the flavor they know is good and you should know better than to take a risk like that.

At least I didn't compare to buying and selling cars. I'm going to get me a bowl of ice cream.

Lol, very true

It's more like the pricy burger joint that couldn't bring me my shake until I was done eating.

I have no idea why someone changing their mind as a result of their own personal experiences matters so much to you.

I am staying optimistic, because before the last update Stern WAS hyping the release of a huge update (I remember seeing a picture somewhere of someone playing the game and the DMD showed 2.0 code).

I think what happened was they found a bunch of bugs and to save face they released something - our current version 1.28.

Am I disappointed that I shelled out big bucks on an LE and am still waiting on code? Yes. But I have other Stern games that the code is GREAT on, so I would disagree with the blanket statement that "Stern just doesn't care".

My guess was that the code was due to be released earlier, but let's face it, it really isn't a moneymaker for them and they need to keep new games running down the line to keep the lights on and employees paid. The current PF issues only complicated things and the KISS code just got put on the backburner. There is SO much potential for the cities to make that game incredibly deep I just can't imagine that won't happen. (OP can tell me to put down my crack pipe now)

My prediction is we see version 2.0 before the end of the year, but I have ZERO evidence to support that statement...

These are the reasons I will never buy another Stern. I had met pro and sold it.
I'll never spend that kind of cash for and incomplete product from them. Way too much cash for something left undone.

You just quoted Rodney Dangerfield in "Back To School". LMAO!

You sure you're not a politician? Nice, but that is a class straw man logical fallacy. Merits zero attention. Impressive though again.

Well, lucky you're around to let everyone know who's credible and who's not. Must be the credibility police then.

Pinside Politician Police has a nice alliterative ring to it. Are you a fan of pinball, but also running for office? Beware!

It IS interesting and worthwhile to comment on and discuss the sub currents of what drives posts in some threads on pinside. Be it JJP love/hate, Stern love/hate, shady business practices/disasters, agendas, behaviors, trolling, posting addiction, etc. There is a lot to learn and patterns to pick up. Lucky everyone that your here to police that. Otherwise we'd think knowledge is power.

Ah, I see. Looks like you're trolling. Not sure why here and now, but ok. Whatever floats your boat, I suppose.

You're nothing if not consistent.

bottom line is that a real kiss code should have been released by now. i liked my kiss when i got it and basically knew it needed code update. we were thrown some little update that was a slap in the face. we want the new code asap.
nothing wrong with that.
the pin does not get played anymore by me. thats why i want the new code asap. selfish of me!!

1a82va (resized).jpg

I can choke down a two year code completion time line with small updates here and there, to me it keeps things interesting with the pin. I will however not tolerate FUBAR Play fields, noisy fans, peeling decals, code updates to fix hardware issues and less of a machine for more money. I mean look at a STLE compared to all the other LE variants, save TWDLE IMO........WTH happened with recent LE's? I used to think the code will get there eventually, but now I am not so sure with all the recent debacles over play fields. I just hope when I get back from deployment my LE's will not have ghosting issues, which is why I am moving my customers away from Stern.

If people would stop buying NiB Stern's right off the line this problem is not exist. Why do they need to support machines when they sell out before they are even fully made?

I refuse to buy any of these new cheap quality games. I was shocked that Metallica Pro had cheap plastic bulb holders and a latch for lockdown bar. Also had a playfield issue that Stern has yet to do anything about. No more new Sterns for me...

From Stern's FB page today:

Kiss update (resized).jpg

"Stay tuned" makes my blood boil.

If I were a Kiss owner I would be like "fuck you"

There needs to be some viable competition in the pinball industry because Stern are just gaudy Kings of Pinball. Bring on Alien, bring on JJP #3.