Do the large inserts do anything yet?

Rob

Here is my thought(s) on this. I still think Stern makes excellent pins, but their customer service needs some serious work. Would it hurt to post on their Facebook page or on Pinside what they are working on in terms of code updates? From what I understand, every time I heard a pinsider get on Sterns Facebook question and ask a question about an update or an issue with the manufacture of their pin (defects), Stern blocks them and ignores their question? Really? Didn't that Jodie guy use to be a pinsider before he got the job of marketing with Stern? Correct me if I'm wrong on this. If he is, he fell into the same mode. I just thought after Stern hired him he could act as a liaison between the company and its fans, especially since I'm sure so many are here on Pinside.

Hats off to Aurich though. He was in the same boat and I remember when he first came to Pinside. The boy made some excellent back glass art and really garnered our respect from doing those jobs. Because of his artistic talent, Heighway pinball noticed it and gave him a job with them to help design the art on their Alien pin. He always kept us posted on what he could tell us and sometimes got backlash from doing so, but at least he threw us a bone to chew on. Yeah, I'm bragging on him, but he help wet my appetite in wanting to get the Alien pin (a dream theme for me). Plus, Andrew comes on once in awhile to keep us updated as well, so thank you sir. Even Jersey Jack just recently posted a video on YouTube on an update coming out soon and a fix on a pinball machine (I think it was for the Hobbit). Again, thank you sir.

Does Stern read Pinside? Don't know, don't care. I'm hoping they do, to at least hear our suggestions and complaints. Communication and love for the fans is what it should be all about. I'm not saying Gary Stern is like JPOP or that idiot who screwed so many guys out of their money on that Predator pin (which makes me sick for those guys. It could have happened to anyway of us on the pre-order hysteria), I'm just saying talk to your buyers.

On a side note. Hasbro (the big toy maker) every year listens and asks their fans and collectors what action figure they would like to be made in the Star Wars line. After a poll is completed, Hasbro takes the winner and makes that figure usually within the year. Sometimes the character is so obscure from the film (passing glance or just a creature in the background) that you don't even know they're in the film. Something nerdy I'm sure, but at least they listen to the fans.

This thread is hilarious from my standpoint as a software developer - but I absolutely get it from the consumer standpoint.

Software is hard. The only people who think it's not are the ones who don't do it. They think it should be cheap and perfect. There's no magic formula: Finding bugs is incredibly difficult in regular software because it's so hard to predict what/how people will click on - but finding it with all the permutations of a pinball game, with the uncontrolled ball bouncing all over the place? We ought to be amazed these games are released at all! My sense is that KISS (sadly) did not sell as well as GOT, Metallica, TWD, GB and now Batman... Buy another dozen machines and maybe they'll take a meeting.

It's natural to want a better product as a consumer, and expect a game to be "done" when it's released. Well, it is. The game works; I've played it. Yes, there are unrealised areas of potential.. But you bought and paid for the theme, not a rival to one of the greatest games of all time

I'm pretty sure they do a lot more than that.

I have the game too. Which inserts are you referring too?

Umm, inserts that don't do anything (per OP). I think this is why your definition of done is different than many others. Work at Stern?

lol. I never even noticed them there. lol

Well it took about 6 code updates for the Fish Tank lamp above the right ramp to light on TWD. So there is always hope.

I completely understand your frustration Dirk. However I don't think they've given up on KISS just yet. It's only been just under a year and a half since release. And we all know how long they can take to finish code. As far as the playfield issues go I think the reason why they're so behind is because they are trying to remedy that problem. They know people are pissed and to have to fix issues like this smack dab in the middle of production really screws stuff up. Again, I understand your frustration. I just hope and pray they get their shit together for the BM66 I plan to get. It would be nice though if Stern kept us informed on what codes they were releasing soon. It's annoying that they keep everything quiet like some super top secret government experiment.

You guys should watch Steve Ritchie talk about Stern at Pintastic this year:

They are constantly working on code for upcoming games and old ones even not on working hours. They are really passionate about working at Stern and the commitment to you guys even though you guys tear them apart all the time. Yeah sure it would be nice if the cities did something but the game is already fun and they are going to fix the pf issues on GB. If you want a fun themed game that is competitive then buy a Stern. If you want a super deep game that has the bells and whistles that you wouldn't want to put in public so the public can smash it up, then buy a Heighway Pinball, Dutch Pinball, or Jersey Jack game. Anything else you are paying far too much for what you are getting.

Let me apologize up front. I just reread and that came across rude.

My knee jerk reaction is software programmers/developers, like whom I work with, who say after the fact - software is hard. "This is close enough"... "it's not a feature anyone is really using anyway, let's move on." Hogwarts.

Product Management spent time detailing use cases and customer requirements. Developers review, say no problem just dollars and days, provide a timeline, accept job and ask for funding. Then when you review the code and it's not matching up to requirements - "do you really need this?"...."it's close enough".

This is not meant as a condemenation on all developers. Just the lazy ones. Lyman, is not lazy. The others, I can only say their work speaks for itself. I assume you are not lazy either. So my apologies for the unfair comment.

For somebody to work on code, wouldn't they have to play it too?

That might be the holdup right there.

This is the type of post I like. Let the guy vent. Heck, we all at one time wanted a new code for our pins. Being a Kiss owner, I like hearing gripes, complaints, praises, updates, pics and mod ideas from other Kiss owners. Regardless if it's a pin, car, boat, or whatever, we want the best for what we paid for, new world problem or not. Still have to get up every morning to work for our hobbies.

It's pretty simple. If you can't stand waiting for the code and don't want to risk ending up with just an ok game quit buying them until the code is at a point that you are happy with. They will still be making them NIB or you can buy a HUO.

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

I'm an SE at a gaming company and "done" is very loosely defined. It's different with every game and budget is a huge factor. As some one that directly deals with this type of thing all the time I find Stern to be handling this very poorly. If your going to do updates then do it properly. You need to have direct access to the gamer and you need to be super reactive. We count updates in days not months. Stern seems to be completely behind the times as far as software engineering process.

I guess everyone forgot about Steve's real opinions regarding Stern's operational procedures in the late 2000s.
Even a partial defense on his behalf was false.
He "tolerates" things at this point because he remains passionate about pinball as a designer.
That does not mean he believes anything that is being marketed.

OP: you've been on Pinside for 4 yrs and you own an Xmen.
You've probably witnessed the rules progression on Xmen, ACDC, Star Trek, Metallica, and Walking Dead, correct?

If you buy a NIB Stern before rules are done, you have to be patient until the game is complete. Not "until you're tired of waiting", but until the game is complete. It seems to always take far longer than we'd like.

Just be thankful you have enough space, and a large enough wallet to own 13 pins. Those of us with less space and cash, have a much tougher time owning incomplete pins.

Besides, it could be worse: you might have bought the WWE pin!
; )

He just got the X-Men it was mine I suffered the NIB experience on waiting for code and I also had NIB Avengers and I own WWE shame on me

This entire thread is a troll and you come off as a petulant baby.

You should consider selling your KISS, and also posting less.

To the people who don't like WWE!

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Who's Next!

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You want finished code, buy older games. Is it that complicated? Badbilly has it figured out.

Until Stern gets back on track with the playfield issues, the production issues, the out of control pricing, and treats their customers right (ie: NOT deleting things off their FB oage), I am done with them. You start charging $5000+ for your "cheap" version of your game and pull the stuff we have seen lately...no thanks.

I'm a KISS owner and I'm upset about the code as well. The game has everything going for it except for the code.

Would I buy this game again? Probably not. I felt the same way about my Star Trek LE before Dwight took over the code. I just hope I get rewarded for holding on to KISS as I did with Star Trek.

I will say though, it's really nice owning Spider-Man VE and Iron Man VE...no need for code updates (full disclosure, Spider-Man VE did have a very minor update to fix an animation or 2). In regards to GOT, I'm not really sure what more Dwight could do with the code outside of fixing some scoring imbalances and bugs. Hopefully more of the show is added into the game with the newer seasons.

GOT just needs polish. Dwight did a great job with the code out of the gate, and now it just needs a few tweaks, and callouts (lots of callouts, because it is lacking there). However the guts of the rules are great.

Only buy games where if the manufacturer never updates, you can live with them. Or wait until they are done. If they stop making them before the software is done, no sale. That way you are only buying complete games, and if they update it, bonus.

FOMO is the marketing strategy that Hagerty Peterson brought to Stern and it clearly works regardless of any QC/code progress issue that is raised from the end user post purchase.

Everyone that genuinely wants this to change, already knows what needs to be done to force the issue.

You guys just need to stay tuned!

They care just enough to take your money. With all the current issues that NIB games are having you would be a fool to lay down any kind of cash for a Stern game right now. Glad I'm not shopping at the moment.

I'm still pissed that they did not finish the code for Pacman after 35 years.

Those bastards at Bally never cared about their customers.

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It's not crack or nothin', but it's still really bad...

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It's nice to see you aren't prone to hyperbole or dramatic interpretation.

Damn Levi really man? Dirk isnt allowed to be upset because he paid 5-8 grand on a machine that has a shitty code and now he feels like Stern is ignoring the game that he spent thousands of dollars on? Thats alot of money and I'd probably be mad also because ive played Kiss and it damn sure does need work.

Dont let him get to you Dirk, he doesnt think anybodys posts on Pinside are meaningful other than his own. He told me the other day that its posts like mine that make pinside look bad all because I think Ghostbusters is an awesome pinball machine lol. Shame on me for liking a game that has pinball fanatics all over the world excited right now!

Take your meds Levi and sleep it off, maybe you will wake up a happier person tomorrow.........doubtful though!

Stern is running a business and it's all about the bottom line. Sales are probably pretty weak for Kiss so it gets put on the code back burner compared to popular titles like GOT, GB, TWD, Etc. Code can't save KISS and it will never sell well even with code updates. The band is washed more than my 20 year old Levi's and the game just.......is.....so........yawn. Stern needs to forget about these played out band themes. Rolling Stones, KISS, Areosmith = not many people care. Kinda like the golden oldies on the AM radio.....wake up!

Once the base code is down, there isnt too much work to update it if you know the game... and thats if you play it!. I think Lyman proved this as he has a TWD at home if I'm not mistaken. Should all stern programmers have access to the latest machines at home or whilst at work... I think definitely. Its all about rules for me, the deeper the better. Maybe Stern need to reconsider who they are marketing. Its becoming more of a collector market than operator... thats IMHO

You say this like it's a good thing. Do you really believe that Stern don't take this into account when planning production schedules? They are taking advantage of their employees' enthusiasm and commitment in order to maximise their profits, using free labour and short-changing customers in the process. This is one more reason NOT to buy from Stern.

I dont think its the theme that makes sales weak, I think it was the design maybe more than anything. I personally am not a fan of music pins or Kiss either one really, but I gotta say that I think Kiss is the perfect band for a music pin. Kiss Pinball through the years has always been pretty strong. I also think a solid code could make Kiss a much better game, and I also think that Stern owes it to the people that bought the game to make a decent code for it and to complete the game. It's not the peoples fault that bought Kiss machines that the game didn't sell well, its Sterns fault and the game should be completed with a good code update so the people who did buy it can enjoy their machines. I also wouldn't guarantee that a code update couldn't save Kiss, because it definitely saved The Walking Dead. I do however think Stern will fix it and Kiss owners will be happy eventually.

I think Stern should maybe slow down on the number of titles they are making and they could concentrate more on their games. Ghostbusters is an awesome title and needs a ton of work and now they are coming out with Batman in November. They need to get the playfield issue behind them and boost consumer confidence in their product again, fix the issues that GB has, and give it a better code, and then move on to Batman. Ghostbusters could be their best selling machine ever if they get the kinks worked out. Batman is also a killer title but it needs to wait until GB is fixed. They're also making a big mistake by not making a Pro model for Batman.

Sorry for going off topic, rant over.

What in the hell are you talking about? Stern is taking advantage of their employees enthusiasm? I seriously doubt that their employees are enthused about the job that they have lol. Most of them probably hate their job. Also Stern is using free labor??? I dont even know what that is supposed to mean?

I think what Circus Animal is referring to as "free labour" is the willingness of some programmers (like Lyman), to work on machines on their own time at home in order to finish and polish the code of certain games.

Exactly. And if Stern know that this is going on, then they are almost certainly basing production schedules around it, releasing games with crappy code knowing that their progammers and designers will pick up the pieces off the clock.

Well im sure he is paid extremely well and if he works at home, its because he wants to. Stern isnt making him do that and if they arent paying him good enough im sure he will move on and find another job.

Lyman F'ing Sheats is one of the top two pinball programmers in the world. There are not that many places he can work, unless he wanted to change industries. And why would one of the top people in the industry do that? To program widgets? Right.

Duuuuh.....no shit DA! He's probably a good enough programmer that he could program anything he wanted to. He isn't just restricted to pinball machines and dont think for a minute that he woudnt do something else if the price was right. There are also 4-5 companies making pinball machines that would love to hire him, so Stern doesn't have him over a barrel by any means. He gets paid damn good im sure, big F'ing deal if he works at home some in his free time.

Ghostbusters does not need a ton of work. The game was released mostly code complete. The game is all there. There are a couple bugs but if another update never came again, it would still be acceptable. It's way better off than kiss.

Ghostbusters has serious playfield quality issues, the air balls need attention, the balls jumping the outlanes need attention, the game ships with the slimer dragging his ass on the playfield and scratching it up, and alot of people hate the unbalanced scoring which will be fixed with code work hopefully so yeah it does need a ton of work before they move on to Batman. BTW, im not ragging on GB...I love GB and im gonna buy one but if my game arrives at my house with BS things like a bad playfield and the slimer guy scratching my playfield im gonna be pissed off. Those kind of thjngs should not be happening period.

I think the best approach on GB (or any new Stern release) is just to wait a year and pick one up on the HUO market. That will allow some time to see if code becomes more balanced and will also allow you to be more selective in being able to pickup a game without playfield or mechanical issues. Leave all the risks/headaches on the early adopters and that have to have it now.