I was in the wrong thread on this. Finally, can't wait to get more details and see what they actual deliver. It is hilarious the people are using the exact same arguments from video game 25 years ago.

I love the complete lack of subtlety in the marketing. Online functionality, this call for Gen Z nerdy girl in glasses with fiber optic rays shooting out of her eyes. LOL

I am excited to see that they come up with as far as online play, I am excited to see DLC. Really though I most excited just to see if pinball starts where gaming is today and makes a great product. I kinda think they will probable just make all the same mistakes.

Yeah, I don't expect much at launch but eventually I am sure they will try DLC and Online Play and it will be super fun and totally a guilty pleasure to see how they do.

I don't think you understand how achievements work.

No that is not at all what they are. They are personal achievements that are focused almost solely around player engagement. Video games have online and multiplayer ones but the whole point is for you to do them for yourself. It was an easy way to create more thing for people to do. So they would engage longer with the game and in this case a pin. They are things that you try and do that are not directly connected to playing or winning. They can be used to help you learn as well. It is about you and your pin. Things like score 10 this in a row or do this in less than this time. There are secret ones and ones that are insanely hard to do. It really about more stuff for the player to do and enjoy. Its to avoid people seeing the end of the game or wizard mode and stop playing. Once you master the game then you go on and try and get all the achievements.

P.S. There is right way and a wrong way to do everything. Some games have super fun achievements, others just have bullshit ones that are lame or just garbage marketing that try and make you tell your friends or post online.

I just watched the video again, did they actual add a screen for the QR code? If that is a screen clearly they are not learning from the mistakes of others. Why in the hell would you add the cost of a screen?

This honestly made me chuckle, what exactly would you be losing here? Voiding a Stern warranty is like saying hey I won't invite you to my Birthday. I am sure they will just ban the pin from the network as they should.

It's the day of the announcement and I am already nervous with how this is going. There are some really easy lessons here and they kinda stumbled already.

A major one is do not add cost to those that do not want to participate. Also minimize the cost to those that do.

I know pinball is different but in gaming I do not think there has ever been a successful add on and everyone has tried. The golden rule is release it with the new engine, new hardware, pro version whatever but never release an add or expansion to existing hardware.

The QR code is doable if it was just a instruction card the operator had to print once for each pin. There is zero reason to have a screen or create a code in real time. Most TV apps just show you log in on your phone and enter a 6 digit number. That number could easily be displayed on the existing LCD.

I can not figure out why they need a scanner? The only reason I can think of that you need a scanner is if the pin was not online. That doesn't make any sense as the whole thing would be pointless. Does he explain why they need it in the podcast? Is it just redundancy for the event the pin is not online?

I just think operators would have been far more likely to get on board if they just had to print out a sticker and connect the pins online. I don't pretend to know a lot about operators but I have never heard tale of one that likes to put unnecessary money into a pin.

Have they announced a price yet, you not worried this might be priced like a topper, how many pins would you be looking to upgrade. Just curious what guys with lots of pins on route would think? If it was me I would be pissed at the wasteful hardware costs.

Everyone has a phone with a reader in their pocket, why not just print the QR out and stick it in the apron card. Even that is old tech, logins these days are like 6 digit that could easily be displayed on the LCD. You wouldn't even need to scan. I am sure almost everyone has logged in to an app on a smart TV. If the hardware cost is a few dollars then I guess it isn't a big deal. I am not getting that feeling though.

I'm not against the QR code but the reader just seems pointless.

If the QR code was just printed on put in the apron card and you logged in by scanning it with your phone it is the exact same thing. Why install a scanner when every one has one in their pocket. Why would you put the QR code on the phone and the scanner on the pin?

I don't think its an argument its just an observation (Well everything can be an argument here but I am not trying to make this one). You would need to log in to your phone to get the QR code then scan it in the pin, I guess you could do it at home and carry the code around with you. One way requires more hardware in the pin and more costs. It just doesn't seem justifiable, like I said though if this kit is $50 then who cares.

Anyone have a guess what the hardware will cost? I keep hearing $600-$1000 in price increase and that sounds insane.

To me this seems both very over and very under engineered. I don't know the market data but at home this is all over kill. Show a code on the screen and I log in on any internet device this is a one time thing. On location or a tournament just give each pin a simple ID and you can enter or scan. The only retrofit should be wifi if it isn't available. Everything else is software that no one should ever care about.

If you are correct I think this should be a major hit for Stern. I just think of like what you get with a topper compared to the cost of goods and I think this could easily be double that.

Man there is a lot of fear over the internet from guys in an online forum?!

That point is so odd, like catering to the lowest common dominator. They are never going to get it anyway. Just focus this functionality at the demographic that wants it. If you don't have your phone online this is not for you.

I think it's both. If it was the same people at Stern then I think this is a valid argument. The physical part of the machine should always be first and the focus. The software guys are not doing layout and toys so I am all for innovation on that front. There is no reason these things should overlap.

The amount of effort they are putting in to this whole verification and log in is so odd. It's like they are trying to solve problems that don't exist. People just do not care. In gaming no one cares if you cheat achievements and it super easy to do. There will never be financial incentive to do this for a player. General online play means nothing, ranking should only be used to help keep it fun for everyone. The hard core guys will get separated into their own pool so fast and they will know everyone. The vast majority of the users are never going to be above kids on the playground level competition. Why are people acting like this is a serious thing?

Verification has nothing to do with actually verifying the glass is on. It is just an incentive to get people to play on location. All of this is about incentive to engage. They needed a way to justify operators paying for the kit so they created some incentive for people that play at home to drop quarters on location. You guys are taking this way to seriously, it's just marketing.

I like to make fun of pinball for being in the dark ages more than the next guy but lets be serious. There will never be a prize that is not accounted for in the marketing budget. I think even Stern has figured out how to do a simple promotion and has actual accountants on the pay role.

This will be no different than any other promotion being run at any pub or location. They get free promotional shit and they give it away. If your a location and you haven't been able to figure out a promotion this is not for you.

How is that relevant but I am happy to tell you the answer is zero. This is simple a tool to help operators create engagement on their route. This is not some kind of groundbreaking new thing, this is really simple shit. Do you honestly believe no one thought it might make sense to be able to specify the number of prizes or the value before you start the promotion?

You will be able to enjoy this at home. They will just give you a little incentive to enjoy this on location. It may take Stern a little time to figure it out but they will learn that you never ever do pay to win. So they will quickly understand that if have anything that can only be achieved by dropping extra money your fan base will turn on you. They will make it so you can do everything at home you may just get just slightly different vanity on location.

None of this is mandatory, if you don't want this on your route don't do it. I can confirm if you never run a promotion you do not have to worry about losing money buying prizes. I didn't realize this was a difficult concept.

There will never be an exchange of real goods. You think pinball wants to just invite all the hassle they have been trying to avoid for decades by messing with gambling. This is never going to pay out of real money or goods to a player. There is no design concern over a basic promotional event which is all this is. Your never going to agree with anything I post so I'm happy to just let this one go.

You are correct you may be able to set this up based on your pin that can only occur at your specific location and does not interact with any other location. Stern will not go anywhere near this with their network but they may let you do it on your specific machine locally. If it has any kind of connectivity with their system or players in other legal locations it becomes a legalities nightmare that is way above this price point. It is just never going to happen.

I actually said if you copy someone's art in a simple hand drawn sketch for a prototype that has no financial value and was most likely never meant to be public does not make you a thief and a piece of shit. Context matters.

I have seen the video and there is a fine line between a promotional event with a prize or reward program and being able to cash out for money or goods earned in a competition. Different states/countries/regions all have different definitions or what defines gambling, competitive and addictive functionality. Maybe Stern doesn't realize this yet but they have to be very careful with how they reward anything in the real world, especially when that prize could be contested by people in different areas. Even rewarding points that you can use towards a prize you have to be very careful that you can't compete for points. You can collect and earn points by doing things but it get dicey if there is any kind of competition between people. I am sure Stern will have lawyers that sort all this out for them.

Generally I think this is awesome and going to really positive for pinball. The only thing that concerns me is, Stern has made a couple of inexperienced decisions. I’m not sure if they brought anyone in from gaming that has experience. There is a right way to do this and it took gaming decades of wrong decisions to figure out the right way. Actually it is not a right way, there is a good path in the right direction. It takes work and constant learning to stay on that path in the right direction. I just hope they don’t just try and figure this out on their own because they will fail and I don’t know how many chances they have to get it right.

These are the failings of the gaming industry. We learned the hard way never separate your audience. It’s like a house party that you sell VIP access to the kitchen. Everyone that isn’t in the kitchen just goes to a different party. Everyone left in the kitchen realizes the part is dead and goes home. As soon as you see the party start to dip you give out a couple free rounds or kick off an event. Then start drink specials on the hour till dawn. You have to balance it thought, drinks can’t be too strong or to weak. Then your next party everyone is like that last party was a banger that went all night.

Burnout Paradise was a masterclass in online. It was one of those genre bending platforms. It wasn't really a racing game, it was this crazy online car sandbox. It was like a Utopia that you could just go online at any skill level and have fun for hours. With none of the frustration and negativity that plagued the online experience.

Pinside always delivers, in all my years I have never heard anyone that played Burnout Paradise remember that time poorly. It is like Goldeneye everyone that played it looks back fondly on the time. How unhappy were you to think Burnout Paradise was terrible.

Dude it's been almost 15 years and your still pissed. I get it you really do not enjoy the game. I was just being a smart ass. I do not actually believe your taste in video games is a reflection of your personal mental health and happiness.

You did, If you never played it online you never experienced what made it great. It literally changed the landscape of both racing games and open world games. It kinda sucked for Criterion though, they stumbled into a masterpiece and really struggled to live up to the pressure and expectation.

Yeah what made Burnout out great was you didn't have to listen to all the screaming pubescent boys trying to prove how tough they were, they were all busy playing COD. COD has been trying to topple League for the title of the most toxic online experience for over a decade. To each their own but that wasn't my thing. I obviously have a little biased to certain franchises.

If you are the logo I see around town, this could be a significant monthly hit. Plus the cost to retrofit it just doesn't seem to add up for operators. I don't know anything about the coin op business vs home market but I would think there is a lot more juice to squeeze at the home market. It has to be pretty razor tight on route especially right now, I can't imagine an operator jumping on this unless there was a very strong evidence that all cost would easily be covered in the increased revenue. I used to try and play on route once a week, but I haven't been able to in like 18 months, that coin drop must have taken a pretty significant hit. It's not the time to ask for investment from operators, it feels like now is the time to make it free for operators, to help them recuperate.

Didn't we pass this long ago with node boards?

My take away on this. Stern needs to put way more effort into educated and explaining this stuff. Seems like most pinballers think of online with all the negativity and failure from decades ago. There is just so much misinformation and fear towards this technology. Stern clearly needs to provide way more details and their long term vision. A lot of people are assuming the worst.

This is where Stern needs to be clear. Just a simple statement of the number of included modes, wizard, multiball or other and that every insert on the pin will be coded and complete. Then we have a clear definition of what comes with a pin and what is offered down the road as extra.

No argument there, the UV kit is the worst it was clearly part of the pin you purchased. That was the exact shady shit the video gaming industry used to try and get away with. In general they have moved on from that shit it's just bad for business.

I see nothing wrong with paying for future features. If they added a halfway wizard mode on AC/DC I would happily pay for that. Those Cannon inserts are kinda shitty though.

I'm super curious what kind of achievements they will come up with. This is isn't specific to Scorebit but I hope pinball comes up with some real game specific achievements. I get the feeling they are going to get lame shit. Send a friend an a link, advertise for us on social media, play our pins at 5 different locations. If that is all we get this is going to be be very short lived. I don't know anything about Scorebit but I want achievements like hit every target clockwise in less than one minute or play 15 games in a row and never drain on the left for the dresses right award. Fun silly stuff that you have to hunt and search to discover, I want threads on Pinside when they get discovered.

I hope so, I want achievements that are properly integrated with the pin. Things like playing modes in the order they appear in the film or play songs the order they were released. More than just score and switches.

What would be the purpose of this? It's basically a no harm no foul situation.

I guess for DLC or unlocking content it is valid concern for Stern. The whole thing about special achievements on location, I think it's just marketing for operators to buy the kit. If you your location is very pinball specific with a strong local market with weekly tournaments and things like that this might make sense. Those are the only route locations that I think this will even noticed as far as revenue for the operator. Achievements are literally the equivalent of a gold star on your fridge or calendar, there is only one person that gives a shit. No one is going to pay for new content and DLC for routed games but I could see people sharing them at home.

What would be the point, and why would anyone pay for this? Do you guys think a "verified" achievement is going to have some actual value?

It is a valid concern. Statistically the longer you engage or interact with a product the more likely you are to buy another product. The coding modifications people are doing keep the product fresh and it keeps people engaged. That in turns makes them more likely to buy in the future. So long as Stern provides alternate ways for people to stay engaged they should not lose any sales. They just need to ensure there are enough achievements or post launch content to keep people active. If they don't have enough new content and they take away peoples ability to engage themselves with a pin then they could be in some trouble. Stern has kinda been lucky lately that the mod community is so strong in pinball. That community has been driving engagement. Stern is just trying to take that market over. They don't really have a choice when you have licensed content you have to limit how much people can mess with it or the licensor will get pissed.

I think you are half right. I think it is designed for younger plays but I think this all about the home market. Stern wants all of our kids and younger friends to become home players and not just inherit pins they have no interest in. Stern has to see the writing on the wall of a massive part of the demographic aging out.

The whole "verified" achievement thing I think is pure marketing. The only routes I see this working on is barcades and pubs with strong health pin crowds that are running leagues and tournaments. Those locations would probably get a lot of sign ins and people enjoying the functionality. Sadly I think those places are already doing just fine so it is just going to be operators putting money in to appreciate their already loyal base.

$40 is really cheap, I am pleasantly surprised by how reasonable it is. I have no understanding of what people mean by paywalled content? Is the expectation that everything should be free forever? This functionality didn't exist for many of the pins that support it. Is that still considered paywalled?

I said early that there needs to be some definition of complete. I think every insert is implemented and the number of modes/wizard modes are listed. Adding online functionality or new modes years later is fair game as new content. Stern did get themselves into this mess with the state of code in games and how long it takes them to get it to "complete" if ever. Also shit like the UV kit was completely offside, everyone clearly paid for the feature up front.

Seems like a weird match to me. Calling them highly successful streaming services is a bit of a stretch. They had the properties but their transition to digital was a terrible. They just had a lock on the content so the consumer had no choice. The basically got left in the dust and then finally realized they better get on board. Their gaming division is pretty much non existent. If you looking for a guy from gaming this is kinda the bottom of the barrel.

Yeah that's true, I just can't figure out what I a guy with this background would bring to the table for Stern.

I think you guys are overreacting to the Disney thing. They are not at all involved with DLC, Lootboxes, or any kind of Free to Play model. Their streaming service has been weird with the whole pandemic but they were literally the last to give up on physical media and go digital. You guys are acting like Disney is in the gaming space.

ESPN+ is so shit it’s not available in Canada so I don’t know anything about it. When it comes to micro transactions, DLC and loot boxes I have done it all. Stern may try it but the only thing it makes sense for in pinball is licensed content. Let’s be real we all know how cheap Stern is when it comes to a license. Stern is so risk adverse and old school I just can’t imagine they touch the core experience. A monthly subscription sure but anything more than that they have to know how easy it would be to cook that golden goose.

$200 seems expected but super disappointing. As a home user I would like to just log in once on my pin and stay logged in. I don't need the scanner at all just seems pointless for $200, other than the fact that they will make it mandatory. I can't speak for guys with routes but $200 a pop could add up real quick, is it really going to be worth it for them?

Even on location I think they should have a phone app option. Other than the cross promotional stuff which does sound like a great idea. I think that vast majority of people that use this would just use a phone. It would have been so much more accessible if when you walked into a location it showed you the list of available pins and you clicked the one you wanted to play. I think the QR scanner has it's place but the made it hard for 95% to satisfy 5%.

I'm not saying that the scanner is pointless, clearly there are people out there that can't use a phone. I highly doubt if you don't have a phone you are going to figure this out or want to use it. If you feel that is your client base all the power to you I am happy Stern made it available and will collect a tidy profit. My issue is there are countless better solutions that most people will use at a fraction of the cost. The scanner locks out every home user and operator that doesn't want to spend $200, when this could have been $15. Can you imagine if your TV required a $200 scanner so you could log in to Netflix. Pinball is just so horrifically bad at this stuff people accept what would be a disaster in any other product as good.

I'm just all filled up with shitty QR codes for vaccine, if Stern thinks I need another one to play pin ball they are out of their mind.

They seem to be generally following what video games did. I would expect a monthly charge to be required when they add any kind of head to head or online play. I can't imagine them trying to charge just for achievements and basic stat tracking for users.