You're arguing with a guy who thinks you can trace sombodies art and call it your own legitimately.

You are correct you may be able to set this up based on your pin that can only occur at your specific location and does not interact with any other location. Stern will not go anywhere near this with their network but they may let you do it on your specific machine locally. If it has any kind of connectivity with their system or players in other legal locations it becomes a legalities nightmare that is way above this price point. It is just never going to happen.

The biggest issue is there is no incentive/method to avoid one guy mopping up every event. The basic high score format doesn't work for a population with significantly different skill bases. You are susceptible to the one guy rolling in, putting up big scores, and running off the competition and thus incentive to play. Quickly you see fewer and fewer people playing. The op tries to incentivize play by seeding the pot... but then finds the entry fees keep declining, and it becomes a losing proposition.

You can disallow paying out the same person multiple times, but when they've already run off the entries... it doesn't matter.

TOPS died its own death because it did not provide enough of a repeatable operator incentive to pay for it.

I actually said if you copy someone's art in a simple hand drawn sketch for a prototype that has no financial value and was most likely never meant to be public does not make you a thief and a piece of shit. Context matters.

if a free burger means that much too you, than by all means go ahead and "cheat"

I just recently enabled a tournament on the Spidey I just picked up. It's cool to here JK Simmons doing tourney specific callouts when you play a tournament game.

Or even just throwing some bones to your high spenders (who will most likely sign up) while not impacting your bottom line from anyone walking off the street. It's no different then a loyalty rewards program that numerous establishments already use but it's universal across all modern stern games. Don't have to worry if your location uses cash, tokens, or is on free play. I, as a player, don't have to create a million different accounts for each place I visit. Genius if you ask me.

What if the prizes are participation based and not merit based? ie: "Play a registered game on Mando in the next week to be entered into a draw for a t-shirt". This could work for both location based prizes as well as ones that perhaps Stern wants to sponsor.

I think some of you overthinking how people might "game" these incentives, and as many others have said those incentives will be up to the location and/or operator to manage in a way that makes sense both for their business as well as their patrons.

Note, the question was specifically about TOPS - Not Stern Insider.

Noted. My apologies, but it seems like there are similar concerns with Stern Insider Connected in this thread.

I think we need to be honest... We should expect a very limited set of functionality from Stern at the start... with a lot of future potential we will have to wait and see if they ever expand into. They've highlighted the ideas of promotions, reward redemption, etc... but will they really expand into co-marketing opportunities, etc?

This isn't Stern's core competency. This could be very much a chicken and the egg problem where Stern won't invest because there isn't immediate return for them... but there can't be return without a program given a chance.

We run monthly tops tournaments on our machines we have 13 of them. We average $250 per ToPS and depending on the game different people win. ToPS is a great way to boost earnings on games that people dont play as much for newer games. It has also gotten people who dont like to play in our weekly or monthly tournaments a chance to compete without the anxiety. We also used ToPS to hold our last three release events that way people could participate any time of the day.

You might think its dead but its a great system that works well for us.

Totally agree. I am excited to add this to the 10 games that we have assuming they dont charge us too much for the kit. (STh pro w/ UV needs a special kit which they havent brought up) Also depends on if they will charge some monthly fee.

The idea of breathing new life into older spike 2 games is amazing and will give us all a chance to play for different objectives.

As an operator that is interested in adding this, what are you willing to spend per machine? Just curious.

I have seen the video and there is a fine line between a promotional event with a prize or reward program and being able to cash out for money or goods earned in a competition. Different states/countries/regions all have different definitions or what defines gambling, competitive and addictive functionality. Maybe Stern doesn't realize this yet but they have to be very careful with how they reward anything in the real world, especially when that prize could be contested by people in different areas. Even rewarding points that you can use towards a prize you have to be very careful that you can't compete for points. You can collect and earn points by doing things but it get dicey if there is any kind of competition between people. I am sure Stern will have lawyers that sort all this out for them.

Bring back Bingo Pins !

See the bar owner for your payout.

The pinbar or Sternbar isn't the way.

Giveaways? not sure what you are asking. The kits will be a fixed price.

well some things may just be at the location / ops level.

But will need to say can't play for prizes in some states? Like golden tee?
Now one prize seen in the video is an full pinball machine?? They may need offer an free route to get into the prize draw. As just play XXX games makes it an like an lotto also cross state line tax issues?
As for earn points across state lines and top point earner wins an prize?? Stern is bigger target then the IFPA and OPS / arcades are bigger targets then some TD in the eyes of the law.

Pinball may be an game of skill but others laws make it so that you can't just say poker is an game of skill.

Now is stern taking an rake???

In some places they have mini sized bingos with payout hoppers

Now make one with TITO and players club (not sterns but the locations own system)

I meant what are you willing to pay for the kits? Put another way, what do you think is a fair price ti retro fit you games?

Pinball purists bitching about this new technology and how it's useless, unneeded, cumbersome, executed improperly, offers achievements or rewards they are not interested in or whatever, don't realize how huge this is going to be for them too. This is going to be an absolute monster game changer of a development tool for Stern. Once they figure out how to use the data, they are going to make better games than ever. They will be able to get gameplay data from thousands of users of all types, not just anecdotal evidence from test locations or audits from a few trusted operators.

They will be able to tell if a ramp shot is too hard and people aren't getting to modes. They will be able to determine replay value if a game is too hard or too easy etc. Users constantly blow up a multi-ball shot, get massive scores and don't bother to come back? Okay we'll change that and make the game more challenging and more fun. Being able to track individual users will give them gameplay data from casual players and pros, and they'll be able to tell the difference. They will know what makes games earn on location, they'll know what people do at home. So even if you have no interest in any of the features, rest assured pure pinball is only going to get better because of it. Games will be engineered to be more fun and you're gonna buy more of them.

There will be some that will argue that pinball design should remain "art" and not "science".

I'm with you though, we've had decades of art, let's see what's possible doing it with science.

You are giving Stern WAY too much credit.

They could do all this stuff but there’s nothing in their history that suggests they will. Everything you mentioned used to get looked at with pre-release location testing. They certainly aren’t going to make physical changes to existing games based on the data. Maybe some software tweaks but that’s not likely either. This is all about marketing the existing product, not improving it.

Come on man.... You haven't seen software improvements?

I had Stranger things very near launch and had direct emails with Brian Eddy. I sent him audit logs and feedback. The code changed a ton over time and now the game is sought after.

They have updated code on every release to improve their games because they want to make them better.

That's the anecdotal evidence from a small sample size I was referring to.

Of course not, but they could change the software to increase the reward or change the necessity of a difficult shot. They might also use it to make sure they don't revisit difficult geometry.

What history?

THe product hasn't even been released yet.

I think it would be great if there was some way to pay for your games using the app and scanning your profile in. You'd obviously have to verify the purchase on your phone after scanning into the game.

And say you win a game with a post game match or high score. It puts that credit into your account. Would be really nice since sometimes my best games are when I'm running late or need to get back to the table because the food is arriving.

This would be cool but a feature like this would have to be locked to a specific operator so you can't get free games on one operator's machine and then spend it on another operator's machine.

Yeah that should go without being said.

This could also lead to other offers at establishments. Where you get a free game of pinball with your lunch pizza meal or something. Credit goes directly into your account.

The ranking/achievement system is from video games. I think about competitive video game communities. There's 2 things they really hate.

- Randomness/Variance of any sort. aka: RNG, "No items, Fox Only, Final Destination."
- Cheating or even the perception cheating is possible.

Even at the highest competitive level what really makes pinball different from video games is the randomness that only a physical machine can deliver. Even in the best virtual pinball simulations with the highest quality physics you can sense it's not the same. No 2 tables are alike and even the strictest tournament settings still allow for a lot of random things to happen. Anyone can do whatever they want to their own machine, but in tournaments anti-cheat/game integrity is secure because you're all playing the same table and policing one another.

Are either of those going to fly with the players who are going to be most invested in this system and willing to increase their coin drop because of it?

When either ends up affecting profitability/adoption of the system, Stern will have to respond. In the long term, I worry the price will be paid in the form of code, rules, features and general game design that trade away some of the fun and randomness unique to pinball.

That's going to affect everyone. Even the people who never make an account and never play in tournaments.

Lots of good points in here. I think I agree that as a metric to compare two players it'll never really be taken very seriously-- but I also think that's ok! We already have IFPA rankings for the truly competitive players, right?

I think 80% of Stern IC users will consider the achievements as another form of player vs machine ("Hey, I have a few more achievements to get on Led Zeppelin, so maybe I'll get one more beer and play a couple more games before I head out") as opposed to player vs player ("I need to get all these achievements to improve my achievement ranking on Stern IC."). If there is a player vs player element to it, maybe it'll just be more casual. For example, your buddy mentions that he got the "Bee Gees" achievement for getting 400 disco spins on Deadpool in a single game, and you say "Maybe I'll play a few games and see if I can do that too!"

Personally I expect to care very little about my total "achievement score," and more about whether or not I was able to get that tricky Jurassic Park achievement, 1-up a friend, stumble into an achievement I didn't know existed, etc.

Edit: I guess what I'm saying is it doesn't have to be "the" thing. It can just be "a" thing.

We rarely ever had any issues getting stuff from Stern in my area for local tournaments or leagues. I'm not sure if you meant "drop" as one shipment, or meaning as a slow flow. What they sent us any time one of our people requested stuff was very generous, I feel. Sure, you can tell that the stuff they send out are "seconds" (over-saturated translites, primarily), but it's better than it going to a landfill, and it's more than adequate for wall art.

Getting 2-4 translites and a bunch of flyers won’t feed ongoing promotions.

I just won a Jurassic Park shooter knob at a launch tournament for AIQ. Not the whole assembly, but a legit Stern amber shooter know. They send some good stuff for those things.

Again... key words here.. 'wont feed ONGOING promotions'

Your event got one shooter rod - Very nice. That is certainly one of the rarer occurrences. Typically it's a token plaque and a translite or banner... and swag for maybe 2 prizes.

But this example is not the same as funding ONGOING promotions at locations everywhere with multiple winners. Like "complete a set of trophies and get a t-shirt".. at hundreds of locations around the country each awarding what could be dozens of winners, etc. That's a whole different level of commitment.

Some further thoughts for discussion:

1. As a primarily home based pinball player with a 10 and 13 year old the family competition for all of the minor high scores on our pins gets pretty fierce. I'm looking forward to printing off some Qr codes for the kids as well to try for more of the new awards

2. in regards to the above discussion on problems with parity in a TOPs tourney, would a golf-like handicap system be doable using insider connected? Basically if you're a really good player you're awarded your score on the screen, those of us who are mere pinball mortals get extra points which adjusts the better we play on average.

3. Speaking of the 10 year old, she loves these new arcade games (batman and minecraft) that award a card when you play well. You can then use the card to start a character the next time you play with better skills, weapons, tools etc. (these games are damn expensive btw, steer your children away).

Something similar could be used in pinball so that Xaqery Dwight sullivan could finally make his RPG pinball game. I roll up to the pin with my Level 80 (start deeper in the game) Rogue (longer ball save) with Twin Daggers of Venom (opponent has slowed flippers).

What I find baffling is how many of you are condemning the product before it's released and before you know much of anything about it. A few positive thinkers out there but most of you are apparent prophets telling of microtransactions, paid DLCs, monthly fees, security breaches, etc. JFC guys, can we at least wait for Stern to fuck up before talking this amount of shit? You guys are toxic af. Maybe take a second and dream a little on the positive side. Half glass full type stuff.

I gotcha, Flynn. I understand what you're saying. You're right there. If the plan is to provide swag on Stern's side, NOT the location/route op doing it....I don't know how that is going to work either.

Uh, maybe because all of these things have already happened on console and PC games. I'm sure Stern has a bigger budget than...oh... Epic Games, right? You know...the guys that make Fortnite?

This statement is really akin to what people have said in the past about scam pinball companies, price increases in the industry ("Why's everyone freaking out, it's only a few hundred dollars more!"... sure...every 6 months it's a few hundred dollars more than 6 months ago), DLC in videogames (Anyone remember "horse armor" in TES4:Oblivion, and how the argument was split 50/50 on if DLC would become a big deal or not. I said it wouldn't...I was clearly wrong.) etc...

There's a very obvious trajectory here, and while I don't think DLC in pinball is the end of the world (I largely ignore gaming DLC on consoles and PC and don't feel like I've missed much!), it would be really stupid of Stern to pass on an obviously proven successful revenue stream. To believe at this point that these companies are giving ANYTHING away for free is....well....

I was surprised at first by your post. Then I realized you've only been here for under a year.

Welcome to Pinside.

Generally I think this is awesome and going to really positive for pinball. The only thing that concerns me is, Stern has made a couple of inexperienced decisions. I’m not sure if they brought anyone in from gaming that has experience. There is a right way to do this and it took gaming decades of wrong decisions to figure out the right way. Actually it is not a right way, there is a good path in the right direction. It takes work and constant learning to stay on that path in the right direction. I just hope they don’t just try and figure this out on their own because they will fail and I don’t know how many chances they have to get it right.

Interesting development. However, I am getting flashbacks to Stranger Things UV kits and Jurassic Park topper-only game modes.

My prediction is that Stern will eventually stop producing Pro, Premium and LE versions of games. Instead, every game will have a fully-featured playfield, but the coolest features will only be accessible to those with an Insider subscription who have checked in to play. I can imagine upper playfields with gates at the entrance ramps which only open for certain players. If you're not a subscriber, a message on the screen will say: "To enter this playfield area, please purchase a Stern Insider subscription".

These are the failings of the gaming industry. We learned the hard way never separate your audience. It’s like a house party that you sell VIP access to the kitchen. Everyone that isn’t in the kitchen just goes to a different party. Everyone left in the kitchen realizes the part is dead and goes home. As soon as you see the party start to dip you give out a couple free rounds or kick off an event. Then start drink specials on the hour till dawn. You have to balance it thought, drinks can’t be too strong or to weak. Then your next party everyone is like that last party was a banger that went all night.

You are wise.

Hopefully Stern is smart enough to take most of the criticism here with a grain of salt. We will be adding this system to all available games as soon as it launches.

Will be doing the same. Excited for what this will bring to the games.

Hell yeah! I would've came out even if you only had it on that bad ass DEJP you used to have!

I'm pretty excited about this development and see alot of potential to transform on location play for the better.
Some operators probably won't take the time to delve into this right away until they see it in action. I hope
that at the next major Pinball event that Stern puts together a helluva show to showcase what this can do.

One thing I haven't seen discussed is something that has been on my mind for awhile.
Changing some of the mechanics on how games are paid for. THIS seems a step in the right direction.
I imagine it would be pretty cool if users could buy 'credits' that get routed to the 'operators'. This would
help fix what I see as dependency on physical currency aspect of pinball. Who carries cash these days.
Broken ATMs, Change machines - hey everyones got a smartphone these days... Be cool if vendors had
a "Native" system that just works... Thinking Apple Pay / Samsung pay / Bitcoin without to much of a usury fee.

From a Players & Home owners perspective. I think with the initial roll out the playing at "verified" locations is
a good fix for the short term.

However, as a Home owner who does not get the opportunity to go out a lot ( Why I have 16 games at home )
I ultimately want some means of verifying my play.

Lastly:

NFTs could be cool. Or Awards for playing at multiple locations.

Oh and is there going to be a leaderboard app on location ( Is this in game or just phone ) . I'm thinking back to the
trivia bar games with the display and rankings. Do we just get a big display and connect the HDMI to our machine and
go to the site to see stats?

What's the official list of games that will be included in the first rollout? I'm hoping Jurrasic Park and Elvira 3 are on
that list. BKOR to

Well hope to be able to test these at home in next couple months if my games are supported even partially.

I hope you're getting a good laugh at the expense of some of the bozo know-it-all's here